Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hes a 20.5 inch male orange (or yellow) pastel german giant (501.5 grams). Hes 1.5 years old and was bought to put with my fiancees 8.5 month old 18 inch sandfire yellow gold (383.5 grams). He was sent next day by 10:30 am, but was put on a truck instead, he was sent to the wrong state during 33-39 f degree temps with no heat packs in a styro cooler in a box, he spent from day 2 through day 6 in a storage dock in 8-33 f degree temps, at the end of the holiday weekend he was air expressed to us finally. Hes a tough animal to go 7 days in sub freezing temps then 45 minutes out of the box he mounted her the first of 6 times that day, and many more the following days. I doing minor adjustments to their new cage. I keep them in almost similar conditions to my monitors.

I have no doubt that you take care of your monitors. I am also sure that you are also taking care of your bds as well as you can. I am certainly not an expert myself and I am new at taking care of bearded dragons myself so I can't really give you advice on that. But I can tell you that in the short time I've been on this forum I do know that there are several things that are guarunteed to cause you problems if you make a post stating you did or didn't do something. You managed atleast 5.

1)Not quarantining the new animal
2)Housing 2 animals together
3)Housing a male and female together
4)Not getting a fecal
5)Breeding a female that was potentially too young

The reason why you got a hostile reaction was because you are dealing with professional breeders and when you didn't quarintine, didn't get a fecal, started breeding immediately with the intent to sell the offspring you may potentially introduce sick and/or infectious animals into the market. I say you intend to do this because you have done so before. If you DO unintentially introduce sick animals into the market the breeders here may end up with them and those animals die in quarintine or those animals may be bought up by somebody else who doesn't quarintine them then all of his animals die. Either way you could be an animal by not being careful. Plus you could make breeders look bad by selling sick animals.

Also housing multiple animals, especially a male and a female, can cause stress to the animal and they could die from that. If your animals don't fight or the male isn't constantly molesting the female 24/7 thats cool, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

Like I said before I'm no expert but I've done some reading about this and I would rather be too careful than not.
Now that I've carried on this long I would like to point out one more thing. Don't expect friendly responses if you make personal attacks. I thought that Christj was overacting until I saw your response. You just make things worse doing that.

"started breeding immediately with the intent to sell the offspring you may potentially introduce sick and/or infectious animals into the market."

1)I dont intend on selling anything nor do I intend on becoming one of the "I gotta banner on my posts, so Im an expert hear me roar" types.

"I say you intend to do this because you have done so before."

2) You have accused me of doing something but on what basis? I have kept the animal as pets for a hobby, and if these 2 produce offspring well then its just a normal thing for them to do.

" If you DO unintentially introduce sick animals into the market the breeders here may end up with them and those animals die in quarintine or those animals may be bought up by somebody else who doesn't quarintine them then all of his animals die. Either way you could be an animal by not being careful. Plus you could make breeders look bad by selling sick animals."

Again where have I said Ill sell any offspring to anyone nor do I care to.

"Also housing multiple animals, especially a male and a female, can cause stress to the animal and they could die from that. If your animals don't fight or the male isn't constantly molesting the female 24/7 thats cool, but it's better to be safe than sorry."

I know how to tell a stressed unhealthy animal, they are the ones that people take to the vet with mouth rot, respiratory infections, dehydration, etc etc. ya know the common medical problems in captivity for so many. By the way those are results of improper husbandry, an animal that has no immune system, after all all of those are opportunistic secondary infections, ask a good vet.

"Like I said before I'm no expert but I've done some reading about this and I would rather be too careful than not.
Now that I've carried on this long I would like to point out one more thing. Don't expect friendly responses if you make personal attacks. I thought that Christj was overacting until I saw your response. You just make things worse doing that."

