Reptile & Amphibian Forums

After coming to terms over the loss of my Savannah Monitor, (I don’t know if I’ll really ever get over him) my mind now is turning toward what monitor to consider next. For those who have not read the Varanid Cancer thread, I lost my Savannah to cancer after owning him for eight years.

Aside from owning a Savannah monitor, I have had overall 18 years of experience with working with various reptiles, including caring for Water and Nile monitors, but the Savannah was the only monitor I have owned personally.
I have a fondness for this species, so I know my next reptile will be a Varanid of some type.

I would like to know what recommendations the community here can make:

The following is a quick summary of the environment I had for my Savannah:

Habitat:
An oak cage 7’L, 3’W, 3’T and was made by the Reptile Housing Authority (BTW: Anyone know what happened to this company? I cannot find their website anymore.)
When occupied the cage maintained distinct thermal gradients, ranging from 70F to 88F ambient temps to a basking area that averaged 120F. My complaint with this cages design was the incredibly narrow area for placing ceramic heat emitters and basking lights. I intend to modify this, to increase the area of the basking zone. Any recommendations anyone can make, especially if you’ve had experience with cages made by Reptile Housing Authority would be really helpful.

What would be an ideal lizard to own:

1) An animal that could live its life out comfortably in the cage I currently own, although I will happily consider a monitor that could live comfortably in this cage for a period of a year or two before it would need a larger environment.
2) I do not desire a “pet” lizard. I have an English Mastiff that is a fine companion animal, so I am not going to judge the suitability of monitor because it prefers limited interaction with humans. I would like to avoid monitors that that are known to be pre-disposed toward being highly aggressive, but I also know there are no guarantees in life.

I realize that my questions may be a bit vague, but I am hoping that other monitor keepers could share their experiences about the animals they look after.

Many Thanks for your Replies

-Kit

Perhaps a black throat? Heafty sized and generally good natured animals, I think this would be a suitable choice. Heres a thought...since you said you dont really need one as a pet, why not a trio of dwarf monitors? Could be a fun breeding project as well....

Michelle

After the death of my 12 year old Sav "Brutus",I decided to give the Blackthroat's a try.I bought a 13" little juvie and 15 month's later I have a great, 5' female named "Sweetpea".She is a very interesting and inquisitive big girl(great personality too).

Blackthroats are beautiful if you want to go big, but I wouldn't discount the suggestion of getting a few smaller lizards. Personally, we have become very fond of varanus acanthurus. Our yellow is a voracious little eater but also has an entirely non-agressive, intelligent personality.
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"no time for the old in-and-out love, i've just come to read the meter"

Emily
npoh.egomantra.com

..

darn tootin
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"no time for the old in-and-out love, i've just come to read the meter"

Emily
npoh.egomantra.com

Whatever you decide, get two.
The animal will be happier, and you will be too. Imagine how greatly improved the quality of its life will be. Is a long life better, if you have to spend every minute alone? Remember, your lizard is in a box, the chances for socialization in there are nil.

Black roughnecks and Dumeril's are medium sized, gentle animals. Neither one is known for biting.
If entertainment is what you want, look into the gouldii complex. All literature says they are ACTIVE. The "Flargus" crosses are said to reach smaller sizes than the argus, are less food aggressive, and are tons more colorful.
Or look into the smaller guys, they have many fans too.
Good luck.
D.

Dragoon,

While I do appreciate your take on keeping monitors in pairs, I do wonder somewhat about your reasoning.
Monitors are by nature to varying degrees solitary animals. In nature, another monitor, especially one of their own kind is generally regarded as a threat, or at the very least unwanted competition for food and territory, and during the mating season choice females or males.
With this in mind, are these animals really in need of a companion?

On the ather hand, I do sometimes wonder since the housecat also in its natural state tends to be a solitary predator, of course being mammals they do spend time and energy caring for their young when they have them. Captivity has changed them somewhat, when multiple cats are sharing a single home they do assert a kind of pecking order and when its established the "competetion" factor diminishes. Can this happen with monitors too?

Since I am soliciting all points of view, feel free to share your thoughts. Dragoon especially, tell me about your experiences that had you arrive to your position on keeping monitors together. I sincerely would like to know.

