Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm new to the board and am trying to read the subject headings so if this has been covered, I didn't see it...

I see Ms TTS (I think that's the initials, sorry if I'm wrong) and others talk about the need to handle the hot ones and if you can't handle them, then you shouldn't own one. Ok, I can understand that. But the "experience" is not something that is easy to get. Who, for example, would train someone how to handle a naja, a squamiger, or a rattler? All different and all are unique in the way they're handled. You can practice for 20 years on a rattler, but it does you no good the first time you try to work with an elapid. And working with colubrids to get used to a hot one isn't any better. So where does one get the experience needed to handle these snakes correctly? I'm talking hands-on experience, not a video, but hey, a video is better than going at it blindly.

Don’t believe every thing you read. I’d wager a big chunk these people telling you you need to put in such and such hours getting tutored on venomous handling before getting your first venomous snake probably didn’t do any of that themselves. Truth is that most people keeping venomous successfully did not hang out with a mentor or watch videos or go to classes to learn how to do it. They learnt how to handle SNAKES. Spend enough time out in the wild catching nonvenomous snakes and you will pick up on when and how they bite. Catch all kinds and keep all kinds. Handle ‘em. Clean out their cages and feed ‘em. Get some snake handling tools and use ‘em on your snake whenever you can. Learn the feel and tendencies of snakes on hooks. Remember when you get bit and what you did to to cause it. After a good while of this you should have some SNAKE WITS. Then get a venomous snake. I can’t believe all the people telling you you need some type of professional training or something before keeping venomous snakes. If you can get it then good. But I’m here to tell you that most people that keep these animals did not do that before going venomous. If they had any balls they’d fess up.

Signed J.C. Evans
If you want to experience a “hot” go chomp a habenero. The word is VENOMOUS.

I have never trained under any kind of mentor. I do think that it may have been a good idea to work under a mentor when I was first starting out. I learned to work with venomous by getting to know snakes in general like the back of my hand. Knowing snakes in general and having years of herp experience under your belt is the best way to start. When you start to feel comfortable with some of the more difficult and nasty specimens then you may be ready to take on a more mild hot such as a copperhead or eyelash viper.

When I first started there was no one to teach me the ropes (as it were). I learned on my own. I was lucky enough to only recieve minor bites. Perhaps that is one reason I never felt "easy" enough to keep cobras and mambas in my personal collection (bad enough at work).

Forget the "Balls" BS. "Snake sense" has it's value, but also it's limits. Macho is a sure way to find yourself on the way to the hospital. It is safer to learn under a mentor and a legal requirement in my and MrsTT's state (Florida).

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Well... I certainly don't have any balls. Guess I'll just have to live with that.
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"The serpent crams itself with animal life that is often warm and vibrant, to prolong an existence in which we detect no joy and no emotion. It reveals the depth to which evolution can sink when it takes the downward path and strips animals to the irreducible minimum able to perpetuate a predatory life in its naked horror."
Alexander Skutch

No balls here either, unless you count all the frozen ones stacked up for king cobra food. LOL

Seriously, I do believe that there is significant value in taking the time to learn under a mentor, preferably via the professional route. Volunteering in a zoo and learning their safety protocols for the reptile room is one of the most important things you can do in my opinion, even if you think their safety protocols are overly strict. A lot of self-taught people are very casual about handling, and that can definitely lead to more bites than if you stick to a more professional type approach with strict safety rules that you make yourself follow just as if you were working in a zoo when you are with your own collection. You can always modify them to make more sense for your own facility, but it is my belief that you should have some type of well thought out and preferably written down safety protocol. Your protocol should include clear plans for medical management of a bite; just showing up at the hospital will land you into a world of trouble because the doctors are likely to know even less than you do about managing exotic envenomation.

I have to say that I've met some self taught people who have never made any effort to observe or learn from others, and they tend to be the ones missing fingers. Bites do not have to be part of your learning process if you choose to go about it more scientifically than casually. I think it is worth taking some time and effort to do some real studying with experienced teachers before undertaking handling on your own.

The safety tools that are currently on the market do make it possible for relatively inexperienced people to move venomous snakes around with very little risk. A nice well padded pair of Gentle Giant tongs lined with foam and grip shelf liner or rug runner material and a short course on tong safety will do just fine if all you are doing is moving snakes around. Other tools like trap boxes can help the less experienced keeper minimize their risks. However these skills are not enough if you are keeping venomous snakes full time. Eventually one of your animals is going to get sick or hurt, or at least need a deworming or maybe some help shedding, and it will require restraint for veterinary care.

