Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi all, I have a very pretty '01 banana king who is confusing and frustrating the heck out ouf us! I purchased this snake last year at a White Plains show, and the breeder/seller allowed me to probe before purchase (I suck at popping)...it sure felt and looked like a female to me. Then he probed and popped and agreed with me. I brought the snake home, thrilled that I had a nice new female I'd probably be able to breed next year.
Well a couple of months ago a friend of mine wanted me to show him how to probe a snake. I first probed one of my males, then grabbed out Princess to show how a female probes. The snake probed like a girl on one side, but then, much to my confusion, probed like a boy on the other! I repeated the process a couple more times with the same result. I attempted to pop her as well, but since I suck at popping nothing came out. I put the snake away and proceeded to scratch my head for a while.
I checked again about a month ago, same results. I noticed Sasheena's new Tigris and Euphrates kings a few days ago, and immediately thought that if Princess turned out to be a male they would make some beautiful babies together, and wrote her about he/she/it.
I had a friend who is good at popping come over last night, and I once again probed, he agreed, one side female, other side male. Then he popped...nothing. That poor snake is probably really mad at us cause we were at it for a while, and he/she/it probably has a very sore butt. Glad it has a nice attitude!
So, guys, what do you think? Unfortunately I don't have a digital camera, I am going to try and get/borrow one soon. But to outward appearances the snake LOOKs like a girl to us. There aren't many herpers experienced enough to help with this where I live, lol, I'm the one they all bring their snakes to for sexing...the 'Snake Lady'. I have never seen this happen before, in all my years of dealing with snakes. Methinks maybe a vet visit is in order?

A few thoughts.

@ I thought popping was reserved only for hatchlings, and is either impossible to do on older animals or not recommended due to the trauma to the snakey.

@ If it is a male, could it have a missing hemipene, as in either a congenital defect, or perhaps an accident resulting in loss of one of the two? Could that make it probe "female" on the one side?

@ If you DO get a digital camera, make sure to take as detailed pictures of the tail, and pictures of the whole snake that include detail on the tail.

@If you have a very good vet who knows snakes you might find that a vet visit could help.

@of course you can always trade her/him with me and if SHE breeds with our male snakes, then of course we'll know. I think that is one of the most surefire way of telling. Put "her" with a male, if they hook up, I think it's a safe bet she's a shee. If she only seems interested in the girl snakes and breeds with them, then of course she will be a HE.

@ is it possible to probe a female as a male on one side due to congenital defects on her part? Again I'm not sure on these issues. I've never probed or popped and hope to have the local herp society help me learn when it comes to defining the genders of my hatchlings. I did, however, watch and SEE Kathy Love explaining the process in detail, and it LOOKS easy to pop the snake. Good thing about popping, if I can figure that out I'll know at least for sure about the males being males. I plan on attempting this method with my hatchlings (oh WHEN will they HATCH) and only asking questions about those that don't pop and should, therefore, be female.

The good thing is that if she turns out to be a female and we find this out by breeding her, well then you have a whole bunch of snake eggs too. Same goes if it's a he.

Good luck and I look forward to the pics. Wish I was able to help more.
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

The most likely situation is that you have a female and that you tore the anal gland on one side with the probe, allowing the probe to go in deeper on that side. This is not that uncommon.

I agree with the previous reply that you cannot "pop" snakes much older than a few days. Their retractor muscles become strong enough to resist being popped.

With kingsnakes, I find that it is often easy to sex adults by the shape of the tail. Males have a "muscular" tail that is broad at the vent and stays that way for a while before tapering off. Female's tails will often widen immediately posterior to the vent, but taper off very quickly. The male's tail looks thick and muscular while the female's tail often looks there is some sort of inflammation just posterior to the vent.

Here is a diagram of what I am talking about. getula are usually easy to sex as adults this way -

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Chris Harrison

Most people "suck' at "popping" adult male snakes. As Chris and Sasheena pointed out, this is normally done only on hatchlings.

As Chris pointed out, it is possible to "punch through" a female snake, making it appear to probe as male. I've seen this happen a number of times. It normally doesn't seem to really cause an issue, the snakes in many cases have still been able to breed and carry on normally, but I'm sure it ain't good. There's always the risk of infection. Ways to help avoid this occurrence are:

1. Know what you are doing. There is a technique for probing snakes. If you don't know the proper technique, then get someone who does to teach you. Very little pressure is actually required to insert the probe.

2. Always use the largest probe you can reasonably expect to fit into the inverted hemipene. This greatly reduces the risk of punch-through. I much prefer ball-end probes, as they reduce this risk even further.

