Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I would like to add a few comments in addition to what terrapene posted below: "In the book "The Leopard Gecko Manual" by Advanced Vivarium Systems (1998 Vosjoli, Viets, Tremper, Klingenberg) under the section "Other Animals" reads: "I have successfully maintained pairs of collared lizards (Chrotaphytus) with these geckos". He also mentions that South African Flat lizards and small girdle-tailed lizards have been kept successfully with leopard geckoes..."

In his book "Desert Vivaria" (1996) de Vosjoli says that, "You can mix various species of lizards in large desert vivaria, as long as you give care to selecting animals of more or less the same size that will inhabit different vavarium niches. For example, those geckos that dwell on rocks or walls will be compatible with many terrestrial species. Nocturnal geckos, which emerge at night , will be compatible with diurnal species of lizards of similar size".

In the book "Rhacodactylus:The Complete Guide to their Selection and Care" (de Vosjoli, Fast , and Repashy) the authors have this to say about mixing species..."At the onset, let us state that we do not agree with the righteous, narrow-minded assertions by 'experts that these geckos and other reptile species should never be kept with other species. The highest form of herpetoculture involves creating large complex vivarium systems where several species of animals, including invertebrates, will cohabit and breed"

This pretty much sums up how I feel about the idea of mixing species. The authors go on in that book to talk about the basic theories behind establishing these kinds of set-ups. I plan on doing a mixed species set-up in the spring with Rhacs and a pink tongued skink if I can get a hold of one. I know of at least one other forum member that is interested in doing the same...

What I would say to people who have asked the question here before about mixing species, to try and find people who have done so successfully and ask questions. There are many Naturalistic vivarium keepers that have done so for a while now.

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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

I agree that species can be kept together...however I think its a touchy subject. One thing I will definitely say...is that when keeping separate species together they should all be from the same geographical area, as that means they will be most likely to tolerate the same parasites and diseases, and probably won't carry something that would be lethal to the other species. Also, I think only the very experienced should attempt multiple species habitats. That's just my opinion...
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Christina

1.3.1 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)

-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)

-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)

-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

1.0 Australian Shepherd/Cattle dog cross (Foster)

Well, you wouldn't want to use animals that don't have a clean bill of health anyway, so I don't think parasites should really be of concern. I think basic experience with keeping single species set-ups and an understanding of theories behind keeping multi-species set-ups is all thats needed to get started. I just have a problem not encouraging exploring these other aspects of our hobby. Are we not here to promote the growth and evolution of our hobby as a whole...or are we here to promote a stagnant view of how we should be keeping our reptiles. Hopefully, by years end I will have enough experience keeping multi-species vivaria to help guide other forum members interested in doing the same.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

I didn't so much mean parasites...mostly I meant diseases that some species will carry without any symptoms, but will kill other species. I just don't think a species from africa for example should be kept with a species from South America...that's just asking for trouble...who knows what diseases each of them could have hidden that could kill the animals of the other species. Although obviously that isn't so much of a problem with captive bred animals. I guess I also just don't understand why you would want to keep species from very different parts of the world together. Also, I don't think discouraging beginners from trying to keep multiple species in one habitat is making the hobby stagnant...its just protecting the animals. That's not to say that someone who's done some major research one what they can keep together and how shouldn't try it...but generally most beginners and even some who've kept reptiles for years won't do proper research and will stick random animals together that might end up killing each other, or that just won't do well together.
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Christina

1.3.1 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)

-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)

-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)

-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

1.0 Australian Shepherd/Cattle dog cross (Foster)

I hear ya Christina, I agree with many things you have to say. What bothered me about the thread a ways down was this response to a person asking what lizards (if any) can be kept with leos..."No other reptiles should EVER be housed with any other species of reptile only herp you van put in with a Leo IS another Leo housing mixed species is a very bad idea, that thought should never even cross a herpers mind."

I have a problem with that kind of response to a basic inquiry about mixing species, especially when it is coming from someone who has probably never tried it before. Rather than discourage someone from something, why not admit to not having any experience with what they are asking and point them in a direction where they might find more info. That's how I feel about it, and that's why I posted the references I did.

By the way, since I know substrates are one of you favorite topics...lol. There is an interesting section in the Rhacodactylus book about "bioactive" substrates...for display cages they suggest a potting soil mix that contains no perlite. To that they add about 5% sand and about 15% fine orchid bark. You can make the soil "bioactive"meaning it readily breaks down fecal matter) by regularly stirring the surface layer towards the bottom. This,the authors say, allows for the development of bacteria and fungi that will breakdown the waste and keep the substrate functional. Interesting stuff in my opinion.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

I totally agree with you about that interspecial keeping....lol (didn't feel like typing more...) It bothered me a lot when that person said you should never keep different species together under any circumstances. That substrate thing is very interesting! It sound like composting to me. Very neat, thanks for mentioning it!
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Christina

1.3.1 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)

-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)

-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)

-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

1.0 Australian Shepherd/Cattle dog cross (Foster)

Sounds like the concept of a biological filter in an aquarium...

The trouble with lots of issues in the herp world is that people like to see things in black and white. For example, in the original post, the poster asked if he could keep anoles and leos together. That obviously wouldn't work. But it's not true that any mixing would never work. I've also seen people post that sand is a horrible awful killer substrate for all herps, and that's not true either, but it's very bad for some herps at some times. People will always argue over grey areas, I guess.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

everyone is entitled to their wrong opinion....LOL...I just think that's a funny little saying...
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Christina

1.3.1 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)

-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)

-0.0.1 albino (supposed Tremper)(Spitfire)

-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

1.0 Australian Shepherd/Cattle dog cross (Foster)

Would it happen naturally, like in a fish tank? That means the substrate would have to be somewhat moist and it would generate heat, right? Or would the UTH accellerate the process?

I think what you mention is propably correct, although in a cage with Rhacodactylus you would not need a UTH. I am pretty sure that the fecies itself innoculates the soil with the bacteria to start the proccess. I not positive though. I can quote some more from the book, in the subject later...I need to get to work right now...lol.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

I've housed multiple species before with no ill effects to any animals. I had 2 leos and a golden gecko in a 45gal long for years. I have a friend that keeps day geckos with fat tails. He has a 90 gal with 5 fat tails and 3 giant day geckos. He breeds both species and hasn't had any problems with parasites or disease. The day geckos stick to the top half of the tank and the fat tails have the floor, it works out well.
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The universe is vast and we are so small.
There is only one thing we can truly control.
Whether we are good or evil.
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0.2.0 Normal Leopard Gecko's
1.0.0 Patternless Leopard Gecko
0.1.0 Veiled Chameleon
1.0.0 Bearded Dragon