Picking up a wild caught snake and keeping it without deparasitizing the animal is asking for trouble, and inexperienced keepers post here periodically saying, "Gee, why isn't my wild caught rattlesnake eating in captivity, and why is it wasting away and dying?" The combination of internal parasites and the stress of adjusting to captivity is probably a large part of the answer, along with inadequate husbandry. If you don't know how to gently and humanely restrain the animal to administer drugs and assisted feeding, it's not a great idea to take wild snakes into captivity.

Theoretically a less experienced keeper could buy a healthy captive born animal that would be less likely to need any kind of hands-on care and stick to moving it around with tongs and trap boxes. But even CB animals are not immune to problems that will require hands-on care. Some folks seem to think I'm an extremist for stating that being able to give veterinary care should be a requirement of any pet ownership, but even if a vet will not see your animals, there is quite a bit you can (and should) learn to do at home before you commit to caring for a venomous snake.

While learning from a pro certainly doesn't guarantee you'll never be bitten, just as learning on your own doesn't guarantee you will, finding a mentor (not always easy) and handling with them is BY FAR the smartest and safest route, IMO.
Sincerely,
Bill Huseth

This is a valid question because they all have their own unique tendencies. I think the primary reason for sound training under the tutelage of a professional or highly respected hobbyist who keeps venomous, is to learn the proper procedures for handling, maintaining and feeding these animals. The bottom line is that you cannot afford a single mistake with a venomous snake. Some people, irregardless of knowledge, maturity or whatever shouldn't keep venomous snakes because they are prone to getting bitten by non venomous snakes. It takes someone of a very high caliber (and that includes MANY, MANY things; not just age) to responsibly work with venomous. I had several great mentors who showed me the ropes. When we acquire a venomous snake that I don't have previous experience with, I talk to the experts to try and identify any of these animal's tendencies (but always realzing that every snake is an individual).

Our wildlife center is struggling on the issue of possibly offering training programs involving venomous snakes. First, it is illegal to keep them as a private individual in Illiois but our workshops could be offered to zookeepers, nature center naturalists and possibly private individuals who live in states where keeping venomous herps is legal (with the appropriate documentation of permits).

A friend of mine that I respect very much told me to tell someone who wants to keep venomous snakes: "are you willing to die just to keep a venomous snake?"....As I thought about this, it truly does open up your eyes. As I am a professional who is a curator of a wildlife center that features venomous herps, it is part of my job and as a husband and father, as much as I enjoy working with venomous, I don't think I would be willing to die just for the sake of keeping hot stuff (but I do, even though it is at my wildlife center...therein lies some of my struggles).

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm (IL)

First of all, I am extremely envious of your job Rob. Sounds like what most of us dream of doing....Second, if you ever do offer a course, please let me know and I'll be the first to sign up.

To start off, welcome to "the board."

I can only speak of my own experience, so please understand that I am only presenting my own personal experiences.

I never had a mentor when I started out. Of course, back then, this hobby was very much underground and it was the extremely rare individual who was featured in the press, not for getting bitten, but just for keeping venomous snakes. Even then (30 years ago) those people who were known to keep venomous avoided letting unknown people into their collections to help and learn. Since then lawsuits have flown for almost anything; such as coffee being too hot and drunken captains spilling thousands of gallons of oil across the shores of several states. It is almost never the individual responsible who winds up paying for their own actions and thus venomous keepers have even more reason not to mentor people. We also (I guess "we" means Al Gore) have invented the Internet, making research and asking for help and advice MUCH easier than when I started out. It HAS NOT made the task of picking out good advice from bad much easier.
- All this said, I agree that if you are not ready to take on PERSONAL responsibility for the safe care of a venomous animal, then you shouldn't get one.
- I also don't believe in "starter venomous." Learning to keep a copperhead will not prepare you for the elapid that you really want and what happens to the copperhead that you didn't really want when you figure out that you don't need it and move on?
- I also don't believe that all snakes need to be medicated to survive captivity. Not everything needs to have its parasite load lessened. Consider the parasite load that you carry on a daily basis. Most every mammal and reptile has some sort of parasite load and manages to live a full life. Stress, however, can tip the balance and give those parasites an unexpectedly overwhelming opportunity to destroy their host, human or reptile. Reducing the stress by providing adequate caging with appropriate hide spots, temperature gradients, etc. will go a long way to helping ensure captive survival.
- Not all zoos will take on volunteers to work with their reptiles. Neither will every responsible keeper. In fact, I believe that it will be MUCH easier to find an irresponsible keeper to offer tutelage, even if only to show how macho their techniques are and to gain credence in "the community" because they are "helping."
- Would a video on handling help? Sure! Any research will help. Search for every bit of information on venomous keeping (in general) that you can get and about the specific snake you want to get as well. (MsTT's site on handling is one of the very best on the web today -http://www.kingsnake.com/snakegetters/demo/ ).
Good Luck and remember that no matter whose advice you decide to take, it will not be them being rushed to the hospital (or morgue) if you make a mistake. Be careful both for yourself and your venomous charge.
The opinions expressed herein are solely my own and do not reflect those of anyone otherwise affiliated with me ~ KHB
Karl H. Betz
PS Having read this over, I notice that I did not add that I started with the simultaneous capture of a gravid Northern Copperhead and an adult Canebrake Rattlesnake. Neither of these animals were ever medicated and both managed to live very healthy and long lives. After 28 years of not taking unneccessary chances, I still have all of my fingers and remain venomous-bite-free in spite of being self-taught. Cheers, KHB

