Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have three beardies in my classroom(2 female and 1 male) they are about 8 months old. They all started out about the same size, but the male is about 50% larger than the females now. On Thursday after I fed them I let them run around my classroom and the male went crazy bobbing his head the girls then followed with the bobbing. Today I did the same thing and the male started with the bobbing and then bit(grabbed with his mouth) the top of one of the girls head and got on top of her. She got away from him after a few seconds and left. He doesn't bob in their tank, only when I let him run around the class. One other question, how big should the females be? My girls aren't that big. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

That's classic mating ritual. Separate the male the females are too young to be bred.

Sean
Heart Mountain Herps

First of all males reach sexual maturity before females, Second a female should not be mated to a male until she is 18-24 months old. Otherwise it is like a 13 year old human (female) being mated. Physically possible but not recomended. Males will try to mate at an early age but should be kept separate from the females.

in development of all species, for their survival, they do mature early. Life was short then for all, humans were able to procreate at age 9-12 and they did as life ended in the 20's and was the only way to ensure survival of that species, but at a great cost also. 30 was an old age, worn out teeth and bodies from the task of living. Today with advancements in care not only humans but all animals can life longer and better, but still mature sexually long before we now know they are able to best support and deal with that function.

This would be a good education tool for your students if they are old enough to understand. Separating the dragons and explaining to them why and that it is for their own well being and future to let the females grow to adults before taking away the very things they need to help reach a healthy maturity by supporting being gravid.

Many of us wish that others had learned that lesson earilier in their life, but to some, if they are able to breed they take advantage of that and prey on them.... I think of them as the pedophiles of the reptile world
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www.reptilerooms.com

Females need to be large enough to breed safely. Even a 3 year old that is underweight or undersize should not be allowed to breed.
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

I agree as well....while to my knowledge there hasn't been a study done specifically with bearded dragons regarding breeding at sexual maturity rather than age.....common sense tells us from other species that their have been studies done on that breeding at sexual maturity rather than full grown adulthood(after an animal stops growing), that there are many more poor outcomes and residual side effects.......

Some will say it's a function of size not age, but some 10 year old girls are able to have babies but should they and what would be the consequences? And also, where did they come up with the size required....some say as long as they are over 300 grams it's ok....why is 300 or 400 grams for that matter the golden number and how do they know. Zoos and facilities who are trying to preserve species will also tell you to wait for full maturity of animals for the best outcomes for the breeders and the offspring.

Many of us believe, first you let them fully mature and grow, make sure they are free of parasites, eating well, of good weight related to there size before allowing them to breed....then some of us even go a bit further, trying to preserve the size of the breed, so we only breed dragons if they attained a certain adult size and weight, the last of course is a personal preference only.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

In my opinion breeding a dragon because she fits into a size and weight requirement just does not make sense. In my experience the body shape changes big time from 8 months to say 18 months and adult. Their bodies are much more suited to be gravid, and producing larger and healthier clutches. No dragon at say 7-10 months should ever be put with a male and be expected to mate, and come out of it as strong and healthy as a full grown adult would no matter how many supplements you give her. These are just a few pictures of a dragon that some people would breed cause she fits their minds breeding requirements the 8-10 month 300-350 grams, and 18 inch requirements they set for their dragons compared to an adult dragon 18 months and fully grown allowed to reach her maximum size before breeding. A picture is worth a thousand words, and the thought of breeding young cause they fit your requirements is just bordering on abuse, and greed in my opinion. Just like the many puppy mills of today.



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Mystical Dragons webshots pictures
Mystical-Dragons Website

The smaller female you have their has very cool markings and colors. Nice work. I want one

