Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is anyone elses DHL extremely tame when you take it out of it's cage? Inside mine is very wild, running, basking, climbing his stick... But when I get him out, he'll fall asleep in my hands. I dunno if he is just trying to ignore me or what. Just wanted to see if all DHLs act this way..

Also, mine has still not taking ants.. He loves mealies, mealie beetles and crickets. What will happen if I cannot get him to take the ants?
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1.1 Eublepharis macularius
1.0 Uromastyx geryi
0.0.1 Phrynosoma platyrhinos
0.0.1 Kinosternon bauri

Hi Karu,

It's very common for HLs to quiet down when handled. One of their typical defenses is to freeze and sort of play dead. When frightened they will become motionless and even close their eyes. When I was a kid we used to call it "going to sleep". Usually, given their excellent camoflage, this makes them difficult to see. Also, since most predators are stimulated by movement, being very still often causes them to lose interest. He's probably not ignoring you, he's probably hoping that if you think he's dead you won't eat him.

I would say that as long as he is eating well, don't worry too much. There are many people who have kept them alive for quite a while without ants. However, there is some evidence that their lifespans are much shorter without ants. Given that in the wild the diet of a DHL is about 90% ants, it's not surprising that they need them for a normal healthy life. Have you tried ordering some of the western harvesters yet? That would be my first suggestion. Those are his natural food, and the most likely to work. Also try the refrigerator trick I mentioned before. Another possibility is to dust some refrigerated ants with a little mineral supplement (they're easier to deal with when they're cooled down). Maybe if they are more like the color of the crickets he's been eating he'll take them.

How is the problem with his watery scats? Has that gotten better?

Thanks for the tips. I will get some more ants today and put them in the fridge. He takes about 4/5 mealies a day then wont even look at more. I guess he gets full on that many.

As for the watery poops, that seemed to only happen on his first poop with me. Since then all the poops have been totally normal looking. I guess it must have been the stress from the move?

Are these guys semi-aboreal? I find him climbing on his stick quite often. He likes to run up to the top then climb back down to bask.
Here is a pic of his stick incase you wanna know how thick it is.

I guess since it's so thick it just like an inclined surface to him. It's wider then he is so I guess it's not like climbing, more like walking up the stick. heh.
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1.1 Eublepharis macularius
1.0 Uromastyx geryi
0.0.1 Phrynosoma platyrhinos
0.0.1 Kinosternon bauri

Yeah, keep trying the ants, and if he continues to refuse the Florida ants, place an order for a few of the Western ones. Like you said before though, at least he's eating. As I said before, if you'd rather not buy some Western harvesters, I can send you some. I would actually like to trade some for some Florida harvesters, since I can't find any around here. I'd like to try them on my HLs and see if they'll eat them.

Glad to hear that the scat problem has cleared up. Yes, it was probably just the stress.

Some HLs will climb into bushes once in awhile, but they're not really arboreal. I think you're right, a big stick is just an inclined surface to him. Give shim som variety though.

Well, it sounds like he's acclimated pretty well so far, and is at least comfortable in his new home. Good luck and keep us posted.

Gary

How much would it cost to send you some of the ants? And, if we did trade, how many would you want?

Also, about the post above, do you think ground up ants dusted on mealies would work? It sounds like a good idea..
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1.1 Eublepharis macularius
1.0 Uromastyx geryi
0.0.1 Phrynosoma platyrhinos
0.0.1 Kinosternon bauri

:No, it will not work. Ants provide nutrients that no other insect provides, except maybe some bees and a few other hymonoptera. HLs have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years (a couple of million actually) with ants as there main and primary staple food item. HLs developed a detox factor in their blood to detoxify ant venom, that can be deadly, and turns it into vital nutrients. The body mass of the ant, the water content, the nutrient content, the fat content, and more, are all factors that make ants the primary food item. Scat analysis and stomach content analysis, all point to one fact: Ants are the primary food item. You cannot put some "magic" dusting on a leaf of lettuce and make it a steak. Bad analogy? Probably. But people think they can alter evolutionary development in a very short time. Ants provide all of the essentials.

I have raised Desert HLs to 7 years from hatching. I have raised Coast HLs from hatching to 9 years. I have raised Roundtails from hatching to 6 years. I have raised Shorthorneds from birth to 5 years. I have raised Regals from hatching to 6 years. The botton line; I followed what was found by studying the HLs in the wild and dietary analysis, scat and stomach content. They eat ants as their primary food requirement. I have experimented with meal worms, and crickets, in outdoor enclosures and indoor enclosures, with natural sunlight and artificial lighting, vitamins and mineral supplements (dry and wet). The horned lizard's health always declined if the primary food item, ants, were not provided. Many different kinds of ants meet the HLs dietary requirements. There is no short cut. Try feeding you boas lettuce or shredded carrots.

