Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've seen 6 cases of eary breeding personally from those who sought me out.....4 accidental breedings....dragons out in common space and didn't know it would happen so quick and 2 because someone else told them they were big enough.....one dragon was only 275 grams but the other 5 were over your 300 gram rule. I was involved shortly after breeding in all 6 of these cases....females had good fat stores and were proportionate in weight to length, health and free of parasites. All but one had UVB, all were supplemented and fed properly and provided with appropriate nesting boxes. 2 became egg bound, a 400 grams girl and a 320 gram girl, 2 had clutches with less than a 50% hatch rate and many of the ones hatched died before 8 weeks, 2 clutches had calcium issues after hatching, 1 female had calcium absorption issues after laying(the one without UVB), 3 clutches had between a 70-80 percent hatch rate, one did have a 90 percent hatch rate but those babies were some of the ones with calcium issues. Slow growers and failure to thrives were about 20 percent of the ones who survived. 1 female never grew after laying....was 8 months 15 inches and 330 grams and at 18 months was the same size which is not usual at all.....even at 24 months when I checked back she had not grown.

Even in 18 month or older dragons husbandry can be an issue, so that's a moot point.....

I would welcome the info you your dragons, ages, weights, lengths of your breeders now and when the ages, lengths and weights when they were first bred, hatch rates, mortality rates, slow grower and failure to thrive rates of there offspring. And if any of them have passed, at what age.

As far as my stats....out of 954 eggs, 27 didn't hatch or under 3%, out of the 927 that hatched I lost 11 before 8 weeks, most of those by 4 weeks which is just over 1%......I've had 8 very slow growers (under 6 inches at 8 weeks) which I always keep until they catch up, but the did catch up in size by 14-15 months, 2 in less than 2 months, 1 in 3 months, 3 in 6 months and the others by 14-15 months.

None of my breeders has passed yet....my oldest female is 10.....weighs 600 grams and is 21 inches, was bred at 38 months the first time, had laid one clutch of infertiles the year before.....she bred last at 7 and is still producing one clutch of infertiles per year. I have 2 8 1/2 year old females, bred at 19 and 21 months, 500 and 400 grams each and 20 1/2 and 18 inches long....both bred last at 7 as well....produced one and two clutches of infertile eggs last year. I have 1 7 1/2 year old female, 550 grams and 19 inches, bred at 20 months.....this will be 1st year not bred. I won't go into the ones under that age, as their longevity is no where near established.

Oh for reference...

the oldest female was 17 inches and 400 grams at 6 months, 460 and 18 inches at 11 months and at 18 was 21 and 650(she lost a bit the last year or so)

the 8 1/2 year olds were 300 and 322 at 8 months and 16 and 17 1/2 inches long, and 350 and 400 and 17 inches and 19 1/2 at 15 months ....at 18 months they were 410 and 505 and 18 inches and 20 1/2 inches

the 7 1/2 year old was 374 at 7 months old and 16 1/2 inches long, 420 grams and 17 3/4 inches at 14 months 540 grams and 19 grams at 18 months old.....

so they all had quite a bit of growing to do over that time span
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

You keep some great records.
And facts are facts aren't they?
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www.classylizard.com

n/p
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

those are some amazing details you kept

Thanks.....Most breeders keep detailed records, it's a very important part of any breeding program.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Great record Tracey. I was wondering why you posted it again, and then I looked down and noticed that the debate from earlier had been pulled off. ???? I wonder why, I thought it was very informative.

Sean
Heart Mountain Herps

a lot of informative threads "disappear"

I believe because of the thread line it was in....they have to delete all or nothing......but I'm not positive.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Hi Tracey. I would like to complement you on your record keeping. Few know the true importance of it. As far as breeding records and experience. I have several.

My first was a female who was one year old, 18 inches and 450 grams. She acted like she was digging for a week or so and when placed in her nesting cage immediatley layed 14 infertile eggs. This was my friends female who did not have a male so she did fine after laying and didn't seem stressed.

Second was one of mine. A female who was 13 months old, 16 inches, 370 grams. I kept her with a male who was young but very large for his age. One day in 2002 I came home and found that he was bobbing and nipping at her. Not knowing he could breed, I left it thinking he was just learning how at only 5.5 months old (17 inches, 320 grams). Over the course of one month he slowed his attempts and she became gravid. She did very well, layed perfectly and recovered very well. She did however have a small clutch, only 13 in the first. That was the only clutch she layed that year.