Thanks BigFil. Actually she is a dragon I received early August of 2003, and is hypomelanistic Pastel. I asked Reiko in California to go pick her out for me from a large number of pastel dragons, and little Reaya was the one, and sent to me here in NJ. She's doing great so far, already over 17 inches and 300 grams, but has some time/growing to go before next season. Maybe next season she will be bred if that is in her future at all. We'll see how she turns out, but it looks good with the way she has been eating and growing, and her overall good health. Thanks, and I'm glad you like her. She has a wonderful personality, and is quite the character too
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Mystical Dragons webshots pictures
Mystical-Dragons Website

n/p
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www.classylizard.com

>>I have three beardies in my classroom(2 female and 1 male) they are about 8 months old. They all started out about the same size, but the male is about 50% larger than the females now. On Thursday after I fed them I let them run around my classroom and the male went crazy bobbing his head the girls then followed with the bobbing. Today I did the same thing and the male started with the bobbing and then bit(grabbed with his mouth) the top of one of the girls head and got on top of her. She got away from him after a few seconds and left. He doesn't bob in their tank, only when I let him run around the class. One other question, how big should the females be? My girls aren't that big. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Your on the right track by asking how big the females should be. When breeding BD's weight and size of the female is going to be the factor to determine when to breed and not age. What you need to do is get a hold of a gram scale and weigh the females. I can't tell you exactly how much they should weigh, as I have always eyeballed what I consider a good size, but 300 to 350 grams has been mentioned on this forum.
If the group was raised together and they are socialized you can leave the male in with them(if they are a good breeding size). You need to make sure that they are all eating well and are supplemented well. Breeding females need extra calcium and d3. What supps. are you using and how often?What are you feeding and how often?
good luck
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

I am going to agree that they need to be separated for two reasons.
First, you say that the male is 50% bigger than the females. He is going to be sexually mature and active sooner than they should be ready for. Also with this type of size difference, stress is involved. If they are separated it will take out the dominant male and give the girls a chance to catch up. You definitely do not want them breeding with this size difference and he will be able to dominate them.
I also agree that 8 months is too young for the girls to breed. I know there has been a lot of controversy on this forum lately about breeding age. I truly believe, as is the case with most species, that maturity is more than just size. I always wait until bearded dragon females are 18 months or older before letting them breed, no matter how fast they grow.
My 2 cents.
Dana

Just kiddin.!!
I have no problem speaking what I believe to be in the best interest of the beardie.
Call it old fashioned, uninformed, flame me, whatever...(pssst, I don't care).
I still believe in UVB instead of trusting only suppliments, and that a juvie dragon needs it's calcium to grow to maturity itself, rather then give it up to producing eggs.
What I don't understand is, What is the friggin hurry in producing hatchlings from a juvie dragon?
The only reason I can think of that a person would purposely do this is because of $$$ (granted, there are mistakes), which in my eyes puts those people even with puppy mills, and as Cheri said, reptile world Pedophiles (Good one Cheri!!).
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www.classylizard.com

I agree with you on all accounts.

I just hope the teacher originally posting does not take all of this as directed toward him/her. S/he came looking for help and I'm sure many of the comments here are residual discussion (and frustration) from the past few days. I am sure s/he was not intentionally trying to breed them.

Dana

No, I hope she doesn't see it that way either, and can also wade through the points that the majority of the people agree on. Majority Rules.
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www.classylizard.com

THough I haven't bred my female dragon before, or any dragon for that matter, I wouldn't do it unless she was at least a year old, just to be on the safe side. Sure they can be bred and have healthy fertile clutches before 12 months of age, but why put all that stress on the female when it is not necessary. 6 months more isn't that long to wait.

I agree you should separate the male from the females for several reasons. One, the females are young for breeding, Two, with the male being so large, he could stress the females by trying to mate them and eating up most of the food. Excessive stress on the females can lead to other health problems. Finally, with two females bred this will mean preparing an incubator for the eggs, extra suppliments for the female, housing for 10-30 (per clutch) of babies for anywhere between 1-6 clutches PER female. That quickly amounts to alot of space, money and time to take care of 20-180 or more babies. Crickets alone could cost $50 a week or more to feed that many, much less all the suppliments, greens, cages, lights, etc to raise baby dragons from egg to about 2 months of age or longer, depending on how long it takes to find homes for all these babies.

I will also prepare to have that one female who you saw the male grasp and mount, turn out gravid. Though they may have been together only a few seconds, it typically doesn't take that long. You should know between 2-4 weeks if she does produce eggs from that mating, whether fertile or not.

That's definately not a good thing...
Though I suppose certain parties would argue that too..
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www.classylizard.com