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in general that is - not necessarily the biggest one you have.

Seriously. The definition of ratsnake is pretty vague. If you mean any and all snakes that are referred to as ratsnakes, then it would have to be Ptyas spp. (I can't recall which species of Ptyas is the largest).

If you mean species limited to the genus Elaphe, I'm pretty sure E. quatrolineata is the biggest. Sorry if I spelled that wrong.

If your definition of ratsnakes is somewhere inbetween those two extremes, I'm not sure what the answer is.

np

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Currently keeping:
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2.3 cornsnakes
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and lots of bugs, furry critters, fish and birds

Actually I think that is still right. I was going on a rumor I had heard that the Beauty Snake complex would likely be removed from the Elaphe genus. As of now that has not happened so I'm sure the Taiwan is the largest.

>>Actually I think that is still right. I was going on a rumor I had heard that the Beauty Snake complex would likely be removed from the Elaphe genus. As of now that has not happened so I'm sure the Taiwan is the largest.

According to Schulz, the largest Taiwan beauty measured was @ 106 inches...no way 11 ft. They were the largest ratsnake in the Elaphe complex, but they have been removed by Utiger et al. ('02) and put into the "Orthriophis". This has not been universally accepted. Have heard rumors of Elaphe species over nine ft., but those weren't official records. The largest black rat, according to Conant was 101 inches, I believe.

TC

Well, to put my two cents of knowledge into the subject, both Ptyas and Spilotes have been said to reach lengths of 12ft. However, only Ptyas korros has a standard length range of 10-11' plus, where as most Spilotes generally range in the top end 8-10'. Now, with that said, that doesn't mean that either could exceed the general length expectations, so a twelve footer could definately occure, but would more likely be found in the ranks of Ptyas, or at least more commonly found.

I have worked with Spilotes for a few years now, and the largest I have come across personally is a WC female I had a couple years back that was 8'7", with approximately a six or eight ince docked tail, which would have put it over nine feet.

I've been trying for the longest time, if anyone here can remember me asking all those time, to get a hold of Ptyas korros and P. carinatus for breeding projects and max size comparisons, as I want to own the longest colubrid on the planet(Ptyas korros, longest-Drymarchon c. melanurus, largerst[weight over lenght]). So if things go, maybe I can tell you guys for sure, and record a true verified length or two.

Anyway...enough of my rambling...Thanks for listening.
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Conrad
Too Fast Reptiles
www.toofastreptiles.bravehost.com

>>Well, to put my two cents of knowledge into the subject, both Ptyas and Spilotes have been said to reach lengths of 12ft. However, only Ptyas korros has a standard length range of 10-11' plus, where as most Spilotes generally range in the top end 8-10'. Now, with that said, that doesn't mean that either could exceed the general length expectations, so a twelve footer could definately occure, but would more likely be found in the ranks of Ptyas, or at least more commonly found.
>>

Conrad, I wish ya luck finding those Ptyas sps. They seem to be pretty rare in the U.S. I don't think many collectors want to try them since they are so large, non-constrictors, etc.

TC

I was hasty to say Taiwans, I should have said E. taenuria ssp. Blue Beauties have been measured in excess of 11'. Right or wrong, that data is often lumped with Taiwans in the scientific literature.

Regarding Ptyas, I do believe there was a specimen over 4' captured somewhere in SE Asia in the past couple of years. Spilotes may well average longer, but Ptyas has the current lead for an individual record.

>>I was hasty to say Taiwans, I should have said E. taenuria ssp. Blue Beauties have been measured in excess of 11'. Right or wrong, that data is often lumped with Taiwans in the scientific literature.

Chris, that would be over 132 inches. I have never heard of anything from the Elaphe complex even close to that record. Could you point me in a direction where I could read about that?

TC

Terry,

Unfortunately I lost my entire herpetology library (over 500 titles) and all of my journal reprints/copies in a flood this fall. I would not know where to begin to tell you to look for such a reference. I won't even swear it was "in excess" of 4 meters.

On a similar note, does anyone know how big the Spilotes at the Brookfield Zoo in Chicago was? I saw that animal in person back in the mid 90's and it was absolutely enormous. Last I heard it was no longer there so I assume it died.

I've got to stop multi-tasking while I'm on the computer. You asked about the Elaphe taenuria, not the Ptyas. I still have no idea. However, US importers received quite a few specimens 10' or more in length so it does not seem that unlikely that one would have been 11'. I believe I read some of those anecdotes right here on this forum.

