Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm bringing up the hybrid question I had before, because ultimately my thread was deleted for TOS noncompliance

Scenario: I hybridize Species X and Species Y specifically so I can legally sell them with no problems regarding possession limits in states which have such limits for native herps. LE can distinguish them from native herps because they possess traits not present in the native species. I'm not talking subspecies here, but currently-recognized distinct species.

The problem arises from the herp-keeping community, because "Hybrids could be released and threaten existing wild populations." On the other side, I can't breed the native species and keep it pure, even if I'm breeding for morphs (other than albino), because "LE can't distinguish WC from CB" and therefore I'd go over a hypothetical possession limit.

I know most people are against hybridization of herps, preferring to keep bloodlines pure and so on, but maybe that's just what the doctor ordered insofar as it would allow people to keep herps which clearly aren't WC. To a lesser extent, morphs would be the way to go as well, but some morphs aren't terribly different than mere aberrant individuals of their species.

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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris,

Actually, here in Ohio hybrids are regulated as well. People got busted by the ODNR last year for having red-ear slider/cooter crosses. Red-ear sliders were probably introduced and not really "native" and cooters certainly don't live in the Buckeye State. It just goes to show how retarded some aspects of these new regulations are. The Ohio ruling also covers albinos (not likely to be found in the wild). These things have nothing to do with conserving native Ohio herps.

Tim

>>Actually, here in Ohio hybrids are regulated as well. ...
These things have nothing to do with conserving native Ohio herps.

Yeah, I would agree based on the information you've provided. Maybe they're playing the "what if a whole bunch get loose/released and reproduce, driving out native species?" angle.

I'd still question the intent of the regs--are they to keep people from keeping herps (sounds like it) or is there some other rationale?
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris,

I don't think they're worried about animals getting loose. I do think they are looking for an easy way to nail people with a stupid fine and then issue press releases about how they're fighting "bad guys." Regulating albinos and hybrids that were obviously produced in captivity has nothing to do with conservation.

They also have a PIT tag regulation for any snake over 18". A PIT tag would kill an 18" rough green snake or ribbon snake. Killing the animals which you are trying to protect is not my idea of conservation.

This is nothing more than a ruling issued by people with big egos and small brains and is completely out of line with what other states are doing. From what I understand, there are at least two class action suits being filed against the ODNR about the PIT tagging issue.

Tim

Chris and Tim,
As a general rule, I’m in total agreement with you guys here! Breeding hybrids does solve a whole lot of problems associated with the WC vs. CB quandary, and it does not significantly increase the risks (in most cases) to wild populations that breeding natives can have. This is basically a win-win situation if LE folks stop and truly think about it.

One note though, a subcutaneous PIT tag won’t kill an 18’ snake (but an IP implantation can result in a high mortality rate in any animal regardless of size). I’ve put PIT tags in much smaller herps with no detectable mortality at all. Functionally, a PIT tag is just a sterile glass bead to the snake, and has no appreciable effect if inserted properly. However, the animals do have a rather noticeable lump where the tag resides under the skin in small individuals, and especially in snakes, this can result in irritation/rubbing, which can greatly increase the chance of tag loss.

Big Brother

BB,

You obviously have not seen the size of the tags and gauge of needle that the ODNR is distributing. It is obvious that they would kill a thin-bodied 18 inch snake.

Tim

Tim,
They’re not trying to use the cattle tags are they? No one should ever use a PIT tag on a herp larger than a grain of rice, which is about the size of the Trovan and AVID standard tags.
Big Brother

All I can say is that a friend (who got proper permits) asked me to tag his 28" albino black rat snakes. I took one look at the needle and tag and said "no way." I have experience in this sort of thing, and these tags and needles are way too big (sorry, I don't know the exact size and gauge). I think a 4-inch turtle would handle it better than a skinny 18-inch snake, but that might not be saying much - the procedure would still cause a great deal of discomfort to say the least.

Albino herps shouldn't have to be tagged or regulated. Some turtles, such as box turtles, each have a unique carapace pattern and can be documented simply by photography. Since this poorly thought out "conservation" plan had no grandfather clause, anyone keeping an eastern box turtle as a pet is a automatic criminal if they choose not to torture their animal with a PIT tag, pay annual license fees and be subject to inspections by the ODNR.

This sort of ruling makes law enforcement agents look like the "bad guys" to many people in the herp community - many of which support the regulation of wild caught animals.

Tim Spuckler