Reptile & Amphibian Forums

AFTER MUCH CONTROVERSY, WE HAVE DECIDED TO CALL THIS BLOODLINE THE "AMERICAN JUNGLES". USING THE JUNGLE NAME ALONE REALLY SEEMS TO BOTHER A FEW PEOPLE. TO LESSEN THE STRESS ON THOSE INDIVIDUALS, WE HAVE CHOSEN THIS NEW NAME. THIS IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO CAPTITALIZE OR COPY THE EXISTING JUNGLE NAME. THESE BOAS PICTURED BELOW ARE SIBLINGS TO SOME VERY ABERRANT ONES THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN SOLD. THE NICEST ONE WAS SOLD TO MR. GRAY RUSHIN. AFTER RECEIVING THIS BOA, GRAY EMAILED TO LET ME KNOW IT WAS ONE OF THE MOST AMAZING BOAS HE HAD EVER SEEN. MANY OF YOU KNOW GRAY. HE KEEPS A VERY LARGE COLLECTION OF KILLER LOOKING BOAS. TWO OF THE ANIMALS PICTURED BELOW ARE NOW OWNED BY JOE ROLLO. MANY OF YOU KNOW HIM AS BCI-JOE HERE ON THE BOA FORUM. HE ALSO KEEPS A VERY LARGE COLLECTION OF AWESOME BOAS. I HOPE THIS NAME IS APPROPRIATE AND DOESN'T BOTHER OR OFFEND ANYONE.

THIS WAS ONE OF THE MORE ABERRANT LOOKING ONES. I HOPE YOU ARE ENJOYING HER GRAY, IT WAS REALLY HARD TO LET HER GO!

Bill thanks for answering, well actually you didnt. So let me ask again.

It seems all the animals you are posting, from what I can piece together, as american jungles came from one litter this season?

Is that a correct assumption?

Have you produced similar boas from this SAME pairing before?

Have you produced similar boas when breeding one of the offspring to a "common" or wild type boa?

Have you produced similar boas when breeding only one of the parents do a common boa?

Im really just trying to get an idea of whats going on here. I have been sitting on the side line, just trying to absorb what you have going, and I need some help.

The people you listed off as people who have purchased from you are impressive to say the least. I know Gray to be a VERY discriminating buyer, and as such I do value his opinion on a animal.

That being said I would still love for you to answer theese questions for me. You may remeber back a few months when we all had the big "jungle" discussions going, and I was one of the people who didnt take a real hard line on the issue. However by doing what you are doing now it makes it hard not to be a hard line guy, and say only a european jungle can be a jungle. Ive said all along I felt IF you could breed a euro jungle to a "new line jungle" and create super jungles, why not call the "new line jungle" just jungle.

I guess what Im trying to say by that last statement is this. If I am haveing a hard time dealing with the way your handleing yourself with theese snakes, then cant you see how other "hard line" people would really get pissed about it.

Please for the love of all thats good, just answer the quetions one time, openly and as plainly as possible. Put some date, photos, and lineage background down once and for all. If not here, then on a web page or something.

If nothing else I think you owe it to the guys who bought them from you to protect their investments.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

IF GRAY OR JOE WANT TO SHIP THEIR BOAS BACK FOR A FULL REFUND. THEN THEY CAN AND I WILL BE HAPPY TO REFUND THEIR MONEY.

Wouldn't 100% genetic be a good guarantee as well?
What happens when they buy your 'jungle' and then they see what everyone else is producing as "Jungles"? Would you replace them then?
I would beinterested in talking with these people and seeing if they are interested in producing 'jungles' from your American line, which is a very nice looking normal, or would they be interested in producing "Jungles" like I posted links to somewhere in this thread?