The Largest Spilotes I have seen...I owned and she reached 11.2 ft before she died (presumably of old age). A bit short of the record but impressive. I had a plum tree that stood alone in a field that topped 12'. I used to turn mice loose on the branches and watch her catch them. She was very tame so there was no problem collecting her from the tree when she finished.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

The Largest Spilotes I have seen...I owned and she reached 11.2 ft before she died (presumably of old age). A bit short of the record but impressive. I had a plum tree that stood alone in a field that topped 12'. I used to turn mice loose on the branches and watch her catch them. She was very tame so there was no problem collecting her from the tree when she finished.

Wow, that's huge.
Any chance of seeing a picture of her?

greets,
gurkee

Sadly no, This was in 1987, so all I have is a battered old Kodak print. She and my ex disappeared about the same time. I later heard from her boyfriend that the spilotes had passed on. We had her for about 6 yrs nad she was well over 8' when we got her. She was a typical looking spilotes.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

What a pity.
Thanks anyway.

gurkee

Yeah, I really missed.................................the snake.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

n/p

Ratsnake is a generic (common) name for several not necessarily closely related snakes. Several unrelated snakes have the distinction of having that moniker, like the newly popular Rhino Ratsnakes.

Pytas is actually more racer-like.

Another questionable ratsnake is Spillotes pullatus; which is called a Tiger Rat, A Chicken Snake and a Cribo. The size record (according to Mehrtens)is 12'...The Champ??

Pick a genus and that's as close as you are going to get. For example: Pantherophis My local Biggy is the yellow ratsnake, which is also called a chicken snake. The largest I've seen was 7'11.5".

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

My point is exactly the same as yours. I was asking the question rhetorically, so to speak. I thought that would be anyone who bothered to read my post. Just because Ptyas is "more racer like" does not change the fact that that genus is called "ratsnakes" throughout much of it's range.

When I think of ratsnakes I think of the P. obsoleta complex having grown up in the US. But those are not really ratsnakes if we take a phylogenetic view. When I talk to about ratsnakes to a scientist colleague of mine in India he automatically thinks of Ptyas. Also not a ratsnake by any definition.

Hence the point of my post.

Ok.......Like how did I not get your point Chris? My comments were in fact in support of your statement. That is why I added the Spillotes and the Rhino ratsnake to Further illustrate the point that many diverse snakes are called Ratsnakes that are not related to what we locally concieve as ratsnakes. Under the "loose definition" the Tiger "Rat" is largest.

To answer the updated question...The Black "Rat snake" Panterophis o.obsoleta is unquestionably the largest. In Georgia I saw several wild specimens that were over 8'. Conant lists the record at 101" but I beleave that has been surpassed.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Sorry if I came off strong. I have had a horrible week and was (am) feeling a bit punchy.

I guess the fact that you answered a rhetorical question made me assume you failed to recognize the purposeful conjecture I had included in my post. Sorry about that, really.

But back to the point, I'm fairly certain the longest known colubrid is now P. korros. And although both Ptyas and Spilotes are at best distant relatives of the "true" ratsnakes, I'm fairly certain Ptyas is more closely allied, relatively speaking of course.

But then again, are we talking length or weight? I have only seen one truely large Spilotes and I'm certain it would outweigh any large Ptyas.

But it's still a mute point. A point that proves both of our points.

Ok whats the biggest US "rat snake"?

Thats not the question I wanted to ask before, but now I think thats a good question.

So then in reference to what a "rat snake" is - whats the distinction between old world and new world rat snakes?

While the black, yellow, texas, grey and 'glades all can get to impressive sizes, and folks will often note that the ones that "they have seen" suggest that one or the other (often yellow, black or texas) tends to be largest...I'm pretty sure that the black ratsnake still holds the record at 101 inches.
If you are personally looking for one that will get as big as possible, you might start with a breeder who can assure you (perhaps even show you) that he is breeding some very large, impressive animals.
Any of the above N. Am. ratsnakes, by the way, are FINE choices!
Duffy

>>Ok whats the biggest US "rat snake"?
>>
>>Thats not the question I wanted to ask before, but now I think thats a good question.

black rat.

>>
>>So then in reference to what a "rat snake" is - whats the distinction between old world and new world rat snakes?

Old World ratsnakes belong to genera such as Elaphe, Euprepiophis, Orthriophis, Oreophis, Zamenis, Coelognathus, Gonyosoma, Spalerosophis, and Ptyas to name a few. Some will agrue that some of these genera are closer to racers than ratsnakes, but who's to say how much racer or how much ratsnake is in each genera?

