Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a group of breeders in this general area
one is highly recomended by BP owners as a good breeder, and resource for new BP owners, but he seems VERY anoid at my daughters ???,
also he says it is inhumane to give a BP FT mice, that they need the kill, or they develope problems
another breeder says that some snakes have a preference ft or live, and he can provide an animal to which-ever WE choose
and most places say that live animals are MUCH to risky to give a confined snake
Personally I think any animal (even finiky little girls) can be trained to eat foods in different formats (case in point, my kids LOVE sushi, vegetables, and Octopus) without it being a hardship, or a danger to the animal in question

please be kind, I M new to Ball Pythons as pets
We are stil waiting for the captive bred ones to hatch
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Elizabeth (ecb)

'Good Judgment Comes From Experience
but Experience Comes From Bad Judgment'

OK, my experience and advise.....
I do feed live mice to my balls, but its only because that is the only option that I currently have. I have read that it is much safer to the snakes to feed them f/t for various reasons. The most outstanding that I remember are the damage that a mouse can do to your snake with its teeth. I closely watch when my snakes feed to be sure they grab right and do not get bitten. And I do not leave the mice with them for prolonged periods which could be dangerous. Personally, there is nowhere nearby that I can purchase frozen mice, I do not have checking/credit options to order and Im too softhearted to kill the mice myself.
Also, I have read that some snakes have a preference. I would say it is dependent on what they have been raised on.
Hope that helps a little.
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Jamie

I prefer to feed in this order:

FT, FK, Live

FT is safer and (in most cases) cheaper.
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Jay A. Martin

Definitely FT is my preference, and I can't say that Monty Python seems to care one way or the other. If it's a mouse and it's warm, he eats it! When I bought him, the breeder told me that "pythons will not eat FT mice, they have to hunt and kill it to know it's food." Total BS! I only feed live in a pinch, when I can't obtain FT, and I watch carefully to make sure Monty doesn't get bitten. Especially now that he is on large mice or rat pups, those teeth could do some damage to him! FT is cheaper, more convenient, and safer, and Monty is fat and happy on them!

P.S. Tried one of those frozen chicks once. He was terrified! Rolled into a ball and hid his head until I took the horrible scary chickie away! LOL

Wendy

>Especially now that he is on large mice or rat pups, those teeth could do some damage to him!

A rat pup might try to gum him to death, but those teeth aren't yet fully formed and able to do much damage. I stun medium rats for some of my BP's and never had one bitten yet. I would NEVER leave them alone with those horrible rodents, however! I prefer stunning them because I don't have to try anything "special" to try to entice the snake to eat. No waving it over their head and bouncing it...no trying to position it in just the right place so that the snake will HAVE to smell it...no worrying about "exploding" prey items that have decomposed to the point that they burst upon being squeezed...and no concerns about the dangers of feeding my snakes mice/rats that are not completely defrosted!

I'd have to agree with Sparke here. Stunning has worked best for me with my Balls. I think it depends too. If you're an owner of one or maybe two Balls, you might be fine fussing with FT. Email breeders, especially the "big ones". I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all of them feed live(I know of at least 2 off hand that do). Why? They have too many snakes to fuss with FT and I'm sure they'd waste alot of food doing it too, because Balls are so fussy about what they eat(there are always exceptions to the rule). If they refuse a live one, they just put it back in the rack, where as if they refuse a FT, you pretty much have to toss it, because they get nasty after thawing, refreezing and thawing again. In my experience, which is little also mind you, I find FT to be a pain in the you know what. I admit, they are cheaper, but I couldn't get my Balls to feed consistently on FT. Stunned or even FK sometimes, they eat like clockwork, once a week. I like my snakes well fed and not missing meals. I know some people say, well they can go months without food, but I don't have the heart to starve them, to get them on FT, when I know they'll eat Stunned or FK fine. I met a man a while back, who was insistent on feeding all his Balls, one live mouse, once a month. Crazy right? But, If you offer your Ball FT every week, but he refuses and ends up eating once a month, when you know he'd eat live or stunned every week, isn't this the same thing? I also have to wonder if letting them go without food for a while(other than in the winter when they go off feed), will stunt their growth. I would NEVER leave a live rodent in the enclosure for a long period of time, cause I've seen what they do to each other. They are nasty things and shouldn't be left unsupervised with a snake or for a long period of time. It all depends on what your snakes will eat, I think. If your Ball will pound FT every week, without hesitation, I'd say go for it. Do whatever works best with you and your snakes, but be smart about it also.
-Cathy

Email breeders, especially the "big ones". I'd be willing to bet that most, if not all of them feed live(I know of at least 2 off hand that do). Why? They have too many snakes to fuss with FT and I'm sure they'd waste alot of food doing it too, because Balls are so fussy about what they eat(there are always exceptions to the rule). If they refuse a live one, they just put it back in the rack, where as if they refuse a FT, you pretty much have to toss it, because they get nasty after thawing, refreezing and thawing again.

