Reptile & Amphibian Forums

You know with all of the bickering going on here (and yes I acknowladge I am part of it) I have to wonder.

In this day and age, with the internet, and shows, ect, does getting your name out AT ALL COST help businesses.

I know it sounds like a stupid question, but more and more I have to wonder. I rember when Neil (and no offence Neil if you read this) Gubitz had all the problems going on faunna (the boi) he once made a statement to me I found odd. At the time I really questioned it but more and more I wonder if its true.

Neil stated that "every time his name was brought up on the boi, good or bad, business boomed".

With that said, I always felt that IF people were shown to be dishonest (and again not directed at Neil, or even Bill, allthough Im sure he will say it is if he reads this) in their dealings, that they would be run out of business. That it would be only a matter of time.

However have we gotten to a point where any mention of your name, good or bad, is considered by some to be good to business?
If soo we are in a sad state, and its only going to get worse.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

I have heard that from many people in the past, both here and on other sites.
All I can say, if indeed it is true, that in SOME cases (not all cases have proven that someone should not buy form them) that I really begin to wonder about the people that DO buy from the mentioned breeder.
I have seen cases that prove without a doubt that someone flat out ripped someone off, lied about an animal, etc. and then I hear later that someone bought from that person. How stupid are people these days?
Then, in some cases, those same people come crying that they were ripped off as well. If I could reach through the screen and choke them, I would....LOL.

Michael Whitfeather is a prime example. Look at all the people he screwed, but then those that were ven involved in a thread about him, go and buy with similar results. HOW STUPID!
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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

Mickey, you are correct it is sad that no matter what people do as long as their name comes up they will survive if they choose too. Good Publicity or Bad Publicity is still Publicity! With that in mind maybe the best way to rid our business of the ¡§shady¡¨ or ¡§dishonest¡¨ people is to ignore them. If no one had posted a reply to Bill¡¦s message, he most likely would not have posted another like it, but since it caused a stir there have been several more.

Now it is quite obvious certain people no matter what business they are in live for controversy, i.e. Eminem, Dennis Rodman, Herman Stoekl, etc. (Sorry had to throw that in there! ƒº) This is something these people need to get through their day and good or bad it¡¦s a part of them that we have to deal with.

Next, I am going to address Bill. It seems to me that you are along the same lines as the people I discussed above and that is ok as long as you stay within the realm of good business ethics. I tend to agree with Mickey when he says that these animals are being misrepresented and to an uneducated or ¡§Rookie¡¨ keeper they might purchase them thinking they are Real Jungle or Salmon Boas like the ones recognized in the Boa Constrictor Manual and on some of the websites like out very own kingsnake.com. Now, as far as calling some Salmon Boas, this is a gene that has been recognized by the journal of heredity and you simply cannot call your boas Salmons because they are not even Hypomelanistic and that is one of the characteristics of the real Salmon Boas. You can call them ¡§Salmon-like¡¨ or ¡§Jungle-Like¡¨ Columbians, Brazilians or whatever locality they are, but not Jungle Boas or Salmon Boas.

You have some very nice animals Bill, let them speak for themselves, I would love to have some of the animals you have, including the Aberrant Brazilian Amarili. Now, we have done business in the past and I have no personal issues here, I am just tired of seeing your posts that are derogatory towards other keepers on this forum and abroad. We love seeing your animals, but most of us don¡¦t care to hear you beat up on other people or misrepresent your animals, so let¡¦s just try to keep it above the belt.

If you still need some controversy, I am sure that there are plenty of people who would love to debate localities, the best way to breed boas or morphs vs. localities. Take your pick!

Let me apologize to anyone I have offended, if I have. I just felt like this needs to end so we can all just go back to sharing experiences and pictures of the hobby or business we all love at least until someone else starts this up again! Take Care Guys.

Brandon Weik
Summit Reptiles

summitreptiles.com

Brandon,
I hear what you are saying, but alow me to quote you...

"If no one had posted a reply to Bill¡¦s message, he most likely would not have posted another like it, but since it caused a stir there have been several more."

Now, if this is what we do in life, REGARDLESS of what the subject matter is (it could be anyting other than snakes as well) people will start believing that it is ok. You know as well as I that people, at times, do things to see if they can get away with it. If nobody calls them on it, it will continue. Do you see where I am coming from?

Ignoring people works in some cases. One could be the person who just comes on here and does nothing but cut down people's snakes. That would be someone I would agree to ignore. Yet, one who comes here (again, cold be ANYONE) and says that they have something and there is question from 'Joe Public', why wouldn't someone call them on it.

I agree, the drama sucks. Believe it or not, I hate it. I am NOT one who likes to argue and you of all people I think would agree (regarding past). I like to make sure all is well, see people ahppy, do what I can do to keep people happy etc. On the other hand, I call things as I see them.

