Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT A NAME. JUNGLE IS WHERE THESE ANIMALS COME FROM. I WILL CALL THE BOAS I HAVE "AMERICAN JUNGLES." THIS TOTALLY DEFERENTIATES BETWEEN THE TWO. I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO ANSWER AN E-MAIL HERE PUBLICALLY THAT I JUST RECEIVED FROM RUSS LOCKENWITS. I PRODUCED WITH THE MALE PICTURED BELOW AND HOPE TO AGAIN THIS SEASON. I PRODUCED THE SAME LINE THAT RUSS HAS LAST SEASON, BUT HAD A HARD TIME SELLING THE OFFSPRING BECAUSE EVERYONE SAID THEY LOOK LIKE NORMAL COLOMBIANS. I DO NOT AGREE, THESE ARE VERY SPECIAL COLOMBIANS AND I AM TAKING NOTHING AWAY FROM RUSS. I CHOSE A DIFFERENT FEMALE THIS YEAR AND HAVE CHOSEN MY OWN NAME "AMERICAN JUNGLES." I PURCHASED THE PAIR OF LOCKENWITS ANIMALS FROM ALEX SMITH FOR $500 AND A TRADE BOA. I GAVE ALEX PIC OF THE LITTER AS WELL, JUST BECAUSE I LIKE HIM AND HE IS A STRAIGHTFORWARD GUY, LIKE MYSELF. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO CALL ME RUSS AND DISCUSS THIS, PLEASE DO. I WAS A BIT SURPRISED AT YOUR E-MAIL. I THOUGHT ABOUT POSTING IT HERE, BUT THEN I WOULD BE JUST LIKE THE REST OF THESE ROOKIES.

I just tried calling you Bill. You have the message, I left my number. Do what you want with it, but don't sit here and say I was not man enough to call you. I gave it a shot and you felt like not answering your phone.
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

Well, it looks like one of the questions from the below threads was answered, without Mr.Cagle even trying to answer it. It seems that breeding that male produces what all of the potential buyers called normals.Since jungle is a co-dominant trait, and the babies came out normal, one would have to come to the conclusion that these are not jungles, especially if the f3s were all normals.

If they are being called jungles because they come from the jungle, then why add that "American" part in there? I don't know of any boas that come from Jungles in American. The swedish line was not called jungle because they came from the jungle. Just as "party colored" describes a color and pattern variation in cocker spaniels,"jungle" is used for a certain boa.

Also, if the reason for calling them jungles was only because they came from jungles, why were the first pics all of aberant boas? hmmm...don't even answer that one.

I have only been breeding boas for 1 year, yeah...a "rookie" but I am more than willing to put my plain jane "newbie boas" up against your "f3s" from the big thread below any day. Mine were not purchased from a big name,they don't have a fancy name(yet), but I think they look pretty damn good next to your non-aberant jungles..Hey, is that an oxymoron?

Bill Cagle has an outstanding reputation in the hobby. I've yet to hear anyone question his word until this jungle thread started. Considering the amount of boas he has collected, produced, and sold I havent any reason to question his word regarding these or any other boas in his collection. He clearly stated these were not the European jungles so whats the problem!? If you dont think his animals are what fits your own idea as to what a jungle is then dont buy one. See how simple that is? I dont know alot about morphs but I do know enough to point out that alot of the terms used to describe a particular animal are used loosely(may have spelled that wrong) to say the least. Darn near every light Colombian is referred to as "pastel". Since every animal looks different I dare to say some of the folks using the term have their own ideas to what that trait is. Bill has seen something special in these particular boas that makes them stand out to him. If you dont see it thats fine,to each his own ,but there isnt any need to question his integrity. Some of the new(ish) members would probably be better served to read more than they post before getting into something they are unqualified to make judgements about. Just because I hit a home run in high school, it doesnt makes me capable of giving batting advice to Barry Bonds! Take it easy.

