Reptile & Amphibian Forums

np
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0.1 Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 ball python (felix)
1.1 feral cats (Fuzzy, and Bear; it used to be fuzzy, wuzzy, bear)

tank. That is 13X30 for a trio. But again, you have to account for babies too. Otherwise I put groups of 1.2 to a 1.4 in 18X24 cages....these are wire cages with a wheel even. But, when I go to grow babies to 3 or 4 weeks old it has loads of room. Some of it will depend on how long you are raising babies for. If you are gonna cull half as pinks or fuzzies that is way different than taking them to weaning and then out to grow beyond in another enclosure. If you count the biomedical information and take the babies into account....that is say 40sq" for each adult female (400grams) another 70sq" for an adult male over 500grams (all my boys get there easy) Then you are going for 17sq " for each baby. You are really squeezing them in there.
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

I was thinking if i could use a rubbermaid storage thing like the one here: http://rubbermaid.com/hpd/consumer/product/detail.jhtml?prod=HPFG3B1300WHT&attributeId=HPATT1001&nextType=noValue¤tType=HPCAT02&locationId=LOC00001&thirdMenuIndex=1
and put one rat in each compartment and when i want to breed place the male in with the female for like 10 days.
would that work?
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0.1 Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 ball python (felix)
1.1 feral cats (Fuzzy, and Bear; it used to be fuzzy, wuzzy, bear)

>>I was thinking if i could use a rubbermaid storage thing like the one here: http://rubbermaid.com/hpd/consumer/product/detail.jhtml?prod=HPFG3B1300WHT&attributeId=HPATT1001&nextType=noValue¤tType=HPCAT02&locationId=LOC00001&thirdMenuIndex=1
>>and put one rat in each compartment and when i want to breed place the male in with the female for like 10 days.
>>would that work?

You could but you will have to modify it to make it work. Likely you will find that the drawers, when closed, will allow the rats to reach a ledge between the drawers and hang and chew. So, a layer of hardware cloth there. And, of course, drill or melt some ventilation. I personally don't like rats in tubs as by the time you get holes enough to accomodate a larger animal in a plastic tub it is a lot of work. With the drawers you won't have the advantage of airflow over and out the top. Don't know what that unit runs but I buy the tubs I use for mice for less than $5 each and then you have airflow over a top with holes or wire and you have the freedom to put them whereever.
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

I would not house mouse/rat in those draws they are ecape artist. It has to be something secure and unable for them to chew through, I think those draw systems are easy task for rats I had many escapes not from those but sterilite pans with mesh wire and wood top. Anything that rats can grab a hold of in plastic containers they will chew

I wouldn't use the drawer system either, though I never have used them myself. Rats are social and won't like being housed all by themselves for the most part. Better to get the 150 L or there abouts rubbermaid Roughneck tubs and house 1:3 in there comfortablely. It's what i use for my rats and they are breeding nicely. I have two litters already going and one on the way and everybody is getting along happily. Just cut a section out of the lid and cover with hardware cloth for ventilation. The only time I had a rat escape from these containers is when I forgot to close the lid. She jumped up to the edge, climbed up teh lid (which was hinged), jumped onto my workbench, over to my computer desk, down to my chair (I am assuming, anyway, didn't actually see any of this) and made her way to the floor after that. I found her in the other room where my males were being kept at the time. I was waiting for my first pair of females to grow a bit older before breeding them.

I have been breeding rats for the last 20 years. Up until a couple months ago, all I had was a single 20 gal. tank (regular, not long) and a 12 by 12 wire cage. In that 20 gal., I have very successfully kept 1.3 and 1.4 groups. (1.5 groups is too crowded.)

Once there are babies, I feed some off as they grow and if they make it to weanlings before I need them as feeders, I move them to the wire cage. Then, if I have too many in the wire cage, I give my python most of them all of them...he's been known to put down 25-30 small rats in an evening.

As long as there is steady food, there is no cannibalism and they grow and reproduce just fine. (I have always used dog food for them and commercial rodent food is too low in protein for nursing mothers.) If on rare occassions, I do find a rat cannibalizing, I feed it off and raise a new one to replace it. Some rats cannibalize for no apparent reason and once they start, I do not keep them. And, like I said, it doesn't happen very often.

My point is, they don't NEED a lot of space. They do need food, water and clean bedding. They don't need excercise wheels, toys and such...it sounds like boring existance but we're not rats. They spend most of their time sleeping and grooming themselves (and eachother); not a lot of space is required for those types of activities! LOL!

I don't know how big your 10 gallon tanks are but I have one right in front of me. There is no reason why I trio cannot be kept in one as long as their offspring aren't left to grow beyone weaning.