Now to Bill directly.
I had a post all typed up and it was QUITE long, but I hit the wrong button on the pc and lost it....long story. So I will try again to remember it all.
Bill, I have ZERO against you. I wish you would understand that. Like I just said, though, I tell it as I SEE it. That does not always mean I am right, but until I am shown otherwise, I can have an opinion. I have heard you say that to people before when they confront you on something. Just because people hear something they do not like to hear does NOT mean the person speaking has something against you.
I have stuck up for you 'til the bitter end on an issue a couple years ago here on Kingsnake and also when it spilled onto another site. If I thought you were such a bad guy, I would not have done so.....trust me!
On to the snake/s you have. I am not saying there is not something there, that is indeed of genetic material to call it different. All I am asking is to share with me what you know. Have you bred the animals to a NON RELATED snake? If so what was the result? Have you only had or seen this type of expression of color in snakes produced by the same parents? If so, that does not tell us much at this point. You say you have F-3's. That would mean that APPROXIMATELY 6-8 years ago this trait was first seen. Just to make clear of what I am saying: you would get the original babies (F-1) and raise them, breed them together and get F-2's, raise them and get F-3's. As much as you like to post pics, why haven't we seen these before? If you did not produce them, which I thik you said, why did 't the original breeder ever tell anyone? After all that time SOMEONE would have known about these 'American Jungles' don't you think?
I do feel that it takes years of breeding (same animals and even one of the same into a different animal) before someone can call it anything. Salmons are a good example. Although Rich got the same result when breeding the same parents in the beginning, he still outcrossed it to see the results BEFORE he called it Salmon. That is all I am asking of you. Was this done with your line? If so, why not take FULL CREDIT, and just to make sure there is no contriversy, call it something unique unto you!?!
I am NOT knocking your hard work. You work, just like most of us, as hard as we can. Learn what we can on a daily basis etc.
You do have some awesome animals. I have told you that in emails RIGHT TO YOU before and also here on the boa forum. I have inquired a couple times about snakes, true, I have not yet purchased anything. No particular reason, just haven't. I enjoy seeing your snakes as much, if not more, than you do sharing them.

Now a couple things that do bother me. I would have been more than happy to discuss this on the phone when I called at 1:30 EST today, but you did not answer and I have not heard back after leaving my number.
1. I do not apprecaite being told I am not "man enough" to call you. I told you in email and a post right here on KS what my lame excuse, yet true, was. I will share it with you again. My cell phone has free long distance, therefore a couple months ago I canceled my long distance on the home phone. Please feel free to verify this with people that have bought from me. My wife keeps it with her while at school and work and it is only here in the evening to use. I told you on the email (I think it was) that I thought it might have been to late to call alst night.......looking to be CONSIDERATE of YOU, Bill.
2. I think your wording of snakes is shady. I think it is misleading. Like is has been mentioned and I said it yesterday, a 'rookie' (as you call them) mightnot know the difference between your 'salmon colored' snake and a "Salmon" boa. One mightbuy from you expecting to get offspring that looks like "Salmons" and that is far from the truth. Same thing with your 'American Jungle' compared to what we all know and recognize as a "Jungle". You also have a boa on your site (picture site) that is titled 'Motley'. Have you proven that one as well? It does not say 'motley type', it just states 'Motley' and you sold it for $2,000. It does not look anyting like the "Motleys", again, we all kow that are there and proven. Quite a bit of money for a snake that has block type saddles like we see so often on this forum. Care to comment on that one?
3. You throwing out the term 'rookie' as if it is a bad thing. Was there ever a time where you were just starting out? I have kept snakes (even bred some to your amazement) for over 15 years. Does that make me a 'rookie'. I took it personal as you used such discriptions under my posts and/or replying to them. I know that you have only kept TRUE red tails for 5 years, does that make you a rookie? I know that a lot of what you have is purchased and then resold............which is ok, just trying to understand your term, 'rookie'. Where do you fall in regarding this?
4. Let the animals speak for themselves. They are awesome animals (talking about any one you might have). Unless you have gone through the steps that others have in order to justify the snake even being given a name, it is just a pretty snake.

I THINK that is it. You said I was not man enough (which, by the way was a silly statement) to call and I did call today, Bill. I would really enjoy cahtting with you. I am not looking for an arguement, I am sure you have some good info to share and would like to hear it. I called like you asked, left my number on your machine, now the ball is in your court. I am up until 1am every night, at least, feel free to call any time if you are up to it.

I hope I didn't forget anything, I am tired of typing.......LOL

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Brian Oakley
Phoenix, Arizona
BrianOakley@cox.net

PLEASE HIT YOUR SPELL CHECK BEFORE YOU POST.

First I have not once used my spellcheck, and to be honest Im not sure how.

Second I wouldnt start to use it when typing here.

Third of all the post that are on this page, what made you point out that I needed to use my spell check. Sure my spelling is FAR from perfect, but generally speaking you get the point of what Im saying, and not to bag on anyone on the forum, but Ive SEEN MANY MORE POST with far more errors then mine.

Fourth, while we are criticizing (sp?) each other why not turn your caps off, it comes off as RUDE.

And in closeing, I type on my television from across the room. As such, half the time I type on feel. So lets just be happy I dont type like this......upit sm sdd og upi esmy yp [pomy piy ,u d[r;;omh/ you know one key over...we get the point.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

IT REALLY DOES NOT SURPRISE ME THAT YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PERFORM A SPELL CHECK. IF THE REPTILE COMMUNITY WANTS TO BE TREATED AS INFORMED "EXPERTS" THEN WE NEED TO BE PERCEIVED BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC AS INTELLIGENT INDIVIDUALS. PART OF THIS PERCEPTION IS PROPER GRAMMER!

or any kind of "expert" on anything.

Again what caused you to pick out my post over all the others on this page to point out grammar errors? Do you have some kind of a "beef" with me or something. I dont know you from Adam, so if you do I would love to know why.

And again if you want to throw stones about grammar, when typing people generally PUNCTUATE things rather THEN TYPE IN ALL CAPS LIKE THEY ARE ANGRY OR UNABLE TO TURN OFF THE CAPS LOCK.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles