Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I used to get babies galore then for some reason my production dropped off dramatically. Even my best breeders quit getting pregnant or would only have very small litters. I thought it was because I changed their diet, so I switched back. With this, they all started getting pregnant again but several of them have either killed all, or almost all, of their babies, or they plop over dead just before they pop. No one appears sick. None are old. All are experienced mothers. Average 2-3 litters so they're not worn out. Temperatures perfect. Routine's the same. Any suggestions as to what is going on?

Thanks....
MissHisssss

Hard to say...virus maybe, or something in the new food is toxic to them. Probably the only way to know for sure is get a necropsy done on one of the dead mice.

How can mice get a virus when they never go out to pick up germs? Not unless they were harboring it and the change in diet through them off. But there were no signs of sickness when they plopped over. They were just ready to pop.... and then plop. Although, now that I'm thinking about it.... there was one that hemorrhaged during birthing and she not only killed all her young, but also all the babies that her cage mate just had. I put her down, but it was obvious she was dying.

As far as their diet... I just changed the ratio's of the food they were already using is all. Oh wait... I did add a few morsels of a different brand of dog food for one day, but discontinued it until I (hopefully) figure out what's going on. But that wasn't what did it. This problem started before then. Any other thoughts? Like I said... this is a tough one.

Thanks,
MissHisssss

Virus comes to mind as well, just takes time as well.

Or perhaps they are stressed...

Or maybe just bad genetics or something

"ploping over dead before they pop" could be an indication that they were having trouble giving birth.
And killing/eating their babies may be a way for them to gain the nutrients they are not getting. What are you feeding them? Do you let them have any fresh fruits/vegies at all? Like LdyPayne said though, the only way to know for absolute certain is to take the body to the vet and have it checked out.

And get different mice?

Goodluck!
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1.1 Ball Python, 0.1 motley amel corn, 0.1 western hognose

I feed a constant supply of Mazuri Rodent 6F blocks and a handful of Super Game Cock seed and Ole Roy dog food mix three times a week. This is what I fed them when they were doing GREAT...and this is the formula I switched them back to.

I was thinking that their dying just before giving birth, and right after (from the hemorrage) that it might have something to do with whelping complications... but so many... so close together is what has me in question? I could understand if they were sick.... but there they are eating, playing, cleaning, acting absolutely ok when I check on them in the morning.... and a few hours later... DEAD. I could understand if it was happening to a group that had 7 or 10 litters already... but to have this happen only to youngsters that are on their 2 and 3rd litter baffles me. Is there such a thing as a womb virus? Maybe an infection like dogs and horses can get called Brucillioses (spelling). Actually, this would just render them useless as breeders (sterile)... or kill the babies before they are born. Not kill the host. Or perhaps it's a genetic thing that someone has heard about? I thought I might add that this is happening in groups that have unrelated partners, so it's not from being inbred too much.

Thanks for all the input.... any more thoughts?

MissHisssss.

one possibility is that even though the mice are still in the age range for breeding, they are starting their downward slide. Once that happens, maybe they are not as able to fend off illness as when they were younger. I have had what I thought were perfectly healthy breeding groups do this on me. Whenever it starts, I kill that group off and start another. Wish I bad a better answer for you.

Denver Tom

They way they're all dying around the same time makes me wonder if there's some kind of problem with the bedding (possible pesticide exposure?) or something along those lines outside the cage.

Have you sprayed for bugs lately? A neighbor?

Painted?

Had a gas leak? Checked for a gas leak? Carbon monoxide level increase? (I'm sure you know that people used to keep birds in their house as a precaution...the bird would die so they'd know there was a problem.)

Used a different cleaner in or around their cages?

It's harder to breath when you're full-term so my guess is, the mothers are dying because of their stress system already. Sometimes animals act weird (neurologically) when they are dying. For example, snakes bite themselves uncontrollably if poisoned or overheated, etc. Eating the babies may be a neurological problem (not enough oxygen to the brain).