Granted, your price is lower, but I have bought boas that look like those for less than a couple hundred! Their colors and patern were gentic too!
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE SOME OF YOUR LESS THAN $200 BOAS. IN FACT, IF THEY LOOK LIKE THESE. I WILL PAY YOU $400 EACH AND LET YOU DOUBLE YOUR MONEY. PLEASE SHOW US A FEW IMEDIATELY.

you got me there. I own one normal as of today in my whole collection. It is a proven 8' female. I am sorry I cannot produce such a pic.
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

.......

Why would I say I could not produce an pic of something that I no longer have if it were not true?

Lost me there?!?!?
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

Bill,

All that people want is for you to answer there questions, that don't want to hear your little rants.

100% Customer satisfaction. . . tongues not always included!
Got Tongue?

I just do not see it. I have always tried to understand the 'jungle' type boas as far as the genetics and whatnot. The ones that I see (Rich Ihle, Todd Smith, and others) have some very different looking boas. These on the other hand, other than being high pink, are nothing more than a common boa to me.
Bill, I am not taking away from the beauty of these snakes, but there is a major difference in what you are calling a 'jungle' compared to the other 'jungles' out there. One major difference, at laest that I see, is the overall "softer" look to the animal.....other people's that is. There is also a greater amount of black around the saddles (if I remember correctly) compared to yours. Then there is the obvious, that being the abarrent patterns which I see none of in your 'jungles'.
The one above here (your sencond pic on this thread) you stated it is one of the more abarrent ones. Hell, I see patterns no different than the hundreds of boas I see on various forums and my own collection as compared to yours.
Again, not knocking the snake, but I have a hard time accepting they are anyting more than a good pink boa.
Like it has been asked, what happens when you breed these to a 'normal' Columbian? Are all the pics you show the offspring of the same parents? Have you 'proven' these with other snakes?

I hate to choose your pics/thread to post this on, but it just seems that everyone these days (not just in boas, but balls as well) has something new yet nobody ever produces anything with them to insure me it is indeed a genetic trait.

I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on this and again, I am not atacking you, but it is very unclear as to what you have or even do not have.
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

THESE ARE WHAT I HAVE. PLEASE SEE PIC BELOW. I AM NOT SELLING THEM FOR 10K AND CALLING THEM TRUE JUNGLES FROM THE SWEDISH LINE. I MADE THIS VERY CLEAR TO EVERYONE BEFORE I POSTED THEM AND THEN AGAIN WHEN I POSTED THEM FOR SALE. I ALSO SAID LOUD AND CLEAR.... "IF YOU DON'T LIKE THEM, THEN DON'T BUY THEM."

I understand how you marketed them, I read the classifieds as well.
Here is my question that others have asked as well, but you have not answered.

1. How many times (DIFFERENT clutches) have you produced them?
2. Have you ever bred either of the parents to a non related normal boa? If so, what was the outcome?
3. Have you ever bred the offspring from the currect parents? If so what was the outcome.
4. If the answer to #2 and #3 is, (#2) no.....and (#3) no, then my last question would be how can you call it anyting other than a pretty boa you produced?

This is the problem with snakes today (and yes I will start a new thread about just this), people bring in an import or produce something one time and......KABOOOOM, they have a new morph that is worthy of 1000's of dollars. I think it is wrong, deceiptful, and flat out scamming.

I think something, especially when it comes to patterns, needs to be bred inot multiple snakes and the reproduced before it can be called anything. Now with albinos, that was a given, with Pieds (Ball pythons) that was a given, but these abbarent boas people have (not taklking about yours as they are not abbraent to me) and then go asking hundreds if not thousands is just their way of blowing up their ego and pissing of customers.

I can go on and continue my thoughts if you wish!
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

YOU ARE WAY OUT OF LINE. IT IS OBVIOUS TO ME THAT YOU DO INDEED HAVE A PERSONAL PROBLEM WITH ME AND MY BOAS. I WILL ASK AGAIN.... PLEASE SHOW US SOME PICS OF BOAS THAT YOU HAVE OR BETTER YET, PLEASE SHOW US SOMETHING YOU HAVE PRODUCED.

can we see f2 and f1 animals?
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recycle your pets

Bill,
I have ZERO problem with you. You always say that when someone confronts you about something. I DO have a problem with your marketing tactics.