Yes she overreacted and her entire series of responses were just that personal attacks, nothing more. I merely pointed out obvious problems and issues with her person attacks. I dont know her at all nor does she know me but she attacked so I referred the obvious. Ive never claimed to be any expert but an experienced hobbyist, that also knows the biology of lizards and that if they get along together they are fine but if they dont they need to be separated until she is cycling. Shes nowhere near too young at 8.5-9 months and over 18 inches 383.5 grams. Im no expert but I know her first cycle was at around 6 months and she has cycled since, its common knowledge that a lizard female matures very fast, and reproduces very young, they have to in the wild, and their best efforts and most offspring occur from their first reproductive season into their first few years. After all the old arent found much in the wild, because thats natures way.
The animal I got is from a very reputable breeder (a long time breeder), and I know the breeder of my female, so I see no reason to quarrantine any reptile that is in obvious perfect health, came from a reputable source, and can easily survive 7 days of below freezing temps to be ready to go in less than an hour as if it never happened. And especially is captive born and bred and was kept alone before I obtained him, was raised alone and is under 2 years old and never bred before.
I attacked nobody on this forum, I was attacked though.

that picture and his legs are like sticks, that does not appear to be a very healthy animals from the photo.. maybe its just a bad shot or maybe being in a box for a week with no food, heat, uvb or water..... yes that could do it.

I hope he recovers as he does need to. Personally I would NEVER put one that looks like that with any females of mine.... your girlfriend agreed to this?

Also

"Shes nowhere near too young at 8.5-9 months and over 18 inches 383.5 grams. Im no expert but I know her first cycle was at around 6 months and she has cycled since, its common knowledge that a lizard female matures very fast, and reproduces very young, they have to in the wild, and their best efforts and most offspring occur from their first reproductive season into their first few years."

Where are you reading or learning this? How do you know she "cycled"? Did they make ovameters for dragons now?

First year clutches ESPECIALLY very young females are the smallest and most prone to problems, including the female herself.

And not quarantining is just plain foolish, playing russian roulette with your animals well being and flies in the face of every expert that I have ever read or spoke with. These experts study and treat these animals, with degrees behind their names.

I remember a long time well known breeder a few years ago that dump viral infected dragons on the market and managed to kill off a large portion of the population of them here in the US, from, people that did not quarantine.. they are not around anymore, colonies were wiped out.

I hope she does survive this, and her future, sounds like she is in for a hard life.
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www.reptilerooms.com

What problems specifically can happen to a female that is bred at what you consider a young age? I'm open to learning what the risks might be, but I just never witnessed any problems with my females that have all bred under 12 months of age. Could you also tell me where I could read up more on these risks?
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

is what your dragons look like I can not remember every seeing any or talking to others that have purchased any. Maybe some day you and others will share them with us

I for one would really like to see what dragons from you raised with no UVB, producing offspring under a year old and what they later on look like say 2-3 years after this routine?

I am not saying its not possible, just I have never seen it or even pictures of them, yet have seen the poor results of others that do it.

As for your question:

Dr Kathryn Tosney on variations in survivalBased on my experience, dragons can breed from at least 10 months old. However, the first matings often produce unfertile eggs, or embryos that don't survive until term. The second year is much more productive, but fertile eggs can be produced earlier

Its common knowledge that females produce larger clutches later, not early..... there are exceptions but rare, any forum, list or charts on breeders site tell you that, here's one you can look at in case you missed it.
www.dachiu.com/care/eggrates.html

Check out any reptile medical forum, that should certainly answer your questions also. Younger females have more problems recovering and produce less clutches per year and less eggs per clutch plus more egg bounds. As in most species, even in human species, young mothers have high risk, high fatality rates in offspring and more defects..how can you think that they are better... when they are not even grown themselves and need all the nutrients they are taking in for their own growth and development?

Looking at private breeders (not those that do this as a sole commercial venture) just reading this forum alone tells you who is successful, how and why. So successful in fact that larger breeders seek out and buy their offsping. Talk to Chris Allen or JoelR, both who have high demand lines and sell for a reasonable price. Or look at Mattman and Brandon, who allowed theirs to grow to their full potential and have people waiting in line for those offsprings because they allowed them to wait til they were in prime shape and fully grown and have some awesome adults to show for it.

It's not me saying it, its all over this forum! How many complaints or poor thriving offspring have you heard of theirs compared to raves on them?