I'd have to say that Sybella's thinking makes the most sense...it could even be something as miniscule(sp) as the city you live in changing the level of a certain chemical they use to treat the water, and it just happened to upset your colonies. My grandmother was a vet prior to her passing in '98, and you'd be amazed at the littlest enviromental changes that can impact our animals; things we don't even think about (i.e. the neighbors getting their annual termite treatment)
Wish you the best luck

Kim and clan

Thanks ya all. These are very good ideas, and I wish it were one of them so that I could fix it. But not only am I chemical sensitive and can't use any type of insect sprays, I also haven't painted; I had my heater checked for carbon dioxide, and the company that supplies our water out here in the sticks doesn't add any chemicals or I would be sick too. (This is one of the reasons why I left the city). As far as the bedding... I have not changed my supplier, but ya never know. But wouldn't they at least sneeze or something? It's only been about five or so girls that's died and three or four that have killed their young, but it just seems odd that it's all happening at once. And only girls too. Odd. Any more ideas? Like I said, this is a tough one.

Thanks to all so far....
MissHisssss

>>I used to get babies galore then for some reason my production dropped off dramatically. Even my best breeders quit getting pregnant or would only have very small litters. I thought it was because I changed their diet, so I switched back. With this, they all started getting pregnant again but several of them have either killed all, or almost all, of their babies, or they plop over dead just before they pop. No one appears sick. None are old. All are experienced mothers. Average 2-3 litters so they're not worn out. Temperatures perfect. Routine's the same. Any suggestions as to what is going on?
>>
>>Thanks....
>>MissHisssss

I would still tend to think a virus. Either Sendai or SDA or heck, hepatitis.... there are a lot out there.

You can do a search here and get some pretty good info.
http://www.rmca.org/Articles/dchart.htm

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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

my little brother has a small colony of mice for his snakes. they would breed for a couple of months and then go down hill fast. dead, eating their young, etc. my mom ended up talking to one of her friends who is a vet. she said that because he was feeding them dog food they weren't getting enough iron? she suggested a varied diet with dog food being a filler. I'm not sure what iron has to do with all of it but i'm a big believer in a varied diet, not just dog food. later, chris

>>my little brother has a small colony of mice for his snakes. they would breed for a couple of months and then go down hill fast. dead, eating their young, etc. my mom ended up talking to one of her friends who is a vet. she said that because he was feeding them dog food they weren't getting enough iron? she suggested a varied diet with dog food being a filler. I'm not sure what iron has to do with all of it but i'm a big believer in a varied diet, not just dog food. later, chris

This is a possibility but doesn't explain why this wasting away happens to some groups but not others. Heck I have groups that have had 5 or 6 litters ea mom and still make monster pups and others that react just as she has discribed after 2 litters. I am still thinking virus.
Heck I am amazed I haven't had a rat trouble in well over a year. Of course I haven't brought in new rats much. (did pick up a pair of blazed/badger faced that were too cute for words.)Rats are the ones that 'usually' have respiratory
troubles. Last time I had a virus go through I had rats spew blood all over and drop dead with only a day or so of light sniffles preceeding it.
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Sonya

Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with the software.

I feed a steady diet of Mazuri Rodent 6f and only a handful of a dog food and super game cock seed mix three times a week. But they used to do an excellent job on this diet. Perhaps things got botched up when I changed their diet for a while. That's when the production dropped anyway... so I switched back.

That iron thing sounds interesting though. I could emagine these girls get pretty drained with all their pink and milk production. I just wouldn't know how much to add and be safe.

And to Sonya... thanks for your advice and the link you put in your post. I'll start studying that right away.