Personally my ultimate snakes were all Vipers! Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Merely observing, Frank, that most of the folks that come here asking about starter snakes are either on their way to cobras or mambas.
You and I have even seen people here recommend Gaboons as good starters!
Those of us who keep only indigenous venomous barely qualify to be spoken to civily anymore. I used to think Eastern Diamondbacks and Canebrakes were among the animals that commanded respect in the world. Nowadays they just seem to be "starters" in the rush to get the coolest pet in the neighborhood.
Oh well, enough of my winter-driven cynicism.
Karl

Hey Karl,
Longtime my freind. How are you and the little lady doing? Any chance of seeing you in SC much later on in the year?

As for EDBs and canebrakes, anybody who knocks them need shut their mouths!!! Those 2 sp are by far the most respected hots in the US, IMHO and anyone who thinks they cant hang with other vipers or even most elapids needs to have their head checked! Hell, the only crotalid which can top them IMHO are Bothrops asper (and those buggers can hang with dendroaspis!!!). To witness the kill times for canebrakes or to feel the impact on the tongs when an adult EDB strikes is truly two of the most impresive things in all of herpeculture!!!!

On another note just thought I would let you know that the CCs have been courting like mad again! I have seen them locked up on several occasions and with some good luck I should produce more then one baby this year!!! I know you like the sp alot and although your situation does not permit exotics if you ever move to a state were they are ok you get dibs on a pair of babies. God the little worms remind me of a Tangerine Honduran milksnakes that hoods!!! In the words of the imortal Susan Hunter () "An Ode to the coolest elapid in the world"!. (second to Taipans that is)

Take care my freind.

Adios,
Jeremy G

Hey Karl,
Longtime my freind. How are you and the little lady doing? Any chance of seeing you in SC much later on in the year?

As for EDBs and canebrakes, anybody who knocks them need shut their mouths!!! Those 2 sp are by far the most respected hots in the US, IMHO and anyone who thinks they cant hang with other vipers or even most elapids needs to have their head checked! Hell, the only crotalid which can top them IMHO are Bothrops asper (and those buggers can hang with dendroaspis!!!). To witness the kill times for canebrakes or to feel the impact on the tongs when an adult EDB strikes is truly two of the most impresive things in all of herpeculture!!!!

On another note just thought I would let you know that the CCs have been courting like mad again! I have seen them locked up on several occasions and with some good luck I should produce more then one baby this year!!! I know you like the sp alot and although your situation does not permit exotics if you ever move to a state were they are ok you get dibs on a pair of babies. God the little worms remind me of a Tangerine Honduran milksnakes that hoods!!! In the words of the imortal Susan Hunter () "An Ode to the coolest elapid in the world"!. (second to Taipans that is)

Take care my freind.

Adios,
Jeremy G

I think it's not that you have to medicate every wild caught snake, it's that you need to be able to do so in case it's necessary. It's probably more likely to be necessary if your snake was shipped in from a different continent.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convient pocket size!

"I think it's not that you have to medicate every wild caught snake, it's that you need to be able to do so in case it's necessary."
One of the oddities of keeping venomous snakes is that just about anything that you would normally have a vet do to any other pet, you wind up having to do yourself. Why? Because the vast majority of vets do not work with venomous snakes - considering them too dangerous. So, that places most venomous keepers in the position of performing handling situations with their animals that the local vet has deemed "too dangerous". So, where does that put us? The average venomous keeper determining dosage per kilogram and injecting medicine? No wonder the backyard wonders believe that creating venomoids in the garage is within their capability!
"It's probably more likely to be necessary if your snake was shipped in from a different continent."
Also true. With all the captive-bred exotic animals showing up at more and more shows these days, I can't help but feel that anyone who decides to start out in the venomous world with a wild-caught import deserves what they get. Harsh I know. Sorry, it is just how I feel.
Any moron can cage an animal. Let me know how it is doing 3 years from now! (Not a response to you or anyone else - just an overall observation)
Karl

If I get my own microscope, I'll happily diagnose and treat my non-hots for internal parasites too. I really just haven't had good experiences with vets so far.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convient pocket size!