Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Female from Reptile Artistry (Bob Johnson)

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Appalachicola kings and not "goini"? I ask because, after reading everything I could get my hands on that the L.g. meansi are either striped like the male, or patternless. This female seems to look like a "goini". I don't know the differences, but I want too. Is it because of the light markings in the middle of dark scales?

I'm totally confused with this whole issue particularly since I'm new to these animals.

Bob Bull

Well the female and the male are brother and sister first of all. Goini or Blotched Kings have a more chain like pattern. Females are usually not striped or patternless this was proven out by Means and Krysko but you do on occasion get striped females and even patternless ones. Im no expert on these so I will not further my thoughts as I may be wrong. Sean Belanger could probably answer your questions more precisely.

Keith
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Great pics, Keith - glad the snakes arrive safely after their adventure!

I have not read the final findings of Means and Krysko, but I believe that the type speciman for "goini" was from west of the Apalachicola River and a bit more inland (a part of the range that is now considered the intergrade zone between the patternless/striped kingsnakes and the Eastern king) and that the higher percentage of patternless/striped snakes (but not all of them) are from east of the river, closer to the coast.
There are others that know a lot more about this than I do, would like to hear what they have to say,

Here is a pic of the father of the two snakes that Keith got from me. Offspring have been patternless, striped and various degrees of blotching. The males have always been the striped/patternless ones in this bloodline.

Bob Johnson

Reptile Artistry

man thats an ugle Apalachicola ! Send it to me and I will save you from looking at it all the time. Its the least I can do. LOL

Keith
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>>man thats an ugle Apalachicola ! Send it to me and I will save you from looking at it all the time. Its the least I can do. LOL
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>>Keith
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I appreciate your kindness - It is a burden that I must carry, to look at such an ugly snake all the time! LOL! Thanks for your generous offer!

What's this with the typos on this forum - its almost reaching epidemic proportions. (I'm glad your post wasn't about your pines.)

Yu peeple knead too lern how 2 spel!

Bob Johnson

http://www.reptileartistry.com

Here's your basic Eastern King:

>

Eastern Kings over time have swamped the area where Apalachicola Kings exist and the resulting intergrades (goini) basically have dark interbands with wider bands. They typically look like this as adults:

Or this:

Or even this:

Apalachicola Kings come in blotched, striped, and patternless forms and are much lighter. The interbands in Apalachicola Kings undergo a considerably greater amount of lightening compared to the intergrades. Apalachicola Kings look like this:

Or this: (this one is a juvenile and will lighten considerably as it it ages)

Or this: (this one too is still young and should lighten considerably)

And even this:

Basically Apalachicola Kings are patternless, striped, or a much lighter banded form as adults. If you have an adult king that has mostly dark interbands, it is an intergrade (goini). Keep in mind the banded form of the Apalachicola King and the intergrade will look almost identical as juveniles as the Apalachicola King will not have lightened yet.

This is pretty much what I get of the Apalachicola King but Krysko's paper in which he names them has not come out yet and should explain things much better than I have.

I was sold a "blotched king" and told it was either "goini" or appalachicola (sp), that these terms were all interchangably one and the same. Later I got another one, with the same understanding, only he was an adult, compared to the 6 month old female I got. Here's a picture (hopefully) of the young female, which I'll follow up with an older picture. I would love to know if there is some sort of distinction you can make over what to actually call her. I have no young pictures of the male.

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~Sasheena

n/p

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~Sasheena

I would say she is an Apalachicola King. Her interbands (blotches) are very light. Also, take a good look at her bands and notice how the yellow and black are seperated by a straight line. I'll explain more in response to the pic of your male.

Many breeders call these kings "goini" whether they are patternless, striped, banded, or even an intergrade. The name "goini" has basically been applied to all kingsnakes in the Apalachicola region but it originally described ONLY the intergrade. It is now considered to be an invalid name but people still use it.

n/p

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~Sasheena

Now your male looks more like the intergrade. Notice how dark his interbands (blotches) are...they have some speckling but not very much. And take a look at his bands. Notice the black spots on the scales? I believe the light and dark colors on each scale should be seperated by a straight line...looking like this:

Your male looks like it has randomly placed dark spots on each scale in the bands. I'm not sure where you got him from but judging by how red your one offspring looks below this post and how peachy-tan your male looks, it may be mixed with something else. I'm not saying it is but I know many people have bred hypo Florida Kings into the Apalachicolas to get very red looking Apalachicola Kings. They look beautiful as juveniles but they turn into that peachy-tan coloration as adults. Do you remember who you got your adults from?

Jeff's pic above that you helped him post of his Hypo Brooks X "goini" is exactly what I was talking about. People breed these together and then breed them back to "goini" and sell them as "blaze phase goini" or "flame goini". I would definitely ask the breeder questions about these if I thought about buying them.

I don't really remember what the female was sold as... Tangerine Phaze Blotched Kingsnake I think was the actual advertisement. I'm still in contact with that person, who did not breed the female, but bought them from someone else, so I will see if I can ask her about the origins of the female. The male I chose out of two from the president of the local herp society, one was "het for blaze phase" but I chose the one I now own as I felt he was more character-filled.

So what exactly should I sell the offspring as? And does anyone have a breeding sized male appalachicola they want to give me?
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~Sasheena

Yertyl and Sphynx are the two holdback babies from the eight eggs we got by breeding Phantom and Pandora. They had 8 eggs hatch, one hatchling was a bright solid red with a thin dark stripe and that one died. One was a more buckskin color, and one was very dark with just slightly darker irregular markings. She had 2.6 for a sex ratio. The babies are EXTREMELY FEISTY even still!

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~Sasheena

Bob Bull

Great visual guide, Sean - Thanks!
Bob Johnson's snakes

I see you were able to locate a pair finally. I'll save room for one for when you start breeding them!
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Tim