Thanks!

-Kit

I do not think any animal that is not capable of asexual reproduction can ever be truly solitary. Just because we do not understand the language, structure and groups does not mean they do not exist. And I personally have seen monitors show very social behaviors and I am very new at this.

In addition....OT...... but....
Housecats are by no means solitary.

In fact, they are much like lions in there social groups, complete with infanticide(sp?). Just because they are often kept in solitary conditions does not mean that is what they are, much like captive monitors.

--Robert

Thank You Robert for sharing your experiences and your point of view.

I suppose I will never be satisfied with a single answer regarding Monitor Socialization. I've found that generally, the answer that seems to come close to being consistant is it depends on the animals involved.

I have also read reports of Indoneisian monitors congregating in groups for no apparent reason. I wonder if this has ever been the case for any of the African species?
I will say that with regard to husbandry the issue of housing multiple reptiles together of any species is a tricky discussion simply because it adds to the responsibility and resources for the keeper, which by all accounts are often stretched pretty thin as it is for one animal.

With regards to housecats, I have been told by a zooologist and a breeder of cornish rex cats that in thier "wild" state they behave more like cheetahs than lions. It is the process of domestication and placing multiple cats together in limited spaces that causes the more "lion-like" behaviors.
If those assessments are true, could monitors through the process of domestication become social? Using the feline example as a case in point, it seems that its likely in time.

-Kit

I do think interaction with each other is a positive stimulus most of the time, but I do not completely agree with Goon. I think it is much better to learn the ropes of husbandry without having to deal with the possibilities of altercations.

The house cat thing, is just what I've seen with farm cats growing up in PA (long time ago).

Good Luck,

--Robert

Please Robert, I was grateful to you for sharing your insights, I am not one to get bent out of shape if someone doesn't completely agree with me, so feel free to express your views even when they do not coincide with mine.

I'm here to learn more about futhering my understanding about monitors, not to validate my assumption about them.

Take Care,

-Kit

Good Luck with whatever you decide.

--Robert

I think that, like dogs or any other captive animal/pet/whatever it all depends on that individual. Different lizards have different personalities; some want to be alone, some prefer a companion.
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"no time for the old in-and-out love, i've just come to read the meter"

Emily
npoh.egomantra.com

"Monitors are by nature to varying degrees solitary animals. In nature, another monitor, especially one of their own kind is generally regarded as a threat, or at the very least unwanted competition for food and territory, and during the mating season choice females or males."

This is your quote. How do you know this, please?
What makes you so sure that is a fact? Did you go look at wild varanids, of all types? Or did you read this somewhere? Because you read it in a BOOK, makes it true? I read a lot of BOOKS too, and the newer ones are very different from the older ones. I'd like to point out, ideas about monitors have done a 180 in a very short time. I read that Giant Lizards book, which was, 10 short years ago, I suppose considered good. Its pretty laughable now.
What is distressing, is when people insist the old ideas are right, for no reason other than, its what they were first told, and they don't want to learn anything new.

Back to the solitary thing. I haven't seen real wild monitors either, and I don't think it wouldn't matter if I had. Why, -is because of their habits. The females have smaller ranges than the males, and stay hidden more. Scientists trying to study them, would encounter males most often, and they would be alone, then wouldn't they? The females are underground somewhere. Scientists are generally above ground, not in the earth. There is a lot of stuff about why the males need to travel more, they need more food, more bulk, to defend that territory and the right to breed. Females do not move around as much, their job is to reproduce. The males come to them. Just because their husbands have a day job they must go to, does not mean, they are not married.
For me, it is easy to see how early studies would be miscontrued, and suggest they are not social. Add to that, captive husbandry was truly awful a short time ago. Read old literature, you'll see, the animals were given nothing that allowed them to be healthy.
What logically would you get if you added one stressed captive to another, (likely a stranger), in a cramped box (and ALL captive conditions are cramped!!), in bad conditions?
A fight, maybe? So then, its the animal's fault, right? We can safely conclude they are antisocial? To anyone who thinks that is logical: You are as dumb as a rock. No apology. And I won't argue it further.