To the person that asked the question, just try a trio. It will work out just fine. Freeze the babies as they grow to the desired size for your single snake and you'll have a constant source of food.

I've done the same.. kept 1.2 group in a ten gallon tank... no problems at all.. Right now I have about 16 in a 55 gallon breeder tank. As long as its kept clean and fresh water..fresh food.. then there's no problem at all.. I've had ONE instance of cannabilism and that was the fault of one female in there.. she got fed off.. never had another problem.
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
2.2 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 1 het Blizzard (Lilith) and 1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
5 Gerbils
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
2 cats (Sahara and Hercules)

Actually pet rats DO need alot of space. 2 cubic ft per rat. But since these are not pet rats we are talking about pet rats I won't go into it.

Take a 10 gal roughneck rubbermaid.

Get the 1/4 hardware cloth and make a "basket" the same dimensions as the inside of the rubbermaid, make it hang out the sides a little.

Take the lid and cut a large square out, BOLT the hardware cloth (1/2 inch) down with a bolt, a washer on each side, and a nut. I put the flat side of the bolt on the inside so they can't hurt themselves on the edge of the bolt. I put 4 on the long side, and 3 on the short side.
Take the 1/2 hardware cloth and make a food drop, real easy, just make a square and I secured it with electrical ties. You can also sit your water bottle in the food basket and keep it in one place with the wire hanger that comes with it.

Then put in your bedding, add rats.

The rats can't chew through the hardware cloth, and when you go to clean you just (obviously take the rats out first)lift the "basket" out and all the bedding comes with it!

The rat can't chew, and it's easy to clean!

The intial thing cost about 25 dollars, that includes the hardware cloth, rubbermaid, bolts, nuts and washers. That does not include the rat food, rats, water bottle or bedding.

That is what I did anyways.
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1.1 Ball Python, 0.1 motley amel corn, 0.1 western hognose

But I can understand that you CAN do it. Is it gonna have to be cleaned every other day? Yup. Are the babys gonna be stacked on top of each other? Yup. When there are babies are you gonna have to clean every day? Yup.

A ten gallon tank is 10X20...that is 200sq. inches. My males are well over a pound....that is (by the biomedical peoples estimate) AT LEAST 70 of that 200sq"...that leaves 130 for your two girls at say....50sq" each...YUP, you are right. You CAN fit them in. But what about all the living space of the babies? What about a little bit of living space to get away from the babies? They are 'just feeders' but they are living beings.
No, I don't think you should do it.
Aside from comfort for the animals I don't have the time or money for bedding to change them every other day. I need to raise my babies to 50 grams...that is three weeks of say.....2 dozen(minimum) plus bodies in a 10X20.....Don't think so. Nor do I think it is good advice to someone starting out.
And BTW, I will call your 20yrs experience and raise you 10 more.
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

My point was that it can be successfully done and you've made your points too, Sonya.

I don't wish to argue this out further but I do have one thing to add regarding space and the measurements thereof. No matter how much space you give them, 98% of the time, they'll be cuddled up or "stacked" on top of eachother anyway. Rats are very social and have no personal space. Therefore, per-rat space is relative.

On the side issue, regarding "good advice" to someone starting out, you're very right. When I participate here, I don't even think about the fact that I'm not always speaking to peers and assume everyone here is smart and/or somewhat experienced. You're right...not everyone is on the same level. Hopefully I can dumb it down without being condescending. I'll have to work on that.

I suppose a better way to word this issue would be, "Yes, it can be done but it is not recommended because..." adding reasons, and leaving it at that. It is up to the owner of the animal to do what he or she feels is best for them and their pets. And, of course a smaller cage has to be cleaned more often. That goes without stating. (I clean my 20 gallon every other day or close to that. I clean my cement tub bins every 3 days. Rodents have to be cleaned frequently otherwise it does get stinky.)

Loved your poker analogy, by the way. LOL!

Not going to argue any points about how big a tank rats can be put in, Sonya has done that well enough. Just want to make a point about rats sitting around all day ontop of eachother or sleeping. I don't know about your rats, but mine are very active, mostly in the evening, but they are jumping all over the place, running around, jumping up to the rim of the tubs I keep them in when I open them to feed them and check their water. Even the older males are highly inquisitive and interested when I come feed/water them every day. I think if they do have more room, your rats would be more active as well.

:

Rats are very social and have no personal space. Therefore, per-rat space is relative.

Mine don't lay around all that much. Mine wrestle like puppies, run on the wheel (endlessly!) and like to be able to get some free time away from the others, especially a mom trying to wean a litter.

Hopefully I can dumb it down without being condescending. I'll have to work on that.