Then look at how many people are seeking help for complications they created in breeding not ready, poor shape dragons and the problems with the offsping.
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www.reptilerooms.com

"Its common knowledge that females produce larger clutches later, not early..... there are exceptions but rare, any forum, list or charts on breeders site tell you that, here's one you can look at in case you missed it.
www.dachiu.com/care/eggrates.html"

I won't argue with that. Clutch size and numbers are dictated by size generally speaking. I'm glad you posted that chart, because there are few interesting things to note of.
1999 chart:
1. There are two 8 month olds, one laid 6 clutches, the other two. This shows a big difference among the same age breeders. To me this suggests that age may not play as much a role on clutch size as does size. I wish the chart showed weights. One female has a perfect hatch rate while the other has a near perfect rate.

2. The oldest female has the worst hatch rate of the whole group. The most interesting is the 5 month old that has a perfect hatch rate. How did these offspring fare? I don't know, I never asked. I can only assume they have done as well as there other babies. I'm fully aware of the other variables that could effect hatch rate and assume that the conditions are more or less the same for all dragons.

I have never experienced with my dragons any of the mentioned problems with breeding before a year, besides low clutch sizes, which I fully expect and don't consider a problem. I have never witnessed poor recovery, stunted growth or weak hatchlings. I don't know what I'm doing right that others are not. Could it be the husbandry and not the age that are causing poor results with others? I speak for myself, but know a few larger scale breeders that have similar husbandry practices as myself. Their results are that same as mine. The mountain of anecdotal evidence produced by these people are in direct conflict with the notion that age has anything to do with the ability of a female to successfully breed, recovery from breeding, and produce healthy offspring.

>>
>>Check out any reptile medical forum, that should certainly answer your questions also. Younger females have more problems recovering and produce less clutches per year and less eggs per clutch plus more egg bounds. As in most species, even in human species, young mothers have high risk, high fatality rates in offspring and more defects..how can you think that they are better... when they are not even grown themselves and need all the nutrients they are taking in for their own growth and development?

Again, this goes back to husbandry. In a healthy dragon that is receiving all the nutrients it should, this won't happen. A breeding dragon should be getting more nutrients than non-breeding animals. Just because the problems you mention have been witnessed, you can't just conclude that it was the age that the animal was bred at that caused them.

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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

til their dragons are mature to mate, tend to have excellent husbandry to begin with as they care about the animals first and foremost, not sticking a male and female together because they have one of each to "see what happens" DUH..... or eager to lower the overhead and produce the profits fast.

They also seem to have larger dragons overall and extremely healthy as that health is not compromised while they are growing up with producing eggs and all the calcium it takes from them for the yolk and shelling. God knows we can always use some more normal size dragons and not the 15 inch ones so common in the US now and becoming available in such abundance.

To these people, their dragons are their pets and they want to look out for it so it has a long healthy life with them, they are not commercial breeders (although there are a few that do still adhere to that same thought). And no, I do not think it is size, its their own maturity, most are ready at 2 years, but I have 600 gram female dragons at almost 2 years that are NOT ready to breed although we try then, but are well ready the next year and grew themselves another inch or two in that time.

It really comes down to what you want out of your dragons and what you are willing to give them to get it.

I for one will stand in line waiting for the ones that have nice big hearty dragons that are mature themselves and have proved their health and vitality and not buy babies produced by 8 month old mothers bred to fathers within days (or minutes) to her without quaratine time...... to me that is not very wise.

You and others of course, are welcome to do as you choose, their your dragons and babies, best to you and them.
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www.reptilerooms.com

"Where are you reading or learning this? How do you know she "cycled"? Did they make ovameters for dragons now?"

I learned the hard way how to tell when a lizard cycles, its opvious with a big healthy female, just look at them you can see it. I saw this also the first time in 2 monitors over the years and didnt realize what happened, when it happened the second time with my large albig monitor I learned it well after she became egg bound from bad nesting (improper substrate). It shows in snuggels and in several others I can get regular access to.