One thing that can occassionally happen is a condition known as a "sperm-plug". This is an accumulation of seminal fluid that begins to dry and cake inside the hemipene and will stop the probe from being easily inserted in one or both sides. It usually is shed with the skin, so a probing before and after a shed can show different results.

Not trying to suck up to you, oldherper, but you've once again done an excellent job of providing the right info. (ie, you and i agree on these points, therefore you must be a genius)

terry

I agree with Chris...but I would like to add that sexing snakes by probing or popping is stressful and can damage the snake. If I were you I would stop trying to sex it or it may never breed (male or female) or it could have problems breeding. If you have to know bring it to a vet and have an x-ray done, but ither way stop messing with its "butt".

OK people....I've had enough. Except for Sasheena, the rest of you who have posted here so far in response to my original post have treated me like a complete imbecile. Making fun of my language & terminology, ie 'butt' and 'suck', and responding with a general condescending attitude. Excuse me if I decided to use everyday language here instead of scientific jargon. And, although your advice may be helpful and correct a lot of the time, I've seen you treat others, particularly people who OBVIOUSLY know no better, newbies, the same way.
When it comes to kingsnakes in particular I am NO DUMMY. I guarantee I've been into these animals longer than most of you people here, and although I am no papered biologist,(neither are a lot of you, might I add) I have studied and worked beside some of the best in the business at home and in the field.
I simply asked a qestion about something I've never run across before, and I get treated this way. Well, I don't think it's right, and I don't think I'll be posting here much longer because of it. You people need to check your attitudes at the door.

OK people....I've had enough. Except for Sasheena, the rest of you who have posted here so far in response to my original post have treated me like a complete imbecile.

I don't see any evidence of anyone mocking you or even being condecending. I interpret the fact that people used quotation marks to represent that they are using a word in a non-standard way (such as when I referred to the a male snake's tail as muscular). I didn't read any tone of mockery in anyone's post.

I guarantee I've been into these animals longer than most of you people here

It isn't a contest (and if it was, I doubt you would win. There are many here with 2-3 decades of experience, and more). You posed a situation that many had experienced before. Those people with experience, related it to you. Sorry if we didn't use enough deference in our replies.

BTW - any chance you had of being treated with a modicum of deference went out the window with this knee-jerk assault on those of us who were honestly trying to answer your questions.
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Chris Harrison

I don't recall posting anything in response to your questions that would make you look like an imbecile, nor would it make fun of your language or choice of words.

If you go back and read your original post, you admitted yourself that you weren't very experienced at sexing snakes, and your questions bore that out. There's no shame in that, everyone has to get the experience somehow. Nowhere in the original post did you say that you had more experience than the rest of us with kingsnakes or any other kind of snakes. If you have more than 30 years, I bow to your experience. Nor did you mention that you worked "side-by-side" with "the best in the business". If those are facts, then you shouldn't need to post in here asking how to sex a king snake because you have more experience with it that the rest of us anyway and you have undoubtable seen many cases of punch-through, so that should be no mystery to you. Anyone with a "lot of experience with king snakes" should be able to visually sex them with a very high degree of accuracy and certainly wouldn't be "popping" adult snakes as a matter of course. If nothing else, you can count subcaudals. As far as "papered biologists" goes, I have an education in biology/zoology. Not that that matters, it doesn't. Some of the most important techniques in husbandry and breeding have come from hobbyists and breeders who are not degreed biologists. If you want to read about the natural history of snakes, DNA typing, ranges, reclassifications, morphology, physiology, etc., go read Herp Journal. If you want to learn how to keep and breed snakes, hang out with breeders and hobbyists.

I take exception to your accusations that I posted anything demeaning in response to your questions. You asked for help, I was trying to provide it. If you don't agree with what I'm telling you, you are free to ignore it. It doesn't matter to me either way. If you don't want answers, don't ask the questions. Maybe it's YOU that could "check the attitude", or at least don't make blanket accusations directed at "the rest of you". Since you have the experience, why don't YOU tell US the answer to your questions? Exacly how many subcaudal scales did you expect the probe to go for a male? A female? Since it was different on each side, what did that tell you? Was it still in range for a female? Was it still in range for a male?

Perhaps some people came on a little strong and suggested things that weren't quite valid for everyone, such as never trying to probe or "pop" a snake. Probing is a perfectly safe and acceptable way to sex snakes, assuming proper technique and equipment. "Popping" is also perfectly safe and acceptable, assuming once again proper technique and appropriate subject, however, even the tiniest hatchlings can be safely probed. Not all snakes are easily visually sexed and IMHO spending money on a veterinarian visit and x-rays every time you need a snake sexed is ludicrous. But, that was his opinion and that's the way he does things. I'm not going to knock that.