Okay, to me this is reverse logic. Big breeders have the time to make sure live prey doesn't damage their snakes but not the time to thaw some rodents in warm water??? I would think thawing out rodents (which involves no active participation, just time.) and leaving each in with each snake would be less time, and safer than live. And having a snake refuse a meal, then recycling the rat through the system might work but I sure wouldn't want to share the infection potential. If they are recycling live rats why not wash the F/T and reheat it and offer it to the next snake?
I agree with offering F/T, then Fresh killed , then live in that order and have rarely had to go with live with any of my snakes at any time BPs and others.
My point? You can argue back and forth which is cheaper or easier or anything and you can make it sound fine either way. The first time one of your animals gets bite and has an infection and needs vet care you might change your mind about the ease of live. Same with different substrates. What gets ingested, what works for what. It is gonna depend on your experiences and prioritys.
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Sonya

>Big breeders have the time to make sure live prey doesn't >damage their snakes but not the time to thaw some rodents in >warm water???

Please be so kind as to let us all know when one of those explodes on you...if this is how you are thawing them out, it is only a matter of time! Something about the integrity of even slightly decomposing rodent skin after freezing and soaking in warm water...

>>>Big breeders have the time to make sure live prey doesn't >damage their snakes but not the time to thaw some rodents in >warm water???
>>
>>Please be so kind as to let us all know when one of those explodes on you...if this is how you are thawing them out, it is only a matter of time! Something about the integrity of even slightly decomposing rodent skin after freezing and soaking in warm water...

Well, it has been a few years and so far...no explosions. Of course I do freeze my own immediately after death, so no rotting and I don't cook them in hot water just thaw them in warm...so no reactions there. 'Sides, I have slaughtered animals all my life (cows, pigs, rabbits, goats, sheep, turkeys, chickens, fish etc, various wild ones for study skins in college and snake food rodents)and am not too concerned by 'exploding' rodents....though it makes for a nice Monty Python routine. And given the choice of exploding rodents or a bitten snake I will go with the explosion any day.
Seen snakes bitten as they swallowed and died, snakes bit through the sinus and had to have major surgery to repair their skull, scars are the least worry and not something I choose to make possible for my animals. Especially when every single animal I have had will scarf down F/T.....even the "he never at dead for me and I tried!" ones. Go fig.
Like leaving your pet birds flighted or letting your cat roam it is one of those pet owner choices you have to make for yourself.
And BTW any 'big' breeders I know feed F/T.
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Sonya

>And BTW any 'big' breeders I know feed F/T.

The Sutherlands do not, so now you cannot say this anymore.

It's not reverse logic at all. They go through, drop a live rat in each tub. Twenty minutes later, they go back and collect all the ones not eaten. Email them and ask what they do and why, I bet you'd be surprised.
-Cathy

Hmmm...well. like I said, my guy may be a bit unusual, but I have never had to do anything even remotely "special" to get him to eat FT. I put it in the cage, and he devours it! He eats a minimum of two full size mice or rat pups a week faithfully. I have certainly never received anything "decomposing" from my supplier, and would never go back if I did! I do thaw his food on top of his cage, under his heat lights, so he smells it as it is thawing. When it is warm and soft to the touch on BOTH sides, it is fully defrosted and ready to eat.

BTW, the rat pups I get from my supplier have a good set of teeth on them, and would be quite capable of biting. The teeth may not be fully formed, but they are slightly larger than mouse sized, and could easily do damage. Are you thinking of pinkies??

Wendy

>BTW, the rat pups I get from my supplier have a good set of >teeth on them, and would be quite capable of biting. The teeth >may not be fully formed, but they are slightly larger than >mouse sized, and could easily do damage. Are you thinking of >pinkies??