TC

Ok Terry, Now i'm confused. While I would agree that there is a definite relationship between the genera you mention (N.American)...I question putting Kingsnakes (Lampropelitis), Bullsnakes (Pituophis), Glossysnakes ((Arizona), Short tailed snakes (Stilosoma) and especially Longnose and Scarlet snakes (Rhinocheilus and Cemophora) into this mix. Me thinks you are painting with too broad a brush, as the divergence of these genera have radiated to extreme differences.

As to the Euro-Asian mess. The divisions that are now occuring are no surprise to me as I have argued that point for the last 30 odd years. It was obvious. Very few European ratsnakes actualy (structuraly)fit into a "Ratsnake" type as we come to expect it to be (for example; climacophora). Most (to use the common venacular) were more in structure and habit to Kingsnakes (examples: dione, bimaculacata which are very reminissent of Prarrie Kings "L. calligaster" )or of Racers(taeniura).

Common names have their value (as a marketing tool)...but not in the serious classification of snakes...as this thread clearly indicates.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>Ok Terry, Now i'm confused. While I would agree that there is a definite relationship between the genera you mention (N.American)...I question putting Kingsnakes (Lampropelitis), Bullsnakes (Pituophis), Glossysnakes ((Arizona), Short tailed snakes (Stilosoma) and especially Longnose and Scarlet snakes (Rhinocheilus and Cemophora) into this mix. Me thinks you are painting with too broad a brush, as the divergence of these genera have radiated to extreme differences.
>>
>>As to the Euro-Asian mess. The divisions that are now occuring are no surprise to me as I have argued that point for the last 30 odd years. It was obvious. Very few European ratsnakes actualy (structuraly)fit into a "Ratsnake" type as we come to expect it to be (for example; climacophora). Most (to use the common venacular) were more in structure and habit to Kingsnakes (examples: dione, bimaculacata which are very reminissent of Prarrie Kings "L. calligaster" )or of Racers(taeniura).
>>
>>Common names have their value (as a marketing tool)...but not in the serious classification of snakes...as this thread clearly indicates.
>>
>>Frank
>>-----
>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank, current taxonomy has the New World "Elaphe" and all the Lampropeltini lupped into a related group. Utiger et al. ('02), has used mDNA analysis to show the relationships. The Old World "Elaphe" have been split into a number of new and resurrected genera, with the remaining species in Elaphe being closest to the New World "Elaphe".

TC

ocuments and SettingsTerrence CoxMy DocumentsRATSNAKE HAVENRatsnake TaxonomyDISCUSSIONS WIT">taxonomy thread

Hi Terry,

I know what link you are talking about but I'd like to see it again. Unfortunately mine also disapeared in the already mentioned flood.

I'm specifically curious to this statment:

And regarding your post that Frank responded to, I also found the wording a bit confusing. It almost appears your're saying that since all the genera you listed form a monophyletic lineage that it's appropriate to call of them ratsnakes?

I'm sure you meant something else, however. Regardless, Pantherophis is a monophyletic lineage within the larger monophyletic lineage (the lampropeltines) you listed. That is by defention, of course, so we may see some species dropped from Pantherophis in order to conserve monophyly.

Just thought I'd throw that in there to clarify that for people who may have misunderstood your post.

I was not able to C&P your html.

This is the statement I'd like to read up on:

"The Old World "Elaphe" have been split into a number of new and resurrected genera, with the remaining species in Elaphe being closest to the New World "Elaphe"."

>>I was not able to C&P your html.
>>
>>This is the statement I'd like to read up on:
>>
>>"The Old World "Elaphe" have been split into a number of new and resurrected genera, with the remaining species in Elaphe being closest to the New World "Elaphe"."
>>

Chris, I'm having trouble posting links, and can't cut and paste from Utiger et al's paper, but can mail you the PDF file if you want to read it. What they call the MP Tree shows the relationships between groups with all the New World genera, including the Elaphe and the Lampropeltini, all in one group at the top of the tree. Across from it on the top of the tree is the Elaphe group. Those are the two most evolved groups. Branching earlier on the tree were other genera/groups, including Orthriophis, Oreophis, Euprepiophis, Zamenis, etc.

TC

Okay, but if by the same criteria we could call them all kingsnakes or all long-nosed snakes, or whatever.

But I think I need to review that literature before I comment any further on that. It's been a while since I read it.

I can see the link doesn't work.

Do a search for "Elaphe scalaris ancestral to New World Elaphe", posted 10-14-03 on the Ratsnake Forum, or try the new link below. The author of that post is RSNewton.

Can't seem to link to previous posts anymore, or maybe just the archived posts.