I don't think it is a matter of dumbing down so much as generalizing. Yes, I have had rats do this BUT, chances are good that they will do that too.
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>>I suppose a better way to word this issue would be, "Yes, it can be done but it is not recommended because..." adding reasons, and leaving it at that.

Exactly.

It is up to the owner of the animal to do what he or she feels is best for them and their pets.

They will anyway, so why fight it.

And, of course a smaller cage has to be cleaned more often. That goes without stating. (I clean my 20 gallon every other day or close to that. I clean my cement tub bins every 3 days. Rodents have to be cleaned frequently otherwise it does get stinky.)

MANY folks on here don't want to clean that often. Heck, I don't clean any of my rodents more often than every 10 days or so. Even mice don't smell if bedded in a big enough cage and on absorbent bedding. But once you add a couple litters of pups....yikes.
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>>Loved your poker analogy, by the way. LOL!

Yeah, well, I am getting old and not afraid to admit it.
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

The babies play around and wrestle but none of my adults ever have.

How do you go 10 days between cleanings?!!? The longest I've ever been able to go, even with just 2 rats in a 20 is a week.

You ever notice how stinky rats are right after they've given birth? I am not sure what it is but without fail, their waste is especially odorous for about 3 days...maybe from eating the placenta, etc...?

I dunno.. I've successfully raised 14 pups to weaned in a 10 gallon tank with a 1.1 pair.. I've kept 1.2 in a ten gallon and had litters.. though at the time I was pulling litters early for my Monitor... Now I keep between 12 and 20 in a 55 gallon breeder long tank... with 2 water stations and 2 feed stations... I weed down my males.. keep and grow most of my females out... keep 2 males to service the colony and it keeps producing for me. *L* I'm working out an idea for a rack.. or how to build something from Rubbermaid bins (Since I can't find any with completely smooth sides) with wire lining the inside so they can't chew...
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
2.2 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 1 het Blizzard (Lilith) and 1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
5 Gerbils
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
2 cats (Sahara and Hercules)

That's what I'm using now and I like it a lot. The bin system is so much easier than cleaning a tank or two. In fact, I can clean 4 bins (with 4-5 rats and babies) in the time it takes me to clean one 20 gallon tank, with 3-4 rats and babies.

DeMak gave me my first 3 and I spent this past weekend making 4 lids for 4 more, effectively doubling my rat colony. Yay! Next will be a rack to hold them in. Right now, I've got them stacked, cris-crossed, on top of eachother. It works but it makes it hard to check to see if they need more food, as I have to move the whole pile to get to the bottom. LOL!

Anyway, I've found that the converted plastic containers, where you cut out the center of the lid and bolt hardware cloth to it, are not chew-proof. Whereas with the black cement tubs covered with a hardware cloth covered frame is.

>>The babies play around and wrestle but none of my adults ever have.
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>>How do you go 10 days between cleanings?!!? The longest I've ever been able to go, even with just 2 rats in a 20 is a week.
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>>You ever notice how stinky rats are right after they've given birth? I am not sure what it is but without fail, their waste is especially odorous for about 3 days...maybe from eating the placenta, etc...?

I bed my rats in rabbit pellets / cellsorb plus / yesterday's news. So the cost is higher than shavings but it lasts way longer. Usually it is rabbit pellets as they are only $8 for 50#. About half an inch layer. Started doing it when I had a bad myco flare up years ago and got sick of fighting with the reactions to their bedding. The pelleted beddings really drop the incidence of uri. I do give boxes and sometimes paper towel for birthing....just so the pellets don't stick to new wet babies.

With mice I throw a handful of rabbit pellets in each corner of the tubs and fill the rest with shavings and that lasts WAY longer than just shavings. The only time it doesn't last over a week is if I have a couple dozen hoppers in there too. I change them when I notice a smell when I open the top to feed at night.

Ironically the darn dwarf hamsters, that aren't supposed to smell, are really ammonia smelling lately. I just knocked down their numbers though. They tend to breed and get ahead of my culling and then I notice I have a tub full.

Gerbils are cake. They never smell anyway. Now if they just bred more consistently.

I always thought the smell post partem on rats was just the blood/ placenta. I usually spot clean right after a birth so that works for me.
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

I had forgotten about that. LOL! I used some for a little while and yes, I did get to go a week or more in between changes. It was so nice to smell the pleasant alfalfa instead of "rat" or "urine" or "placenta." LOL!! Pine shavings are a lot cheaper though so I didn't keep doing it after I ran out of rabbit pellets. Now that you mentioned mixing it, maybe I'll pick up a bag and put a couple handfuls into the pine with the next changing. I miss the alfafla smell.