Nope, those teeth aren't quite "honed" for easy penetration...sure, the "gumming" thing would apply more to pinkies than pups. This is to say nothing of their underdeveloped jaw muscles at this age. Not that there's no danger there at all, just that I consider it to be negligable. I used to feed my animals F/T religiously, then started on the stunned ones when I began getting rodents from a partner of mine, who breeds them himself. After two years of live prey, I have absolutely no desire to go back to the constant struggle of thawing and enticing!

Guess the answer to the original question really must be "to each their own!" I have no desire whatsoever to deal with live rodents, and find FT's easy and convenient. You seem to find FT's to be the pain, and find it easier to deal with live. Haven't heard any supporters of FK's yet, but I'm sure they are out there as well.

Sorry ecb, don't know how much help we were, but at least you got to hear a variety of view points!

Actually U all were a LOT of help
I now know that many people are comfortable feeding their animals FT or Stunned live, but not a lot of LIVE, so I do not have to worry so much about getting 'mouseciccles'
and I did not know it was LESS expensive to get them killed and frozen

Thank you all very much

I also got my daughter her own log in, so she can ask her own Questions
Thanks again
ecb
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Elizabeth (ecb)

'Good Judgment Comes From Experience
but Experience Comes From Bad Judgment'

It is only cheaper if you get them by the busload. Less than 50-quantities are not much of a savings, if any.

>>It is only cheaper if you get them by the busload. Less than 50-quantities are not much of a savings, if any.

A Busload? I only had to buy when my own breeders couldn't keep up with baby snakes.....so I bought at a show, no shipping. But 25 cents each for pinks in a 50 count bag. 35 cents each for hopper mice in a 50 count bag. Yeah, there is a shipping and box from most over the internet if you aren't picking up at a show. But if you are buying vacuum sealed quality rodents they have a long freezer life. Or, if you don't have a ton of snakes buy a bunch in with some friends and split it....(It really helps if you have at least one friend with a vacuum sealer.
And wouldn't those 'big' breeders be buying by the 'busload' anyway? I know the breeders I know do.
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Sonya

Good point. Of course, the cost of feeding and housing your own "breeder feeders" is more favorable in the long-run.

Well said. I was just surious to see if you've ever had bad experiences feeding stunned prey?
-Cathy

Not with my BP, since he is such a vacuum cleaner and swallows anything immediately that looks even vaguely mouselike. I did have one bad experience a couple years ago with a picky young red-tail boa. The stunned prey woke up before she decided to eat it, and gave her a good bite on the nose before I could intervene. The resulting vet bills were enough to convince me that FT was my first choice, and luckily for me, my BP is happy with this!

Wendy

Not once. I've never left a snake with food long enough for it to be able to do any damage, so that probably helps. The only problem is what to do if the snake isn't hungry. A rat that's been thumped around won't make it long afterward. Luckily, I have Martha, who is an eating machine!

To go back to the question at hand if I may, if you are only going to be keeping one BP, I would try FT. It can't hurt to try. Sure, it may be a pain(i.e exploding guts, waiting for it to thaw, and getting your snake to gobble them up every week), but without a doubt, you never have to worry about a bite. Bottom line though, I would give the snake what he/she prefers. And if you are going to feed live, like I said,, be smart about it and don't leave it in overnight, so that you end up with a snake that looks like the horrendous one in the pic circulating around the web. I also applaud you for waiting to get a nice Captive Bred and Born in the USA Ball, because my recent experience with "trying" import babies has been touch and go. Your quote in your signature pretty much says it all.
-Cathy

please don't feed live mice! My friend thought he knew better awhile ago, and fed his ball a live one. It ended up biting into the snake, and though I tried to stop it and flick the mouse to stun it, the head was too tightly coiled in the snake's coils. It gave the snake a nasty scar tha actually bled. For this reason, I feed my ball python on thawed, prekilled mice. he still thinks he has to kill it, even going so far as to constrict around the mouse, which I move around in front of him to simulate liveliness.
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*~Ginevive~*

LOL! Mine does the same thing. I don't even have to move it around. I just put it in the cage, and the "mighty hunter" goes into action, squeezing that dead mouse like he is really accomplishing something!

Wendy

please be kind, I am new to Ball Pythons as pets

*chuckles* What did you do with them before you decided to make one a pet? j/k

BTW I prefer F/T b/c its cheap, convenient and my snakes are ready to eat F/T 24/7

peace,
Ian