I don't really think that any one on here was trying to give you grief, but just answering your questions in their own style. I think you over reacted and may actually owe some apologies. If you don't want responses that assume a neophyte level of knowledge and experience, then maybe you should ask them in such a fashion that gives a clue as to your level of knowledge and experience. Or, predicate every question from now on with "I'm already an expert, but I have a question for you."

I don't recall posting anything in response to your questions that would make you look like an imbecile...

Well, except his own response.

Seriously dude, I'm usually not one to pick sides of arguments I'm not a part of, but that was out of line. These people were trying to help.

Chris' comment about not being able to pop snakes that were too old was only saying that popping probably wouldn't yield much as far as reliable results, not that you were doing something incorrect. And he showed you a picture of something you already knew... big frickin' deal. You talk on a forum of people that don't know you, don't get bent out of shape if they tell you something you already know.

And KingOz's comment... you said yourself that you've been probing/popping the snake a lot. She probably is sore, and you can't blame the guy for suggesting you lay off shoving things up your snake's "butt" for a little.

I honestly am appalled that you could be so ungrateful of three COMPLETE STRANGERS that tried to help you.

nice info. if i understand your drawings correctly, you'd want to point out that the narrowing on the female coincides with the cloaca, right? Females start to taper rather dramatically AT the cloaca, because there are no hemipenes filling out their bodies just beyond the cloaca, while there ARE in males.
terry

Well, personally I am leaning towards it being a female after our dealings with it last night. I have considered the fact that maybe she/it was probed too deeply and torn on the one side, but if that is the case I highly doubt it was by myself, as I am VERY gentle when it comes to probing, use plenty of lube and have never seen a spot of blood from this particular snake. It's possible it was accidentally done by the breeder/seller who probed her after I did the day I purchased her.
I learned to probe/pop from a biologist/herpetologist who has worked at the NY state ENCON for close to 20 years, infact he's the one who has taught me the most about all the reptiles I deal with, he's a good guy =) Unfortunately he's away on a study right now and I can't take Princess to him for diagnosis, or I'd have already done it.
As far as popping goes, I was taught that yes, it is the best and easiest way to sex babies, but can be done on a snake of any age. Indeed, I have seen it done with my own eyes on an adult rat snake. From what I know and my own experiences it is of course vastly more difficult on an adult snake, (due to them being 'tight asses', lol) and much care should be taken to not cause any damage to the animal. It can not always be done, and should not be attempted a second time if the first fails. But since Princess is still fairly young I figured it was worth a try.
And yes, Thanks for the tail diagrams to refresh my memory...but as I said in my original post it does look like a female from the outside....arrghh...lol

My apologies, sorry if I offended anyone, but I must clear up a few things:

1)At no point in time did I claim that I was an expert, or even better than any of you guys, just that I'm not a dummy when it comes to kingsnakes.

2)I did not say I had worked side by side with the best in the business, I said ONE of the best.

3)I did not say I didn't know how to probe snakes, been doing it for a long time. I said I sucked at popping, and that includes babies...for some reason I'm just not good at it. That's why I opt to probe babies as well as adults. Nor was I asking HOW to sex a snake, just you guys' opinions on what could be up with this one since I personally never had this type of problem before. When I thanked Chris H for the picture that was in earnest, as most of my books are packed away in storage at the moment, and it was a refresher to know I still remembered that correctly. As I said, the snake does indeed LOOK like a femme from the outside. No muscular tail here.

4)I have been doing this for 18, almost 19 years. I did not say I had been doing it longer than ALL people here, I said MOST, and that is probably a fact. I am certainly NOT looking to win any contest...geez! Nor did I ask for any deference, nor do I expect any, but a little respect would be nice. Those of you who have been doing this longer, and may be degreed biologists, that is awesome, and I defer to you any day...just don't be so lordly with your responses sometimes!

