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Hey guys was wondering about some of the members of the gouldii complex and wanted to know if they crossed in certain areas of oz I read that lacies crossed meaning the bells phase and regular type. So I was wondering if Gouldii, Flavirufus, Panopotes crossed in a given area? I dont think I saw this on some of the sites I was on so I was wondering If you guys knew or wanted to take a stab at it?

thanks alex

I don't live in Oz (sorry 'bout that), and ain't FR (amen), but maybe I can take a stab at your question anyway. First up, flavirufus is the name sometimes used for some of the more brightly colored inland populations of V. gouldii -- it isn't a clear-cut thing, and there is a tremendous range of color and pattern variation within gouldii, including 'flavirufus' types. It is pretty likely that there are several species mixed up in what we now call gouldii (even after rosenbergi and panoptes were separated out). Argus monitors (V. panoptes) come in three geographically isolated subspecies -- V. p. horni in southern New Guinea, V. p. rubidus in N central Western Australia, and V. p. panoptes in the NT and Queensland.

Argus and Gould's monitors can be found in the same places across much of northern Australia. Where conditions allow, panoptes tends to favor wetter habitats (like floodplains, river edges and coastal wetlands), and areas with harder soils, than does gouldii (which is not called 'sand goanna' for nothing), but animals of both species range widely and certainly meet one another commonly in nature. However, they are really rather different animals in the wild, in ways that don't show up very clearly in captivity. Gould's monitors are shy and deliberate, and spend a lot of time simply watching for prey from the shelter of bushes, etc., or go along quite slowly, carefully investigating everything they encounter. In contrast, panoptes are like tanks, meaner than spit and they know it. Gould's will hide or run if approached, whereas many Argus will tripod and stand their ground. Argus eat Gould's, OK? As it is said, if you had one of every species of Australian monitors each in its own bag, the bag that jumped up and bit you would be the Argus.

I am not aware of any reports of Argus x Gould's hybrids in nature. Both species are very variable, and the first animals you see in an unfamiliar place may be confusing, but the tail tip (banded or plain), build, and behavior are consistent. Where they are free to choose, the two do not appear to interbreed at all. They obviously can in captivity, but so can lions and tigers.

Bell's form of V. varius is just that, a color morph, that occurs in some fraction of animals in parts of the range of lacies. Bell's morph animals are mostly one sex (males, if I remember correctly), so the genes that confer the pattern may be sex-linked.

Thank you Sam for the responce,about the Bell's Phase though I heard froma little bird that they might get recognition for subspecies because of some anatomically differences. I am not sure when it is going to happen, but the study is going on as we speak I do not want to say anymore as I do not know anymore but it is what i heard.

That would be truly odd for bells phase to be given subspecies status, for it isn't a true geographic race and individuals of this colour phase coexist with 'normal' lace monitors throughout the range of the bells phase. If there are anatomical differences associated with bells phase animals (I've heard rumours of different head shape), they are probably linked to the colour (ie in close proximity on the same chromosome).

although it was once believed that bells lace monitors were all males, that colour phase does come in both genders.

Hi Alex. As far as finding crosses in nature, I don't think anyone would know if they did find one.

There are many many forms of this complex, and there is lots of variation amoung each population. About the only way to tell a cross occured is to do blood tests.

If you ask me, The western form,V.panoptes rudibus, is a cross. Its a argus type monitor for sure, but it does have an unmarked tail tip like gouldi and flavis. Also, in the northern parts of its range(Pt. Headland to the Grey river), where only a few hundred K seperates them from V.p.panoptes, they have markings that form bands( rows across the body). In the southern parts(Whim Creek to south of the Pilbara), they do not do that, their markings do not form bands or rows. This characteristic belongs to V.flavirufus. But indeed, genetic tests may someday help with this.

This group of monitors in Oz is a total mess, much like several other groups. About the only accurate thing that can be said is, Lots and lots of work needs to be done.

I know of several locations where three types of this complex occur in the exact same place. There is no intergrading there. This shows that they may indeed be different species. But that does not mean they do not intergrade at other locations.
Remember, the gouldi complex occur over most of Oz. Thats slightly smaller then the U.S. If you imagine each of our states having a form of this group and no one there to see lots of individuals, then its easy to understand why there is so much confusion. Even the keys do not include many of the differences between the forms.

In captivity, gouldi, flavirufus, and panoptes, all have totally different eggs. Gouldi being very small, ranging to the giant eggs of panoptes.

I am sure, if you research this group, you will only become more confused. As many of the books have them labeled, forth and back. Good Luck, Frank