Later...TC.
taxonomy

>>Ok Terry, Now i'm confused. While I would agree that there is a definite relationship between the genera you mention (N.American)...I question putting Kingsnakes (Lampropelitis), Bullsnakes (Pituophis), Glossysnakes ((Arizona), Short tailed snakes (Stilosoma) and especially Longnose and Scarlet snakes (Rhinocheilus and Cemophora) into this mix. Me thinks you are painting with too broad a brush, as the divergence of these genera have radiated to extreme differences.
>>

I guess we can't just "link" to an archived post anymore. Anyway, I did a cut and paste on this one because it refers to the lampropeltini. Although there's been great divergence, it is thought they all came from the same ancestor, or ancestral genus.

Ratsnake relationships according to their lungs

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Posted by: RSNewton at Sat Oct 11 16:04:23 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

The following data is from Van Wallach (1998, Biology of the Reptilia, Vol. 19). The numbers given is the relative length of the intrapulmonary or right bronchus as a percentage of the right lung. 10 means the intrapulmonary bronchus is 10% as long as the right lung, and 90 means it is 90% as long as the right lung, for example.

Elaphe (Old World) 0.5-11
Coronella 4.2-6.6
Elaphe (New World) 11-21
Bogertophis 14-19
Pituophis 12-34
Arizona 46-91
Lampropeltis 27-58
Cemophora 73-75
Stilosoma 54
Rhinocheilus 85-86

Senticolis 2.3
Ptyas 0.2-1.7
Spalerosophis 1.3-3.5
Spilotes 0.7-1.6

From these figures and the generally accepted hypotheses of relationships among these snakes, it appears that the intrapulmonary bronchus started to increase within the Old World Elaphe, and that a species of Old World Elaphe with a relatively long intrapulmonary bronchus (at least 5-7% of the length of its right lung) migrated to the United States. This species is ancestral to Elaphe obsoleta, E. flavirufa and other species of New World Elaphe, as well as Bogertophis, Arizona, Lampropeltis, Stilosoma, Rhinocheilus and Cemophora. Senticolis triaspis is not a descendant of this species of Elaphe, since its intrapulmonary bronchus is much shorter (only 2.3%) and it is in fact closer to the racers than the New World ratsnakes. Based on morphology and the length of the intrapulmonary bronchus, the North American species of the Lampropeltini can be divided into two subgroups: the ratsnake group (Elaphe, Pituophis, Arizona, and Bogertophis) and the kingsnake group (Lampropeltis, Stilosoma, Rhinocheilus, Cemophora). Senticolis belongs to neither of these two groups. It may be part of Old World Elaphe or it may be a racer convergent upon the ratsnakes in morphology.

Bogertophis appears to be an early offshoot of the Lampropeltini, probably appearing as a genus before either Lampropeltis or Pituophis had evolved. Cemophora and Stilosoma appear to have descended from Lampropeltis. Arizona is most likely derived from Pituophis. The taxonomic position of Rhinocheilus is uncertain. It probably branched off just before the genus Lampropeltis evolved or alternatively it is a degenerate kingsnake.

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If you do a search on "RSNewton", you can find many of these strands.

TC

Now that is a surprise! I would have thought Bogertophis and Senticolis would be much more closely related due to the obvious external similarites.
What was the old world Elaphe species they used for this comparison? Is there any other criteria to back this conclusion?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

>>Now that is a surprise! I would have thought Bogertophis and Senticolis would be much more closely related due to the obvious external similarites.
>>What was the old world Elaphe species they used for this comparison? Is there any other criteria to back this conclusion?
>>
>>Frank
>>-----
>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank, the paper being used as a reference here had to do with a morphological trait..the intrapulmonary bronchus. But you're intuition is correct in that there are definately other traits reinforcing the conclusions. Most of the Old World and New World "Elaphe" have been examined for the intrapulmonary bronchus; and the hemipenes have been examined in other studies; then there's the usual characteristics that have to do with scalation, and external things. The big thing though is when genetic studies started being used to help classify.

TC

Yeah, I had the same thought on favirufa, but then a few years back they were argueing the closest relative to that was P. guttata.

I'm not sold on the accuracy of DNA testing yet. There is that question about that Lousiana Red Rat that is supposed to be it's own species. I think a lot more work has to be done to set proper peramiters there.

I think things are going to get more confused before they get better.......

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

And since the subject came up - are there any books or website that document the whole classficatoin of elaphes or any of the ones discussed (maybe even for all snake?)

Almost everything out there is out of date by the new classifications. However, the best book about the snakes formerly known as Elaphe plus what is left that are still called that is; A MONOGRAPH OF THE COLUBRID SNAKES OF THE GENUS ELAPHE FITZINGER klaus-Dieter Schultz. All snakes in this book are refered to as Elaphe but the information and photos are excellent.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."