Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The boas in the photo are all Boa c. imperator. These animals are cb last year and were selected as keepers.

The black boa is from Sonora/Mexico (average size about 5 ft)
the brown one is from Costa Rica (average size a little less than 6 ft) and the light one (she will become pastel colored) is from Colombia (average size 7 - 8 ft).

Now take a look at these different looking boas and tell me that breeding the same subspecies from different localities to one another is not crossbreeding (cite: "It happens in the nature all the time and blah blah blah..."
Believe me: This DOESN'T HAPPEN IN THE WILD

I hope that this photo is convincing that one should not do it.

Boa constrictor

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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I love that Colombian example! very nice!

I do not know if this is where you were going and if not sorry to use your picture as my soap box but, you have gotten across what I have wanted to say for a while with that great picture. It truly does not just happen in the wild. In my own opinion, I just hate to see crossbreeding. I do not even care for it being done “responsibly” if there is such a thing. Some of you have produced some very beautifully snakes but I wont buy any and don’t encourage others to either. Hopefully we will not run into the situation that the Hogg Island Boa has run into with other rarer breeds. Remember this is MY opinion. Thanks
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Jeff
0.1 Wife
1.2 Kenyan Sand Boas
1.1 Smooth-Scaled Sand Boas
0.1 Doberman
1.0 Pitbull
1.0 Collie

Hermann I totally agree. Most people here of course don't, but there you go...

I must say, that picture could provide the argument for 1000 novels! Excellent job on making a strong (and very VALID) point in just a few "real" words.

Oh, beautiful animals by the way!

Jonathan Brady

...possibly breed in the wild as it is geographically impossible. Unless of course the Costa Rican boa travels 350 miles SE into Colombia. But the statement about the boas being different color and different size does not make the arguement that they should not be "cross-bred" in captivity. What if those 3 beautiful boas in your picture were all from the same locale? Last time I checked all boas do not "look" the same or grow to the same size. I agree that aniamls from the same location may ot have such a drastic difference as those in your animals, but there ARE differences.

These snakes do not see man-made lines on a map when living out their lives in the wild. Surinam, Guyana, and Colombia all border Brazil on the north. Colombia also borders Peru on the north. I just find it hard to accept that a boa from the southern part of Colombia is going to do scale and saddle counts on a potential mate from northern Peru before he/she decides on whether to breed or not.

The examples that Hermann used of course will not happen in the wild, but that does not mean it doesn't happen with other locality boas within OR outside if their own subspecies. Snakes do not read latin, the don't do scale counts and they are not map readers. The desert kingsnakes here in AZ do not care whether or not they are breeding with a mate from AZ or New Mexico just because Hwy. 666 devides them.

Just so that you know this my opinion, uneducated as it is. Derek
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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile
sonoranreptile@earthlink.net

If I had payed attention a bit better I wouldn't have had to post all of what I did below, and just added a bit here..

Later
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

I bet if you crossed all those boas together it would make an unbalievable bci.

I agree Herman, those examples would not be seen interbreeding in the wild. But I want to bring back an older point since this point you made does show a good representation of the differences.

This is not to start an arguement, but seeing how so many people cannot be trusted to truthfully represent the animals they sell/produce, and others do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the animals they are keeping are what they were lead to believe at time of acquisition, and also factoring in the diversity of each individual locality animal, why is it important to maintain a perceived locality "pure" lineage? I know the representation factor of the natural occuring beauty is one of the main arguements, but as stated above within most bci locations you can find subgroups that represent accurately any number of other locality animals.

Just wanted to know your opinion on that..

Later
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

I can not completely agree with you. Surely there is a variety within local specific boas. But the divergence is within a small range. A sonoran boa will never look like a colombian one or a boa from Costa Rica (for instance). The general characteristics are immanent and can not be discussed away.
Intergrades only occur in regions where two subspecies adjourn (for instance colombia or Venezuela). And these boas look alike and are not products of totally different looking boas like for instance sonoras and colombians.
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Beware of Commies and Mutts!