Third was a female who I intentionally bred. She was 15 months old, 17 inches and 400 grams even. The male was very large, 22 inches and 621 grams. She was cooled for 2 months and placed with a new male I had purchased and quarentined for 2 months. He was cleared of parasites and he mated with her on the spot. It took her a very long time to lay, about 7 weeks from copulation. She laid 2 eggs on the soil even though she had a good nest enclosure. She then laid 20 eggs 1 week later. She did not eat all after laying and died 2 weeks after. The necropsy showed that she had two parasite blockages from worms that didn't show up in the males' fecal examination. Internal bleeding led to liver failure. She was actually producing a second clutch when she died.

Last is a very recent breeding. The female is 15 months old and 22.5 inches, 587 grams. The male is 10 months old, 20 inches, 486 grams. She was cooled for only 4 weeks. I tried the introductory breeding technique to keep them seperate because of the males' aggresive breeding behavior. This worked well. The male mated twice in the first 2 weeks. She became gravid and took 34 days from copulation to laying. She had an enormous first clutch of 36 eggs. She did fine after laying, eating well, bred again with the boy but got 5 copulations this time. Only 29 days after those copulations she laid a massive 42 eggs in her second clutch. This was a surprise. She again did well eating and keeping good weight. She did not allow the male to mate after the second clutch, however is gravid again and should be laying here in the next few days. I am hoping that she stops breeding after this because she does have reduced weight but nothing serious. Still has good fat stores behind her arms.

These are what I have experienced so far. I am going to have a few more pairs going in about 2 months. I hope my info added to anything you needed. Any way I can help!

Phil
Halo's Exotics

Thanks for the info...I would like to know the females weights and lengths at 18 months or older....the hatch rates, hatchling mortality rate.....other than the one who laid infertiles at one year.....since she was not induced to laying by breeding then the data would be skewed....of course your recent breeding you may not have all the data yet of the hatchlings.....

And the one that died, did you get a fecal done on her prior to mating her?

Thanks so much for the info.....do you mind if I add it to my journals?
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Yes I did get a fecal on the female before she bred. It came up clean. As far as hatch rates goes, here they are:

For the female who laid 13 eggs, all but one hatched, the only one that died failed after 3 weeks of incubation. The babies hatched at 54 days incubation at 83 F. They all did very well and shed at 2 weeks of age. I still have one female from that breeding and she is very large for her age, 21 inches and 500 grams at 10 months old.

The one who had parasites and held the clutch for a long time had a poor hatch rate. Only 14 out of the 20 hatched though all were fertile. A few of the babies has deformities like only being born with half their tail. Another had a kinked tail but no calcium problems. They were incubated the same as the above babies, but I just think it was a bad cross combined with parasite problems.

I don't have any babies from my most recent yet, the first clutch is going to hatch in about 2 weeks or so. I will let you know though.

Yes feel free to use it in your journals.
Just note that they are my animals if you would.

Thanks

Phil
Halo's Exotics

Thanks again.....have copy and pasted your info so I can record it in my journal under your name....

One last request.....the second female.....how old is she now? And how much did she weigh and how long at 18 months, or how big now if you don't have that data. I'm looking for long term outcome as well on early breeders.

The female breeding now....please update me on her size w/l when she hits 18 months....I know she's fairly close now.....

Thanks bunches.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Oh yeah sure. Here is that info.

The second female was 19 inches and 520 grams at 18 months, she hit a growth spurt after laying. She is doing very well now, she is about to go into her next breeding season. She is now 19.5 inches and a huge 615 grams. Just so you know her cross, she is a Sandfire from Dragons Den Herp. She was purchased by somone else about 2 years ago and I got her at 8 months.

The new female is about 17 months, I will let you know through email her stats when I take the monthly stats. She is now at the same length, 22.5 inches, but has lost weight from breeding, only 560 grams. But that is ok. She is doing well. As a litte note on her, when she layed her second clutch, she punctured several eggs so only 35 are incubating compared to 44. Not sure how she did that but she did.

By the way Tracey, this is the same Phil from back when, you know on Beardy Haven and all?

Phil
Halo's Exotics

I wondered if that was you.....nice chatting with you.....keep me posted on those eggs.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Phil...now that I think about it...didn't you have a couple of young gravid females die in 2002 as well? If so, would like their ages and sizes as well.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Oh yes, those two died from overheating. I found the records for them. Here they are.