Tom

If you haven't heard anyone question Bill Cagle, you simply haven't been around long enough. There have been several lengthy threads in the past about and with him. As for the "new(ish) members" taking exception with his statements, they aren't new members but men and women who have been in the hobby for years or decades as well as respected breeders in their own right. Not every abherant boa is a Jungle and not every light colored Colombian is a Pastel - both terms are for specific lines of animals. The confusion comes when someone, who DOES NOT have a true version of the animal, classifies his or her animals as something they are not. That is the core issue...misrepresentation using a known and accepted term for a bloodline that has no proven genetics with true Jungles or Pastels or substitute-morph-here. The true novices in the hobby are taken in by a name they may have heard batted around at shows, on forums or in magazines when it is applied to an animal not of that line...and not guaranteed to produce the same results in subsequent litters. THOSE are the people who will purchase based on a name with the hope of getting the 'dream snake' they've heard about, only to get a knockoff that may or may not be compatible or even geneticly abherant. It is up to us as keepers and breeders to set a standard and uphold it. It's supposed to be about the animals, not about the money you can get for the animals.

Raven

i question the integrity of every person i buy from. its not a bad thing!!!! you SHOULD question their integrity, no matter what the reputation is. if you pose questions, and they can confidantly, professionally, and honestly answer them, and not feel threatened, then BAM, im a cutomer.... McDonalds, over 800 billion served right... we still dont know whats in a nugget.

if you dont question someones integrity, then youre buying blind... integrity, like respect is earned, on an individual basis. i dont see why the questions posed cant be quickly sorted out in this issue.

theyre F3s, ok lets see F2 and F1, enlighten us to the logistics of this wonderful new trait. no on is arguing theyre purity , or beauty... whats being asked is

A. why the name piggy backing?

B. whats the history? show us this is proven, and warrants its own name as a 'morph'

its inarguable that they are extremely colorful, and clean, and SOME of them are quite abberant. the abberant ones are VERY 'jugle like'. but the fact is, jungles are a 'trademark' of ONE TRAIT THAT ALREADY EXSISTS. so, just like a whopper and a big mac, theyre quite similar, theyre both cheese burgers... share alot of the same ingredients.... so bills 'jungles' and the established lines are both abberant, and colorful... but you cant order a whopper at mcdonalds.... bills are unrelated, and to our dismay, of unproven genetics. i say unproven because none of the questions posed about them are being answered. deffensive positions are being taken rather than getting to the freakin point and answering whats been brought up.

if i had a great reputation as a seller, breeder, trader of the finest boas on earth, i sure wouldnt want this to tarnish my name in ANY WAY.... id just come up front and answer the questions, if i couldnt, i would admit that i was wrong... that shows more integrity than bickering and avoiding questions in my mind.
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recycle your pets

as this is NO WAY directed at Bill.
In the past, when something 'new' is produced, the breeder comes to a place like this, posts pictures, AND tells ALL THEY KNOW about the snake they are referring to.
I remember when Jeremy Stone did this with the Motleys. It was done the same way with the T Albinos (forget who posted those first), done with the ghosts (Bill or Doug posted what they did to get to the parents that produced the ghosts, what was bred to make the ghosts i.e.: het to anery, het to het, etc.).

There just needs to be some more info given before one can just call it a "X" (morph).
Actually I am quite surprised that Bill has sold any. NOT because of the beauty of the snake, but I would just think that people would be asking a lot of questions and apparently (at least here) there are no answers.
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=568703&uid=445943

Is this a genetic Arabesque or another kind?

np

looks like a circle backed colombian to me... maybe im wrong, but this is what the arabesque coined by steve hammond looks like..

this image is linked from pete kahls web site... hopefully he doesnt mind

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recycle your pets

>>looks like a circle backed colombian to me... maybe im wrong, but this is what the arabesque coined by steve hammond looks like..
>>this image is linked from pete kahls web site... hopefully he doesnt mind
------------
of Arabesques. In the spirit of the ongoing discussion of names of morphs, I was wondering what kind of Arabesque Bill's is. I was looking at his Genetic Striped Jungle South Brazilian that was pointed out in an earlier post, and I saw this male Arabesque. It doesn't look quite like the ones I'm used to seeing, so I wondered if this is an Arabesque in name only......or does it have some "Arabesque" genetic material to support the name???

Bill probably called it a Arabesque before Steve did, just like Bill said this about the Salmon before Rich produce and coined the name.