I'm sorry I don't have many varanids to draw conclusions from. But a quick look at other people's pics will tell you, pairs truly enjoy each other.
My own animals are BRNs. I have now a pair, and a lone male. I had a hatchling who was gorgeous and soooo tiny when I got her. I so looked forward to seeing a baby BRN grow up. But I had no other BRN her size, and a friend did. So I parted with her, and she now has another BRN for company. That is all that matters to me.
My pair seem to get along fine. I'd be writing for HOURS if I were to list all the ways they interact. The lone male is rather new here, so I hesitate to draw any conclusions about him, but I can report this, he does not play. When I peek in on the pair in the tub, they are playing, no one will ever tell me they don't enjoy that water. But Blade just floats alone. And sleeps alone, and basks alone. When I look at the pair hug, nuzzle and climb around together, and then at Blade, I feel sad.
Sorry this is so long. D.

Goon,

Well I have to honestly say that like many, a large portion of my knowledge comes from books, although I do try and stay on top of the more recent literature.
Keep in mind that I am one of those individuals who is not committed to my opinions. I recognize that my assertions, being that they come from second hand sources (books, vets, other reptile keepers etc) are just that, opinions based on hopefully educated knowlege. But opinion nonetheless.
So, putting that in context, I can say I really don't know if monitors are social. enjoy the company of their own kind or they are plainly misunderstood by the reptile hobbyist and reptile community. The fact is, I don't really know.

The only thing I am certain of is that all of us are groping in the dark looking for answers to caring for reptiles, monitors especially. These creatures have not had the attention or sufficient research performed on them for us to know very much about all aspects of their behavior. Yet here we are putting them in our homes and essentially domesticating them and along the way we experience all these assorted behaviors which conventional thinking says is impossible. Social Lizards? Social Varanids? These concepts seem alien to us today, but in another ten years we may soon find out that these animals are telepathic and communicate incessently with one another
All I'm saying is Dragoon is that you may very well be onto something, or maybe like the rest of us, your opinion is your opinion. I'll grant you you having good results in the present, but are you also aware that as these animals mature over a period of the next few years their attitudes and behavior may dramatically change?
Please remember that I am not soliciting debate, you could be dead on correct, or perhaps not. If your success continues and extends to other monitor species perhaps we'll be reading your care books one day on proper monitor husbandry. Then you'll be authority! That's something worth striving for.

Regards,
Kit

...for being so nice to talk to.

I sometimes post, and it doesn't come out at all like what I was thinking.. I went to work last night, and hoped I didn't sound harsh or offensive. Thanks for not taking it so.

Yes, the point I was trying to make was, there is not much scientific proof either way. Written material is based on the author's interpretation, and is subject to more interpretation by the reader... so how reliable is that?

I think in all things, look at the animals for answers.

The muddy part of that is, are you basing opinions on a physically and mentally sound animal?? An animal that is wild caught, has been through severe trauma, whether its apparent or not. Stress kills. Stress also makes them kill others. Add to that the fact that a CB animal, one that has a clean slate, can be made crazy through mistreatment, (intentional or not).

I am not the least bit interested in writing care sheets or books. I am still in varanid kindergarden, and I know it. Frank Retes can make one observation, that makes me feel like I've learned NOTHING in the past year. And he has said HE'S still learning! hahaha, something to think about.
I'm thinking that I shouldn't post advice at all lately, simple questions that I can answer lead to more advanced questions, the ones I shouldn't answer. But the simple ones get to me, the ones where varanid suffering is at stake, and nobody's answering...*sigh*

An open mind is best. And caring. You seem to have both, I'm sure some animal's life will be better because you took it in.
D.

And Thank you Dragoon for reading my posts.

I think what is required of all of us in this hobby is that we need to take the initiative and begin the process of documenting our findings with regard to Varanid behavior. (I know I do plan to create a database for my next Varanid, still undecided if that should be a shared database or not)
A "Domestic" varanid, especially those that have been bred in captivity for a few generations are going to start differing from their Wild counterparts in subtle ways, and as time passes they will begin to change more dramatically especially when people begin a more wide-spread program of selective breeding not just for color, or body type, but for desireable traits like socialability and docility.
Based on our domestication of mammals, it seems likely that in a matter of a few tens of generations we may have monitors and other herps as "tame" as pet rodents, and in a few hundred generations as "tame" as dogs and cats. The difference is now we have an opportunity to document the change. Just my rambling thoughts for the day.