This is not about me, what I sell, how I sell, what I produce, when I produce etc. Stick to the topic here. Topic being YOUR snakes.........nobody elses!

If these are F-3's then that means you have bred siblings together from 3 generations.
Follow me:
Original parents= these boas
these boas x these boas= F-2 these boas
F-2 these boas x F-2 these boas= F-3 these boas (supposedly what we are seeing).

Knowing how you love to share pics and I will be the first to admit, I enjoy looking at them, why haven't you ever shown pics of these before? Why have you not ever advertaised them before? Like it was asked, can I kindly see the F-1 and F-2's? I did not see such a title on ANY of your pics on your webpage about past generations, NOR do I EVER recall you EVER saying they were F-3's. Why is that? Isn't that an important thing to forget to add in an advertisement for such a specimen?
If they are indeed F-3's, when will we see the 'jungle' pattern come out in the project?

Never thought I did my homeowrk did you?
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

ARE STILL WAY OUT OF LINE. PLESE CALL ME IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO DISCUSS IN DETAIL. BE A MAN AND CALL ME. I AM ALWAYS READY TO SHARE MY THOUGHTS ABOUT THIS HOBBY.

How in the world am I out of line? Out of line because you label something that does not, in any way, represent a trait that already exists and is called such? Forgive me for being straight and honest!

Fine, let's go with the fact that you do not have them, I am not suggesting it is not a genetic (I suppose the color if anything), but what you call them is the problem here. PLEASE, I beg you, how can you not see that?

I would be more than happy to call, but here is my lame (but honest) problem.

My cell has free long distance and therefore I cancelled my L.D. on my home phone. My wife is gone and has the cell at this moment as she takes it with her to work.

If you would care to call me, feel free to email me and I will give you my number.

With that said, I think the issues at hand are very much in the interest of the public, at least in regards to the couple emails I have received!
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

If you are not selling them as pure "Jungles" regardless of the line, how can you still put the WORD jungle in the post?

First of all it is a snake morph that has already been produced and acknowledged by the commuity and it is MISLEADING!!!

It is very hard to sell something that looks NOTHING like the animal we all know it to be....in reference to "Jungles" and call it the same. This is like me producing something, regardless of it being genetic, and calling it a Pied (ball python). That is just flat out rediculous!

How can you NOT see what you are diong as being WRONG?!?!?!?

Just like your Silver Salmon things. They are not silver NOR are they salmon (even in coloration). Isn't that misleading? How can it not be? Like russ said, to the neive, they might thins they are going to produce a snake (when buying yours) like the one below!!!!
You also said they were all sold. If that is the case...and I know you spend quite a bit of time on line and posting here and there, why are they still in your for sale folder rather than the folder you have titled "BOAS SOLD" that I believe has 314 pics in it? Did you catch too much $h!t for this and just pull the ad yet tell us you sold them so we can look up to you?
Yes, I am getting a bit frustrated, I just, for the life of me do not see how you can not see my point!!!!!!!'

THIS is a salmon OR a hypo....whatever you want to call it. YES, it is genetic too Bill!

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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

here is a Salmon and YES, it is genetic!

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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

CROSSBREED. MINE ARE PURE COLOMBIANS THAT TOOK TIME TO SELECTIVELY BREED. ANY MORE QUESTIONS?

Which is a crossbreed?
Are you referring to how one makes Hypos?
I know what you are getting at. Let's go with your sinario here that todays Salmons and/or Hypos are a cross between a Panamanian and a Columbian. Last I checked, and I could be off) they are BOTH BCI's!! That would not make them a cross breed, just a cross in sub-species.