Lester G. Milroy III

with powdered ants or bees would work? It so happens I agree with you about the ants. HLs have invested--what?--20 million years into specializing in ants, so they likely aren't going to thrive without. I'm interested in your opinion of the paper in Herp Review by Wade Scherbrooke in which he discusses keeping Regal HL babies through adults on a diet lacking ants. I notice he didn't keep very many, and there was some mortality in hte group, but what do you think of all that? Mind you, I'm not taking it as a green light to ignore HLs need for ants, but it's probably worth factoring in somewhere.

:My opinion of Dr. Sherbrooke's paper is that it was interesting. Of course, I also know Wade personally and have discussed the issue with him in the past. He still makes it a point to reinforce that HLs need ants for the best health. The sample size is real small and to draw major conclusions on application to all HLs is a problem. I have had people make reference to the paper before and try to support not providing their HLs with ants. The end results were mortality for the HLs they "so much wanted to enjoy and captive breed." Some lessons are so hard to accept. Lester G. Milroy III

I was browsing around today and found this interesting link

Lester, you have me curious. How many progressive captive generations have you been able to raise and of why type HL?
Cheers

:Hello Cable. The research was to find out at what age HLs reach reproductive maturity.

The Desert HLs (2 pairs @4 years old when captured) produced 23 offspring.
Offspring survival - 19 (11 Females, 8 males) Reproduced at 2 years, 3 months.

The Roundtail HLs (2 pairs @3 years old when captured) produced 11 offspring.
Offspring survival - 8 (4 females, 4 males). Reproduced at 2 years, 6 months.

The Shorthorned HLs (1 pair @3 years old when captured) produced 9 offspring.
Offspring survival - 8 (6 females, 2 males). Reproduced at 3 years.

The Regal HLs (1 pair @4 years old when captured) produced 15 offspring.
Offspring survival - 14 (8 females, 6 males). Reproduced at 2 years, 6 months.

The Coast HLs (2 pairs @4 years old when captured) produced 23 offspring.
Offspring survival - 23 (13 females, 10 males). Reproduced at 2 years, 2 months.

Offspring from each group were then chosen at random to re-test reproductive maturity. The re-testing involved 2 females and 2 females from each group. All other HLs were maintained to document growth rates and longevity. All offspring pairs reproduced at approx. the same ages. The survival rates are high because of negative predation and other controlled conditions. Dietary requirements were modeled from scat analysis and ants were collected from undisturbed habitats, increasing dietary richness and quality of prey items.

Dietary testing was done using meal worms and crickets as staple items. The results were declines in body mass, SVL and total length of HLs tested.

I hope this gives you some idea of the ongoing studies to date. The LD50 paper that you referenced is also a good resource document. Lethal Dose 50 studies are always interesting.

Lester G. MIlroy III

Thanks Lester. Those are some interesting details. You didn't say how old the offspring were when they reproduced?

It must be fascinating to have the time to invest in these studies. A good retirement project for me I guess.
Thanks again.
Cheers!

Hi Lester,
I have been doing similiar studies, and would like to expand on the variety of species I work with. Most species I've worked with reach sexual maturity during their second spring although Montanucci reports ditmarsi reaching it at 13 months.

When you fed the study group a staple diet of crickets and mealworms did the horned lizards develop watery or greenish feces? I think horned lizards have evolved digestive systems that require acidic prey(ants) to keep the micro-flora in balance. I have a friend in Germany who has kept and bred numerous species on ants of the genus lasius. I know the nutritional makeup had to have been different from ants in North America but I think the chemical makeup of the ants must be similiar. It would be of great benefit to find an independant lab to do both a nutritional and chemical analysis on a species of pogonomyrmrex. I think after we find out what an ant is made of we can start to experiment to determine what it is that horned lizards require. Like you said you can't sprinkle dust on lettuce and turn it into a steak but if someone requires protein they can get it from a piece of meat, a can of beans or even from a pill. Jeff

:Hello Jeff.
Yes, the HLs fed crickets and meal worms developed wet, greenish scat that lacked defined shape. The problems that developed were dehydration and loss of nutrients (fats, proteins and carbs). Diagnosis - severe diarrhea. The digestive track, mainly the intestines, could not or would not reabsorb the water back into the system.

Yes, the problem was caused by a change in pH in the digestive system and increased micro-flora activity. I have pointed this out in the past on postings on the forum. There are many vital nutrients that ants contain in the correct balance. Adaptive evolution set the requirement several million years ago.

Supplements will not change that requirement. Supplements may not even be beneficial. I have experimented with supplements, dry and water soluable, and found that HLs tend to show negative benefit, loss of body mass, when using supplements as compared to a total natural diet.

Lester G. Milroy III

:Sorry, Jeff, I forgot to answer the caption question. I am primarily only working with the Coast HLs now. I needed data to compare with Coast HLs and establish a baseline for growth rates, dietary needs, and hatching success.

Lester G. Milroy III