Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Read the below posts. I know Indigo's are tough snakes but I really dont think they stand a chance against a King thats even 2/3 its size. I know these posts are most times goofing around but I really think a King will take on and take out Indigo's that are bigger than they are.

Keith
-----

Just like I tell kids when I give snake lectures they are called kingsnakes because,///come'on ?/thats it,?,they are...""the KING of snakes"",hence the name ""kingsnake"",sure indigos are awsome snakes and definately have royal status but by no means as that of a king,,,,,,,,thomas
T&S reptile farm

Nice. Well said Thomas.

But incorrect. What do you think the English translation of Drymarchon is?

I always thought Drymarchon translated to "the most irridescent of turds lain by Lampropeltis". Ooops, my mistake.

Peace.

Will

LOL!

No, no...you got it all wrong. Lampropeltis translates to "Indigo turd".

I've personally witnessed a ringneck killing a kingsnake that was trying to eat it... the ringneck being many, many times smaller than the king.

Thats why the call em Ringnecks as thats what they do "ring necks" out in the wild LOL. One almost got me once but I luckily moved over an inch or 2 without incident whew!

Keith
-----

Ha, ha, ha! Introducing "whitey - the king killer" my albino northern ringneck. He has a special taste for NJ easterns.

Seriously though, that must have been one enormous ringneck to be attempting a king as a meal. Whitey has a tough time with guppies.

Will

Thats such cool lookin little snake ! What color is his belly ?

Keith
-----

It changes with every shed. Now it is pinkish-orange. The normal colored sibling unfortunately died in December because it simply would not accept any food. The albino is a very robust little snake, it will chase the tongs around the cage begging for fish.

The Superintendant of my school district discovered the albino and the sib on the floor of his hunting cabin along the NY/PA border in the fall. They were tiny, tiny hatchlings, still in their waxy egg skin. I really consider it a miracle that this one is still kicking.

Will

PS - Oh yeah, here it is in a battle royale with a guppy.

Dude thats a pretty graphic violent pic . I hope my Kings aint lookin over my shoulder it will ruin them LOL.

Keith
-----

yes ringnecks also deserve royal status every king ive ever fed one to died within 48hrs of consuming them!very toxic in someway,strange because ive witnessed several vipers eaten w/no effects and even a tx.coral eaten by a l.g.splendida w/no side effects at all! so royalty yes but fiiting of a king no,,,long live the king,,,,,,,,thomas

Ringnecks are known to kill ophiphagus snakes that consume them. Be it corals, king cobras, or kingsnakes, doesn't matter. The most likely explanation is a toxic secretion Diadophis releases from the cloaca as a defensive responce. Unfortunately though, this isn't quite toxic enough to create an immediate effect, so the poor little Diadophis is still killed and consumed, only to have it's molester die shortly thereafter. Oh, and for anyone reading this, kingsnakes are not called kings because they are the "king of snakes." That's simply a name referring to the fact that they will eat other snakes. Same reason O. hannah are called king cobras. If anything, I believe it would be more fitting to argue O. hannah as the king of all snakes. Think about, what other snake could compare to a venomous snake that can reach the length of a moderately sized reticulated python??
-Chance
River Valley Snakes

.

check it out...

http://www.indigosnakes.com/images/DS_DC_eats_king.jpg

from the looks of that pic i would guess and its only a guess thats about a 3ft.king and 6to7ft indigo,awsome snakes indigos,but by no means royalty,and IMHO pound for pound a king can/will take a indigo,kinda like lions and leopards we all know who the king is,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

That PIC shows me that the owner is an absolute A*sspipe!Do you think a 6 ft. king wouldn't do the same to a tiny Indigo,what is the point of that mismmatch,I mean that's pretty sad for someone to kill a snake for kicks.

Mike

You can't make this comparison. It makes no sense.
It's like saying a 40 lb bobcat could "whip" a 40 lb. jaguar.
yes, it could. Because at 40 lbs the jaguar is no where near mature and the bobcat is a full adult with developed muscles.

A kingsnake will most CERTAINLY take care of a young indigo of similar size. But indigos are MUCH bigger snakes....and as a mature adult there is no fat, gooey eastern or Florida king that is going to stand a chance with the biting, twisting, pinning, pulling apart, voilent attack of of 7' of solid muscle that is Drymarchon.

Steve G and many many others from S. Florida have seen adult indigos chowing on large adult Fl kings with some regularity.
They sometimes share habitat in the south...but in the north of the range, they don't really overlap much...you simply don't find eastern and Fl kings in the sandhills...the king populations just don't make it in the world of the US's most powerful and dominant (and SNAKE EATING) snake.