As far as thin look at the pic above then the others above, hes perfectly healthy in appearance, I see many many very obese beadies as adults in shows among the breeders collections. In my opinion Snuggles is a bit on the heavy side, but being a reproductive age female thats fine. Nemo in no way is thin or light, hes over 1 pound in weight at 20.5 inches. I dont see where his legs are thin, as every beardy Ive seen on this forum has very thin legs, actually I have seen very few adult pictures on this forum, why is that? Not just now but over a few years Ive noticed on all lizard forums the few and far between adults anywhere? Because I believe most never live that long to become adults. Ive dealt with reptile rescues, and I know what skinny or fat or dehydrated, or emaciated unhealthy beardies look like. I also know several breeders that house their animals together 24/7. Its amazing the opinions you have about Nemo being thin, but to me hes a big heavy strong male, Im not saying he couldnt gain a few ounces but hes in no way thin, and those are normal appearing legs as well strong if saw him jump 4.5 ft from one basking spot to the other.

Snuggles at 383.5 grams is a bit on the heavy side and a big healthy female?

I guess it really boils down to what each person individually feels is mature and grown and ready to go through the task of being gravid and egg production. There was a large breeder in here that said you could breed females from age 10 months on and he was doing it, but then he is out of business now, too many complaints and death in animals in this age with computers and mass communication spreads info fast.

I personally feel that letting them reach their full maturity is better for them. They still need what they are taking in for themselves to grown and develope.

But.. I still feel not quaratining is a formula for disaster. I asked about your girlfriend as we often notice on here that it is men that are quick to breed very young females as soon as they have one of each sex, and not the women.

Also, your are not accurate on the young producing better, age 1.5 and over historically produce larger clutches, more clutches, more viable offspring and recover faster.

Not many adults on here? I have 11 adults, to age 5, in fact, most the people I know on here regularly have adults.
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www.reptilerooms.com

but one. In the one you posted on this thread his legs looked thin and on one of the others his skin is very wrinkled (which can be just dehydration)

It might be just the angle of the shot or the dragon when you took it, but they do look thin in those, the overhead full body shots look better.
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www.reptilerooms.com

Congrats on recieving Nemo alive!! I had a rat terrier that was like that survived Heart worm than I adopted him and he survuved an attack by a cyote in our back yard, I Live in Tucson, He lived to be 14 before he passed. Some animals are just very tough surviors. Good luck!!!!!!

I am curious....you mentioned in another post you have no intention of selling off any offspring from your two dragons. What do you plan to do with the offspring? Even a female as young and small as yours can still produce 10-30 eggs over the season, thats alot of new dragons to take care of, not to mention the cost of incubating and raising the young, purchasing and setting up all the enclosures you need to ensure they are not over crowded, and of course, all the crickets needed to feed the babies.

Im not in the business to sell or make money at my hobby, its no fun then, hobbys are to spend money on. I will probably give them to a friend and his wife (who do sell animals as a business) to increase their available breeders some day (they always make room for beardies, as breeders and pets). I may get a few dollars each (for those he sells) to spend on the animals themselves and their care. When I sold a few sandfire/ yellow golds to people, I made back what I spent on them and kept the biggest most aggressive fastest growing one by far (our female). I spent more on crickets, waxworms, superworms, mealworms, hissing roaches, etc in a short time with our female beardie and my ackie alone than what I spent buying 10 of those baby beardies. The biggest part of insect diets I feed to my animals come from my 2 colonies of lobster roaches, they are fed the best and all of my animals lovem and grew very fast on them. I only invest in bug stop, veggies, fruits, flake fish food, and time, to use them as feeders. I could probably feed 10+ beardies off of those 2 small colonies and not badly dent the population, but I also give a few hundred of them every couple of weeks to a friend whose colonies cant keep up with his animals (alot of em).
This is why I said I dont sell animals, there is no banner advertising any business below my posts, Im a hobbyist, I enjoy the animals and caring for them. Besides the prices most beardies sell for is way too high, the price fluxuation in almost any color morph from one add to the next, one breeder to the next, etc demonstrates that. I wouldnt feel right charging someone what most beardies sell for.

He is 567 grams, and she is 482 grams.