I agree Herman, the example you use, a Sonoran and a Colombian would never be seen intermixing in the wild, and they both have a very distinct appearance from one another. But you will still see a mix of "pure" localities that show the appearance and characteristics of a multitude of other distinct localities.

But also you use an example in your response of a possible natural intermixing of Venezualan and Colombian boas. Wouldn't that make it totally within your ethical parameters to also believe that Peruvian and Brazilian bcc intermix? and also Guyanan and Venezualan? Colombian and Brazilian? Thus removing any real legitimate chance that a locality pure animal is an actual locality "pure" animal? The best example I can think of is this, what if you have a wc animal that you know for a fact is collected from Northern Brazil...And you want another so you get another wc North Brazil collected animal..What gives you the assurance they were both collected from the East...or both from the West? and on top of that what assures that they are not possibly surinameXbrazilian redtails? or Colombian bciXbrazilian bcc, or even worse then that one is a colombianXbrazilian and the other is a SurinamexBrazilian. I know alot of what ifs are in this question, but unless you field collected, and you did a dna analysis on the animals after collected, you can never actually know if what you have is what you have.

I am not trying to start an arguement, I am just trying to get a feel, and solid arguement from both sides so I can see clearly where you are coming from..

Thanks for your time, and I know you will have a good response.
Later Randy T.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

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Derek Roberts
Sonoran Reptile
sonoranreptile@earthlink.net

np
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

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Joemac

http://www.boaconstrictor.cjb.net

your new morph collection! i see a pastel, an anery and a hypo... working on a ghost project i see!!!

joking of course, beautiful animals herman!

sean
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recycle your pets

I am new to this hobby and have greatly enjoyed it so far..
I've mostly been a passive participant on this forum, learning and absorbing different opinions out there. But I wanted to share a few thoughts I was having. (and depending on the response I get from this post I may go back to being a passive participant..LOL?)

I appreciate the countless years of knowledge and experience that some of you have gained though keeping, studying and breeding these wonderful snakes. And I appreciate the efforts some of you, such as Hermann, put forth in helping us be aware of the importance of preserving accurate specimens of specific localities. I agree that cross breeding does have a significant and irreversible effect on these natural gene pools and populations and I agree that it is important to be aware of this, but I would also like to suggest that we keep an awareness about the bigger picture of keeping and breeding snakes in captivity.

Hermann, your picture of these three very different and very beautiful locales is wonderful. It suggests the incredible work that Mother Nature has done through natural selection and eons of time, but it also points out the work YOU did in choosing the specific individuals you used to breed and produce them. Not only that, but you chose which of the offspring (the "keepers" as you said) to use in your picture as representatives of these "natural localities."

The suggestion I would like to offer is that ANYONE who is breeding snakes in captivity is causing significant changes to these original gene pools. Your "keepers" may not even be the ones that would most readily survive and reproduce in the wild. The incredible high contrast patterns, bright colors and little or no speckling that we all love and breed for may not be the best traits if that snake needed to live in the wild and probably isn't the direction natural selection would take..

Even when we try to provide our captive snakes with ideal "naturalistic" environments, captive snakes are not subject to the same natural stressors that determine real natural selection, i.e, the forces that created these distinct locales in the first place.. A "peruvian" boa that is the result of several generations of captive breeding may not even survive if placed back in it's natural environment.. so is it fair to say it really is a "true peruvian boa?" It may look more similar to the original stock, but changes are happening none the less.

If someone is REALLY concerned about preserving these true populations, why not work towards placing permenant bans on exporting these snakes or at least towards preserving their natural environemnts. Maybe we could prevent what happened to the Hogg Island boas?? Let's let captive snakes be what they are.. captive snakes, some of which are closer in some ways to their natural descendants, but all of which are only getting more and more removed from the original wild populations. Unless anyone is taking their crossbreeds and placing them back into the wild population, I can't really see what damage we are doing to these populations?? I do own a cross, I have a suri cross albino. I also own a few hypo/salmons. I bought snakes very quickly when I first got this incredible addiction.. but as I have gained more perspective of the hobby, I have started to appreciate the truer locales and really am not sure of my final analysis on the whole cross breeding issue yet, but I feel we each have a right to our own opinions on this. If anyone is opposed to a certain genre of snake, by all means don't buy them, but I can't see why we have to make the issue a matter to herpetological morality (can I say that?).