Once again I apologize, maybe it is me who needs a swift kick in the cloaca...but you guys have no idea how frustrated this has me, and I guess some of your responses just rubbed me the wrong way. On top of it I am 3 1/2 months pregnant with my 3rd child, I tend to get pissy very easily these days, and although it's no excuse it sure doesn't help. I am sorry.
I have heard of this, but have never personally experienced it. I have indeed probed and sexed a male snake as female before due to sperm plugs, lol, felt like a dummy for that I tell ya. But I don't think this is the case here as this snake probed as female for me a little over a year ago, and the breeder/seller popped as well as probed and said it was female also.
Anyways, if you're still interested: The snake probes to a depth of 4 scales on the right side. It probes to a depth of 8 scales on the left. I have never had a female probe any more than 4-5 scales, nor have I had a male probe less than 8, it's usually alot deeper even.
The reason I have asked you guys is because although I do know of one good herp vet within a 2 hour drive, I would prefer not to have to take it there just for a sexing. My friend and mentor is away on a rattlesnake census out of state at the moment, and the only other person in the area who I trusted to give me a proper second opinion unfortunately can not probe snakes anymore due to losing most of the use and sesitivity in his hands in a serious car crash last year.
I am reallystarting to chalk it up to a punched-through female, although as I said I've never seen a drop of blood and up until when I discovered this 2 months ago. I had probed the snake twice, once at purchase and once shortly after arrival just for confirmation to myself over a year ago. It looks like a female in the tail, and to me, it looks like a female in the face. I have even asked the snake to give me a sign, but it sniffed my nose and wound it's way up under my glasses instead. It is a very healthy snake, great attitude, great eater, and if all goes well should be a great breeder (male or female) come next year. When I find out for sure what it is I will let you know.

Darn, and here I thought I was going to get a nice female kingsnake. Ah well, perhaps we can still do a trade when our respective clutches hatch.

There ARE those who respond negatively on this forum. We've ALL seen them. I don't think those who've responded to this thread are among those, but I DO know that it gets you sometimes defensive... you think Am I going to be slammed for asking this question? Will I be answered? Will one of the people who are the worst at flaming other people without cause attack me?.

Sometimes if you're not on a level surface (ie you have various and sundry factors effecting your mood) it's easy to get over sensitive and see that people are attacking you when they aren't.

Perhaps there should be an "I want to flame you" message board... and people can send a nice cordial invite to someone privately, "I saw you proposed keeping snakes on PINE. I'm gonna flame you in the "flame forum" so I invite you to come over and tell me your sorry side of the story" Be nice to keep the flames where they belong.

I am very grateful for the GOOD people on this forum who always help. Some don't help don't hinder, I'm glad of their stories and difficulties to read up on so perhaps I can avoid a bad mistake by learning of theirs. And finally I try my best to ignore, or even laugh at, the ridiculous people who post on here who have no social skills and no abilities to share dubious "knowledge" about snakes.

Just live and learn and be yourself the best example, and sad of those who lack the skills you yourself mostly possess. (that's what I tell myself)
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~Sasheena
Ground Snakes
Kit, Kaboodle, Tantilla, Tantillas, Lightning, Kinkee, Maple
JCP
Dreamer
Rosy
Castle
Kings
Licorice, Bishop, Queenie, Jester, Tigris, Euphrates
Pandora, Phantom
Lady
Corns
Aphrodite, Athena, Hermes
Tiger
Amulet

=

Sometimes things are misconstued and misinterpreted and get out of hand in a hurry when there was no ill intent to begin with.

It helps to understand the motivations of the people who are answering the questions. Most times we have no idea the skill/knowledge level of the person asking the questions. Most times they are beginners. So, we have to key our answers to a beginner unless we know otherwise. If you are a beginner with your first snake and get on here and ask "How do I know what sex my snake is?", if I respond with "Well, insert a sexing probe into the cloaca on either side, if it probes 2 to 4 subcaudals it's female if it probes 8 to 12 it's male.", then that response would have no meaning whatever for you. If I respond with "Well, look at it's tail. If it's short and tapers steeply it's a female, it it's long and tapers gradually, it's a male." You could understand that. If you responded with "I know that, dork, how many subcaudals will it probe if it's female and how many if it's male?" then I have an idea that you are a little more advanced and I can key my answers accordingly.

I am very reluctant to tell someone how to probe or evert. I usually just tell them to go find someone with experience to teach them. If they don't know what they are doing, they can cause serious damage to the snake. "If someone askes "How do I sex my Prairie Kingsnake?" I'm not going to say "Well, stick a probe into it's cloaca and see how far it will go in." (it will go a long way if you push hard enough). Or..."Well, grab the snake by it's tail and squeeze the crap out of it and see if anything pops out." (I don't even want to think about that) If someone knows what they are doing, generally their question will look something like "How many subcaudals will a female Irian Jayan Carpet Python probe vs. a male?"

At any rate, I would really like to see some clear digital pictures of your snake's tail bottom and top...any chance of getting your hands on a digital camera? I (or one of the other guys or gals) on here might...just might..be able to help.