I am NOT knocking the selective reproduction you have worked so hard to achieve. God, you twist things to sound good for you. I am STILL speaking in regards to your MARKETING TACTICS and what you sell them as VS. what they ARE!! You cannot take a boa (be it a nice looking one at that) and call it something that already exists and looks NOTHING like.
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

THE WAY I SEE IT THOSE ANIMALS ARE NOTHING MORE THAN SOME REALLY REALLY NICE PINK BOAS! THEY ARE NOT ANY FORM OF JUNGLE, EITHER EUROPEAN BLOOD OR AMERICAN BLOOD.I HAVE NO CLUE AS TO WHAT YOUR PRICE FOR THEM IS BUT I WOULD SAY $500 EA. IS A FAIR PRICE FOR THOSE ANIMALS. NO BILL THEY ARE NOT JUNGLES AND BY CALLING THEM THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO USE NAME RECOGNITION TO SELL YOUR ANIMALS ,AND THAT REALLY ISNT VERY MORAL THAT IS ALL BRIAN IS TRYING TO SAY. YOU CLAIM THESE TO BE F-3'S AND YOU DIDNT GET LUCKY AND JUST PRODUCE A NICE CLUTCH. OK SHOW US ALL THE PROOF. VALIDATE YOUR CLAIMS AND SHOW US THE ADULT ANIMALS THAT PRODUCED THOSE ANIMALS AND THE ONES WHO PRODUCED THE ADULTS. RATHER THAN GET DEFENSIVE, SHUT EVERYONE UP ONCE AND FOR ALL! AT BEST BILL THOSE ANIMALS ARE REALLY NICE PASTELS , NOT JUNGLES AND WHILE IT IS YOUR RIGHT TO ASK WHATEVER PRICE IT IS YOU WANT FOR YOUR ANIMALS IT IS NOT RIGHT TO USE QUESTIONABLE METHODS TO MARKET THEM. AND SEEING AS MORE THAN 1 PERSON ON THIS FORUM FEELS THAT YOU ARE DOING THIS ISNT IT POSIBLE THAT MAYBE YOU ARE INADVERTANTLY DOING JUST THAT? JUST MY VEIWS ON THIS SUBJECT

.

Come to find out,Bill invented the first original shovel. A guy by the name of Robert Chovel stole the idea from him during a snipe hunt in Burma...the original implement was called a "Cungle",and,crafted from silver,giving rise to the common "Silver Cungle"...to this day if you drive through the streets of any city in Burma,raise your left arm,and,shout:"CUNGLE"!!!...the native people will come running,thinking you are a traveling "tool salesman"...."believe it...........or,NOT!"...excuse me...I have to get a tissue,I always get a bit misty when I tell the "Cungle" story...*Rolls out of chair in convulsion,and,drops to the floor,gasping*

Actually your story was waaay too short. I, for one, want to hear more. I love true stories of actual events in history

you are a trip man! your writing style rocks!

That story deserves more then your common roflmao.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

.

.

I wanted to post this again to make sure you saw it. I just wanted to get your thoughts on it.

Post-
I remember them saying salmon coloring or something like that.
I think the problem is, like John already mentioned, is that they are misleading. ANYONE could not pay close attention to your wording and think they were buying a salmon (aka hypo) boa. I also think about those that are not regulars in the boa world/just starting out, think ing they are get a "SALMON" that will produce more "SALMONS" when in fact that is far from the truth.

Like Is aid in my above post under your 'jungles', I am not knocking you presonally. In fact I have stuck up for you in matters a couple years ago where I got a lot of crap for doing so (same topic I emailed you about recently that surfaced again on another site), but again, I have to agree, I think you are clearly misleading "Joe Public" with the wording of your snakes.

They are awesome looking snakes. Why can't you just post a pic of them and let the look sell themselves rather than posting things that would make one believe they are genetic?
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

These are jungles as we know them. Please help me identify similar characteristics with your line and a true "Jungle".

Compliments of Pete Kahl's site
http://www.pkreptiles.com/

Compliments of Pro Exotics
http://www.proexotics.com/retail_products/Boas/jungle_boa_2-01_2.jpg

These were just to name a few. I can ask others to post their's if need be for more comparison.
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net