Hope I'm not too late to jump in on this one.... the symptoms you describe (in your mice) sound very similar to symptoms described in a few of the "pet rat" forums I read. I did some searches and found those threads, then went into some of my own rodent health links to see if I could find some sites that might prove helpful. This is what I came up with... it may not provide solutions for you at this point, but maybe you will find some explanations?

http://www.skyclyde.com/KRV.html

http://www.radil.missouri.edu/RADILinfo/dora/mousepag/mouse.htm

The first link is specifically about rats, but I'm guessing that it's possible mice could be affected by this same virus. The second link is an outstanding (IMO) resource about mouse diseases in general. (It has a section on rat illness as well.)I've got many other links as well, say the word and I'd be happy to pass them along. =)

Something that I read time and time again (only anecdotally, so of course take it with a grain of salt) is that even the act of going to a pet store and being near or holding rats or mice that are infected is enough to transmit any airborne viruses or bacteria to your own colony. Personally, I have not been breeding long enough (or on a large enough scale) to come to my own conclusions about this.

I have only one other suggestion, and this one IS from my own experiences, which would be to ask if it's possible your colony is being "visited" by wild mice? In all the research I've done, I've not been able to come up with no source describing the affects of wild mouse-borne illness on a colony of lab mice and other rodents. All I can say is that from my personal experience, it seems to produce symptoms that are very bizarre, and nothing like symptoms described anywhere else (either "technical" sites or "pet" sites.)

Anyway, I am sorry to hear you're experiencing this and I hope the trend stops and things improve for you! Sounds like you've received some good advice in this thread thus far. Something I've started doing (with a new group of mice -- just holding on to them for a friend and keeping them in my classroom... far, far away from my home LOL) is feeding a seed/grain mixture that I found on a pet rodent site. What makes me mention this is that the mixture is bound together with molasses, as this is a good source of iron and other minerals. Feel free to email me and I can point you to the link if you're interested!

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Rebecca
TSBabe66@hotmail.com
Honored to moderate at Snakefeeders, a great place to buy/sell/trade feeder animals. Come check us out! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snakefeeders/

Please tell me about the bizarre things that happened as far as your mice being exposed to the wild mice .... and also if you could add the other links you mentioned. I almost asked for them through your email address but thought that others might be interested in their contents as well. Anyway, I do occasionally have a wild mouse appear... even though I have traps and poison out for them. Perhaps this is my culprit.

All of these answers have been fantastic. I couldn't have asked for a better response.

MissHisssss

>>Please tell me about the bizarre things that happened as far as your mice being exposed to the wild mice .... and also if you could add the other links you mentioned. I almost asked for them through your email address but thought that others might be interested in their contents as well. Anyway, I do occasionally have a wild mouse appear... even though I have traps and poison out for them. Perhaps this is my culprit.
>>

I'll do my best to respond without writing too long of a novel.... <g> I'll put the links at the end for those who may want to skip the commentary.

First I should say that I am only making suppositions about all of this, but also that I'm fairly certain that the wild mice were indeed the cause of the demise of all the mammals (mice, rats, and a guinea pig) I had living in this apartment. Second I want to add that I was breeding small scale, balancing a strange fence between feeder breeding, (classroom) pet keeping, and a growing interest in the genetics of rats and mice.

Before I moved into this apartment (located in Wisconsin) I maintained a thriving, though small, colony of mice and rats in Northern Illinois. I had had a few mild brushes with the usual rodent illnesses and found many websites (both "pet" and "technical" in focus) that addressed how to treat these illnesses -- this is what led to the collection of links included at the end of this post.

When I moved to Wisconsin, August of 2002, the critters of course moved with me. When the weather got cold the apartment (second story of a 100 or so year old farm house) was visited by deer mice. Initially it seemed only a mild nuisance. I never could catch any of them with a snap trap, so would use glue traps. Was told by landlords that a) all extermination was the responsibility of tenants and b) I was not to use poison as they would crawl into the walls and die, etc. and c) both downstairs neighbors had cats so I was "to expect" the mice to gravitate to my apartment.