Here's a simple mathematical equation that will help you remember this since y'all seem to forget so much (write this in your planner or palm pilot or on your arm so you don't forget)

(1) Mature Drymarchon (1)Mature Lampropeltis = (1) Fat Drymarchon.

But...none of us are into cock fighting I must presume so we may never see it.

PS This is all in fun...I love kings too...

yeah,yeah,yeah indigos are mighty,but simply and sadly to the indigo folks are not "the king" of n.american colubrids,,perhaps a sir,or duke definately royalty but by no means the king,,long live the king,,,,,,,,thomas

Perhaps not the king, but more like the powerful Mongul that overpowers the King and devours him! No question about it. I have 2 Fl. kingsnakes each 13 years old and a 2 year old Indigo. My Indigo is indeed the more intimidating warrior.
-----
Miami Hurricanes #1
NATIONAL CHAMPS 83,87,89,91,01

np

I would put my money on Thomas' snake. Here is another pic of it.

Keith

-----

talk about one strangled indigo!

thats an awsome indigo must be 8ft and what close to 8-9lbs huh? well cleo my e.king is only 6ft3-4inches and only 'bout 4&half-5lbs. so no to your ? how fair is that?,now should these two beast have met in the wild at these sizes who's to say? how do we know they wouldnt simply respect each other and go on their way? even if both were hungry? we as keepers have no idea of what occurs in nature w.these animals,but we think we do, i have witnessed other snakes scared s%&#less at the mere sight of a king in the wild,im sure the same thing occurs w/indigos in the wild its called respect,,,cue' Aretha R_E_S_P_E_C_T just a lil bit,wooo'wooo,,sock it me sock it to me sock it me,,just a lil bit,,,,, anyway its my opinion the kingsnake is just that da'king,just like the lion is the king of the jungle(lots of stuff could/does kill them still the king!)the kingsnake is Da'king of ALL N.american snakes,,,,,,thomas

Thomas,

First of all, congrats on that monster, he is one of the finest examples I have ever seen. He must simply be shocking to look at in person. I hope to raise an eastern to those proportions one day.

Has your monster NJ eastern always been that white? My babies have developed very white bands and my 18 month old sub-adults are turning from greyish to brighter white with every shed. I was wondering if these New Jersey easterns go into a light pattern element fade, similar to what many of the southern getula experience. Also I (we all, I'm sure) would love to hear any life history that you have on that big boy. Thanks.

Will

Cleo was produced here in houston by Buzz Jheels(spelling?)in 1990 he is the treasurer of ETHS,Buzz told me he had caught the parents in ocean co.new jersey'88-'89,as far as his white I dont know,I got him at 8yrs.old and he was well over 5ft.then, and his bands were crisp white then as well,how do I know Buzz produced it? Is that the lady who had him purchased him at the ETHS expo in'90 and Buzz was the only person w/easterns at that time,also Buzz saw him and said hey!,!,,, I do have a female CH'02 from james parks that came from ocean co. when I got her, her bands were a lil cream/off white but since has whitened up just like cleo's she is a lil over 2ft.now and I hope to pair her up w/cleo in '05 breeding season.Cleo was brumated for the first time in '01 for '02 breeding season,I attemted to breed him to a very large fla.locale female eastern king,it was pretty funny as you could tell he had the instinct but didnt know what or how to do it(he had never seen or been w/another snake) he eventually did lock up w/the female but the female never did produce any eggs,he then went nuts about breeding went off food lost some weight,constant roaming but since has gained it all back,but because of the weightloss I have not brumated him since,but will this next winter,he eats 4 f/t lg.adult mice every 7to10days,the lady I got him from had fed him every friday since aquiring him,average size meals of 2to3mice from what she said he grew very slowly,I dont know,he was very fat when I got him and after consulting w/my vet.I put him on the 3to4 mice every weekto10days.I will get some current pics of him up soon,,,,,thomas

Hey

Im callin it reserve me a pair in 2005 ! LOL New pics of That snake and the female would be great especially that female as your male is the only Ocean Co. pic I have on the site.

Keith
-----

I look foreward to seeing more pics of that boy.