Take Care,
-Kit

Monitors are anti social,solitary creatures unless it's time to breed.

I think if we were put into similiar sorts of circumstances we could be labeled anti-social.

I wouldn't label any of my lizards as solitary, yes certain ones do not seem to get along with others in the conditions I supply. But, I do not know enough to say that the behavior is not just an effect of the conditions I give them.

I do think it is much better for someone to learn basic husbandry with monitors before trying to pair or group them. Managing multiple monitors together takes more than just one alone. Beyond actual injuries there is stress, which must be managed and minimized.

If they were truly anti-social (except when breeding), introducing adults (when not cycling) one would kill the other. And it would not take days or hours. From what I've seen they are quite capable of killing themselves within seconds if that was what they want. Luckily I haven't really seen them want to kill each other (I do not doubt that there may be cases were this is the case, but I do not think it is typical), only to send a message. When kept in small confines, these messages can get very dangerous, but that is because we are limiting their ability to get away from one another.

--Robert

Monitors are not deer,geese or even buzzards.In the wild they stay ALONE unless a mate or food is around.I've never seen a monitor video out with multiple monitors hanging out to socialize.Are you a monitor GOD that speaks for them?If so,I guess I could be wrong.(First time for everything).

I judge more for what I have seen with my monitors.

What have you seen with your pairs or groups?

If I was a God, I would understand it all, and I have never claimed that I do, I would never make mistakes, and I have many of my mistakes fairly well documented on the forums.

But your statement is ridiculous and over-simplified. It makes it clear when you cannot support it other than to resort to some childish personal attack.

Ohh... and you include food now....

And I have seen pictures of groups of salvator in Indo that weren't breeding or eating. I am sure there is also a lot of evidence about various species in odatria having colonies. There is a lack of a lot of specifics with varanids, what level of social interaction they have I do not know, but they are clearly not anti-social, anyone with some groups of monitors and eyes should be able to see that.

--Robert

Its really hard to accurately duplicate nature in your own home, but I cant say they effort isnt there. If only I had a couply hundred acres and millions of dollars to re-create an artificial africa/ indonesia/ australia...oh well, we make do with what we have. How are we to ever know the true behaviour of these animals from observing them in the crappy artificial boxes we build? How accurate can any research really be when done out of an aquarium?? I dont know that a few feet of dirt is hardly enough territory. From what Ive seen of my captive v. examthematicus research is that they tolerate each other, with little to no interaction. Its as though they dont even see each other. Ive got horribly cramped quarters though with 5, 6-8 inch
individuals all cramped into an 80 gal aquarium. I make up for lack of groung space with a deep dirt layer, very rocky/ wooded
outcrops...ive counted over 40 hiding spots and crevices, multiple watering areas and many small basking regions. Within the next month ill be moving them into a larger habitat... approx 8'x 4' of ground area.- compared to their 4'x 18'' that they have now. Im sure with maturity will come a much more diverse set of behavious than Im observing currently. Perhaps they will develope a hierarchy. Im going to begin a daily observational log though to help keep track of their growth and personality traits and such. Itll be interesting to see how it develops over the next year. I wonder though how pertinent any of my notes will be compared to their natural behaviour in the wild...Will it even be of any value???

-Michelle

But I highly doubt they shun all other monitors except at breeding time.

Hmmmm, you might get to see some behaviors on the cage move, that has always seemed to cause some discussions with mine.

Good Luck with those Savs,

--Robert

I'm sure it will be of value. As Robert said, it will be behaviors developed in response to the conditions that you provided...but so little is known and available about varanid groups, any observations will be interesting to hear. If more people would watch their monitors and share, maybe we wouldn't have as many myths persisting. (Like the monitors are solitary animals one.)
Thanks. D.

np

np

I believe that dwarf monitors make great captives. I keep and breed Kimberlys, you can read about them on my site by going to the link at the top of the page that I sponsor. I keep my kimberlys in a similar sized enclosure. thanks, Andrew

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Varanus Creations