Little sarcasm never hurst does it?
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

you that thought completley escaped me.... good point!
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recycle your pets

>>Bill probably called it a Arabesque before Steve did, just like Bill said this about the Salmon before Rich produce and coined the name.
>>
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....but Bill's male is probably not old enough to pre-date Steve's Arabesques, unless - of course, Bill's is a reincarnation of the original first-ever Arabesque. Then...that would shed a whole new light on the matter.

You missed the part below my above quote that said something along the lines of, a little sarcasm never hurts.....or something like that.

My point was, I was joking.
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

We've got to joke about this a little, or else just go and bang our heads against the wall. Maybe I'll go do that now.

does that mean i got on the arabagle waiting list for nothing??!!
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recycle your pets

I know, no worries!
You take care of those beauties you have over there.
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

*LOL*..."tommyboy" you catchin' any 'o this? one might imagine the "liberties" someone like this could take with less "identifiable" things,like specific bloodline localities? not that anyone would ever do such a thing,of course....I'm just sayin' tho...

You have a way with words - that's for sure. First, there's "Cungle", then "Arabagle" and now "Salmon Notley". Heck, Doood, one of these days, if I'm ever lucky enough to produce something wild and whacky and weird, I'm gonna get you to name it!!!

Very inspirational,if Bill would've just called me....I could've helped him write his Otto Biography,and,perhaps a "King William's" version of the dictionary? I don't think he was trying to rip anyone off...he just had...like writers block,or,something?

wouldnt that be writers 'block back' ?

heheheh, yer killin me tim, and its rubbin off!
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recycle your pets

Good catch bro...

I saw it last night but was not going to mention it. You can read my post above under Mickey's thread he started. It speaks to it there.
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

"Salmon/Typo Notley"...(from the "Pewter Mini-Series" )I think he began his work with those shortly after the "Crustaceaous" period?...it's all documented on the missing Dead Sea scrolls though,and,of course the dictionary as well...

no post
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

Bill,

First off, let me start by saying that I posted the email that I sent you below 9In the form of a post) so if you wish to post it here that is fine. I will be the first to admit that it was a little harsh but those that know me know that it was in fact mild compared to how I can get when defending something that I am passionate about. Now as for the animals that you produced using that male....I did in fact sell Alex 2.1 True Colombians from Lloyd's stock....What female did you use to produce your true Colombians? Was it the one that Alex sold you? I would have a little trouble thinking she was big enough to breed because as I remember she was small when I sold her to Alex.....And if memory serves me correctly I remember him saying that she was very small when you got her...Again, I remember Alex telling me that he sold you a gravid animal but it was not from the Lemkee line..I also remember you telling him that you would keep the line pure...Anyway......As for the line being ugly, I would beg to differ but I am bias...So with that said I will end on the following: I DO NOT AGREE with what you are calling your animals...If you had the Kahl line and someone came here with a name like American Jungles you too would be angry and ask questions. I also think that you could have avoided alot of this by answering questions but chose to not do so..Should I need to clarify anything else I will be happy to do so!

So what you are in fact saying is that there is a CHANCE that Bill is selling something thatis not what you know it to be. In other words selling soemthing to be offspirng of an animal that was not old enough to breed? Very interesting, but I guess there is no reason to question his integrity, right TommyBoy?

Amazing how gullible people are.........just because someone posts snakes up for sale all the time and just because they post here all the time means they are on the 'up and up' in the industry.
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

Brian,

What I am saying is just what was said to me....In my opinion the female would not have been big enough to breed and Alex (He can add more) told me the same thing. Hope this helps and in the end it is up to the consumer to be aware of what he or she is buying....unfortunately the reptile business is not regulated by the government and no one can be held accountable for selling something that is not actually what they are saying it is...IT Jungles, Salmons...ETC.....I will add that Bill is not the first one to try this.....There are many others that have out right lied about the genetic make-up of their animals! Fortunately they are not around anymore or at least they crawled back under the rock in which they came!

I am not trying to pin you down, but I AM trying to understand this.
What you were told was that Bill is possibly selling snakes as something they are not because the snake that would have to be used to produce such is not big enough....from what you were told. Am I correct?
You are correct, buyers DO need to be aware of what and from whom they are buying (just a general statement).

I would like to hear Alex's side to thins, or better yet, the whole story. I think this is VERY important for all of us to know and hear!
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net