Will

I have been working with Eastern Indigos for a number of years. I also keep kingsnakes including a gigantic chain king that I have had for 20 years. This is one of those "my daddy can beat up your daddy" types of arguments. Sure, if the king got the right hold on to a SMALLER indigo, the indigo wouldn't stand a chance. But having witnessed an indigo killing and consuming a kingsnake as large as itself, there is no doubt that the couperi is the superior snake in strength with all other things being equal. Don't get me wrong; kings are perhaps one of the strongest constrictors; pound for pound. But to match them up against a husky and rock solid hard indigo, there's no argument about which one would prevail. Just my .02.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)

and kind of silly... but it's like arguing about the #1 college football team, it's hypothetical and prone to be skewed by the keepers prefered pet.

My take:

If I were at the receiving end of a bite from a big king or big indigo... and I got to choose, I'd gladly let the kingsnake bite me over the indigo.

An average adult male indigo will easily consume an average adult kingsnake or milksnake. The picture of the big kingsnake in this thread is cool. That may be near the limit of kingsnake size. You'd have to add 2-3 more feet and about 2 times the weight of that kingsnake to reach near the limit of the biggest indigos, about 9 feet.

We're also comparing the biggest species of kingsnakes against the Eastern Indigo, which isn't the biggest species of Drymarchon. Yellow Tail Cribos (South American Indigos) get to 10 feet.

BUT!....You want pound for pound bada$$, the Mussurana will wrap and eat any kingsnake, milksnake, or drymarchon of equal size. They are probably capable of killing (but not swallowing) either kings or indigos larger than themselves. Clelia are best described as Kingsnakes on PCP. On top of their freakish constriction, they are rear fanged and add a little venom to the mix... although even without the venom they are the toughest.

I keep Mussuranas and Indigos and I've kept several kingsnakes in the past. The order is obvious to me.

I love the topic. Glad we're keeping it real

Doug T

Ok..........I got 2 choices 4 you Doug.

Would you rather have a.....

1)7'Indigo bite your arm
or
2)6' King wrapped around your neck

hmm'....think I'd have to go with numba' 1.

Mike

wrapped around the neck. It would take about 5 seconds to remove it... less if I didn't care if I hurt the snake.

Thomas posted a couple pictures of a big kingsnake. Now seriously look at the way the snakes need to be held. The king sits comfortably in the mans hands and forearms. The big indigo posted by Dean has to be supported across her shoulders.

I know this topic has been king of North American snakes... 'cuz once we leave the continent, Papuan Pythons are probably the top non-venomous snake eating snake. King Cobras got the venom which puts them probably on top of the entire heap.

Kingsnakes are just average colubrid constrictors. Now I've seen some big Pituophis that would do well in a hypothetical "No Holds Barred-Steel Cage Match" against a big bull indigo.

Now if one considers North America to include everything North of the isthmus of Panana, which for the sake of this thread I will, the order of Badd-A$$ is simply this:

#1 Mussurana
#2 Indigos/Cribos
#3 Kingsnakes (With big pituophis arguably in the #3 spot)

Keep in mind, the indigo keepers who have spoken up here for the most part are experienced with kingsnakes, or even currently keep them in their collections. I've personally kept 4 or 5 kingsnakes. They don't match up. Sorry.

Doug Taylor

i agree that big pits(n./s. pines, bulls) have some awesome power, after all, there isnt a rodent or small furry critter in the us safe from them, but even a 6 foot pine is in trouble from a 5-5.5 foot eastern. im not proffessing eastern kings to be the baddest snakes there is, but pits are adapted to eating rodents, and i doubt they would know what the hell to do with a king wrapped around their neck. pits use the front 1/4-1/2 of their body for constricting, kings use their entire body. its kind of like judo vs karate. different techniques.

now, a mussurana, that is a real snake killer. wish i knew where to find one of those boys..

Sorry for the obvious biased kingsnake lovers. But having kept a wide variety of kingsnakes, from Cal.Kings all the way to Outerbanks kingsnakes over the years, and having kept and bred both them and Eastern Indigos over the last 11 years, I would have to say that the Eastern Indigo would rank as the victor in a showdown between the two, ifthe sizes were approximate or the Indigo was larger. Easterns in the have a WIDE palate, which can include not only other snakes,(As well as kingsnakes) but turtles, frogs, birds, rats. mice, and even baby alligators. Given their propensity to consume almost anything that is of appropriate size that crosses their path, it isnt to far fetched to visualize them eating a large kingsnake. Indigos are very fast snakes, expeically when they are in feed mode, and as anyone can attest to that has kept them, they are more than willing to grab their prey mid-body, backwards, or head first, all with various degrees of success in the otucome.

My opinion...

The Eastern Indigo, especially a large male, would be the lone snake left in the introduction...but it would be a fat one for sure.

Thanks

Fred Albury