IMHO, keeping and breeding snakes is really just another way that the human species has placed it's dominance over another species. regardless, I do believe that I love my snakes and try to take the best care to offer them a good home, but I have had many moments while observing them laying on newspaper inside their plastic enclosure next to the plastic waterbowl, that some aspect of their full and true beauty is missing. What if we woke up tomorrow with the "curse" of having true compassion and empathy for all species (and mutts as well)? We should be glad we are the humans and not the boas..

My only request is that everyone take good responsible care of the snakes they have, whether it is a representative of the latest morph/hypo or the truest locale. Somehow, to me, trying to moralize some specific aspect of keeping and breeding snakes in captivity is ultimately hipocritic at best (and I'm part of that then as well.)

just some of my own thoughts..

Patrick Metz

n/m

I hope you continue to be an active member on this forum

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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

thanks for the positive feedback.
I am going to have to spend more time on the forum just to avoid buying any more snakes from the classifieds..

I'm bound to have lots of questions this coming fall as I'm hoping to take my first real stab at breeding sometime around then. I was successful with my Rosy's last year but now I'm hoping to move up to bigger boas..
for females I have a Ronne pastel and a normal BCI that should be ready this fall... and most likely I'll be using my Ihle Salmon male with them (oh, and now I also have a nice black and white male BCI from Alex Smith!). I have pairs of Hoggs and Hondurans that also might be ready by this fall. down the road I'll hopefully be trying surinames and bolivians too... and my suri cross albino.. so many possibilities!!

Anyway it goes, I'll be having fun for sure!

Patrick

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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

You never experience life until you have kids..then you realize what you should have done rather then what you did do

very well said. I hope you don't just lurk in the future!! Besides having the best albino I've seen, you have put much thought into this and have put fourth some very valid points in a non-confrontational manner. I believe there is room and a NEED in this hobby for both points of view but not at the exclusion of one over the other. Thanks.

Thank you Patrick for your very well thought out reply. I am in agreement 100% with your comments and your words have enabled me to have a more full appreciation for the intergrades/crosses that I own myself, instead of possessing a sense of embarassment for owning and caring for my own few "mutts." Thanks again for your well stated comments and good luck with your future breeding efforts.

I have no problem with you designating the combination of the animals from these locals as crossbreeds.

What I find interesting is that your picture undermines your own point. Yes these animals would likely never breed together in the wild. Your picture however is NOT OF ANIMALS IN THE WILD. It is of animals captive bred in a totally unnatural environment and held back reflecting the breeders choice of traits that he or she percieves to be desirable out of the litters produced. These animals are not an accurate representation of the local specific animals as they are at least the second generation of human selection and will become less representative with each generation. The fact that you can put these animals together like this shows how unnatural a captive bred collection is. The local of these captive born snakes is the snake room where they are produced not Mexico etc. Since they share the same local, your snake room, is it still be crossbreeding if you breed them together?

Your picture is a tribute to the strides that have been made in captive breeding with a great looking group of animals. I understand and have always understood your point of view and respect it. However, for me your use of captive bred babies to make a point about what couldn't happen in the wild serves instead to show how unlike the wild captive breeding is and why I feel comfortable breeding morphs and cross breeds.

Bill Kirby

CROSS BREEDING BOAS IS NOT A SIN, BUT I DO AGREE WITH YOU AND THE MAJORITY OF YOUR POSTS. I GUESS IT'S JUST THE LOCALITY LOVER AND GERMAN IN ME. KEPP THEM COMING HERMAN, YOUR POSTS ARE SOME OF MY FAVORITE AND YOU TOO ARE ONE OF MY FAVORITES HERE ON THE BOA FORUM.

YOUR FRIEND AND FELLOW HERPER, BILL KAGEL