I'm sure the room I kept the rodents in was tempting to these deer mice, as the rats would fling food etc. out through the bars of their cages, something impossible for me to keep up with in terms of keeping this food source away from wild mice. Long story (somewhat) short, the mice did NOT go away when the weather grew warm again.

I started noticing more and more the droppings of wild mice on the tops of my cages. I had also discovered that the glue traps would only work for so long. I'd catch up to six or ten or so, then the traps stayed empty. I'd put them out a week or so later and would maybe catch a few more. These mice seem pretty darned smart. (They're still here, by the way..... I'm making plans to move but it's not so easy in the dead of winter!!)

Around March/April of 2003 my colony of mice and rats gradually started succumbing to illness, with symptoms unlike any I had ever seen. Some of the groups of mice were fine. Some seemed to be getting ill/dying with more "typical" symptoms (fur getting ruffled, back hunched, weight loss.) But one morning, in a quick check on the rodents before heading to school, an entire cage (a mother and a fairly large litter of just-over-weaned-age pups) seemed to be dead. But not the way mice usually appear dead! They looked like they were in suspended animation. As if they'd been walking around and then were just 'frozen.' I picked up the cage, jostled it a bit, nothing moved or was breathing. I was terribly late to work and left, knowing I'd have to dispose of the carcasses when I came home.

Low and behold, when I came home.... this entire cage, save two or so pups, were ALIVE and seemingly well! After this point, however, "waves" of this weirdness came across the colony within a short period of time. Each time more would be dead and it wasn't too long before I had lost or had to euthanize everything. To be honest, I am not one to become "emotionally attached" to animals to any great extent. This, however, was devastating. In great part because I was "mouse-sitting" for a good friend and all of those mice, too, perished.

I am leaving out much information, am not getting into the various attempts to treat/medicate etc. I did not have a necropsy done, something I now regret. My suspicion that it was, indeed, the deer mice that caused it, was reinforced recently when I agreed to keep some mice temporarily for a friend (replacements for the same friend mentioned above.) This time, I brought the mice directly to my classroom at school, save one tank of a mother and 4 weaned pups.

One of those pups (after being in the apartment for a short while) showed exactly the same symptoms. One day seemed "dead" with that "suspended animation" appearance." The next day was alive and appearing normal. I did euthanize it after that. The other mice are fine, and I have decided to keep them here as long as they are healthy. I do not want to bring them to school, risking infecting (?) the other mice. If they appear to be sick I will euthanize them, otherwise they will be snake food as needed.

So that's my long drawn out tale. I strongly suspect this is not what you're seeing! In fact, it really sounds like what you're seeing is what was described in the first link in my other post. The KRV link. Although, as I said, the source was about rats not mice.

So that's my story. I hope the following links are helpful to you. I have many more but they are directed toward the "pet" rodent owner. I'd be happy to share those to anyone who asks of course. Best of luck -- looking forward to hearing updates from you!

http://www.hilltopanimalhospital.com/mice&rats.htm

http://www.marvistavet.com/index.html

http://www.vspn.org/vspnsearch/aow/drugtherapyinpetrodents.htm

http://www.vspn.org/vspnsearch/aow/illnessinpetrodents.htm

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp

http://www.cah.com/library/micratdis.html

http://www.animalhospitals-usa.com/small_pets/mice_rats_diseases_infections.html

http://netvet.wustl.edu/vmla.htm
vet mailing lists - may have some good sources?)

http://www.ratfanclub.org/diet.html
"pet rat" diet that should address an iron deficiency. I made major adaptations/substitutions to the seed mix and am currently using it to supplement a dog food diet for both rats and mice.)
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Rebecca
TSBabe66@hotmail.com
Honored to moderate at Snakefeeders, a great place to buy/sell/trade feeder animals. Come check us out! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snakefeeders/

THANKS so much Rebecca. Your story was very interesting (and bizarre) and the links will really come in handy. I plan to study each one of them and I hope to find some answers soon. I'll keep you posted.

Thanks again....
MissHisssss