One of them was 20 months old and 18 inches 430 grams. She was about 2 weeks from laying when they overheated.

The other was at 17 months and 19 inches 420 grams. She was just becoming noticably gravid when they overheated.

As a note, two other dragons were in the same cage, one other female (not gravid) and the male. I think the fact that they were gravid aided in their demise.

Phil
Halo's Exotics

Thanks Phil...will ad it to my records.....take care.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Good records and statistic Stacey, I can see that you have raised some nice size healthy dragons. I commend you for knowing that having them reach maturity in all ways, you have given them a good future and the babies a great start in life.

The lenght of life some already are experiencing says a lot!

It is nice to see someone back up their advice (not that you had to or I ever doubted you) with statistic and information, and not afraid to share that with others, unlike some others that have questionable advice and never seem to have anything to show for it themselves

Good luck
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www.reptilerooms.com

n/p
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Very good records you keep there, quite impressive. I admitedly do not keep the best records, especially once the babies start coming, as I get absorbed in their care. I had 4 breeding females last year, two were full grown adults and 2 were first time breeders. The two first time breeders have grown significantly from the last clutch laid to now. I wish now I had owned a gram scale. This will be my 3rd season being back into breeding dragons. In addition to those 4 females, I have 7 more that will breed at different times this year. Of those seven I plan to provide all the info you suggested above for 3 of them. It will be available through my website when it is up and through updates on this forum(with pics).

I'm sorry to hear about the 6 cases you mentioned above. Again, these problems have never happened in my experience, and I can't imagine why the people involved in those cases had problems. I still can't figure out what I'm doing differently.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

I look forward to your data....I will journal it also if you allow me to....and thankyou for the compliment about my record keeping, though I'm only one of many that do the same....

Do you still have any of the females you bred several years ago...if not what happened to them, sold etc and when and can you find out at what ages they are now or if they are in reptile heaven at what age they went.

The most important data is the long term stuff on the mothers as I'm trying to show that it can be deterimental to breed them before attaining full growth, but of course the other data is supporting as well.

Thanks for your input and I look forward to more of it.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

I had a group of 2.5 that I traded in 97'. They were all between 3-4 years old, and that is about all the info I could offer on them. Unfortunately, as far as my animals are concerned it might be a few years before seeing the possibilty of any long term effects. This is not a concern for me as I don't believe it to be the case. Maybe some day you can prove me wrong, and possibly my data might even help you.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

Oh well...we were posting at the same time....too bad you don't have the proof as you would have some decent data with 5 females that would be in the 10-11 year old range now if surviving. Too bad you can't contact the person to which you sold them and find out how they are......it would be of benefit to everyone, either way it came out.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Just a quick comment from a breeding last season. Bred a female that was about 10 months old and about 350 grams. She laid 2 clutches of 22 eggs each. All the eggs hatched and all the babies did well. The eggs that she laid were huge, the size of eggs from other females that were ready to hatch the day they were laid. After she laid her last clutch she continued to grow and now weighs in at 560 grams and is ready to be bred again.

Imagine that! It can't be, must be some anomaly. I wonder how this will effect her lifespan, now that you bred her early.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

Bill...you are always so blatant....you really should try to be more subtle.....lol......one dragon does not make a study.....no one said their weren't exceptions to anything....but supply me some longterm data....since you bred several years ago, what happened to those females? Since you provide proper husbandry the majority of them should still be alive and well and of good weight if early breeding had no affect on them.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

people that care anyway....
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www.classylizard.com

Thanks for your input.....I wish you had some older adult females that were bred early....can't seem to find data on them.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Even though longevity doesn't seem to be a concern for some. Am I confused or are people missing the whole point?
Isn't that the main focus, along with overall health? If breeding too early is a detriment to the longevity of the female?

Seems to me, you are the only one that has beardies old enough to even begin to make assumptions.

IMO, a beardie that was bred at a young age surely would live to 2-3 yrs as stated, probably 5-6 yrs, but the question is, did they live a full life span of 10-13 yrs.

Were their bones thick and strong as they should be, or were they made weaker by producing eggs when the calcium should have been building bone in a juvie dragon?

As said, I would expect a juvie to live through it, but having a dragon that is a couple years old that has produced eggs at a young age doesn't really prove anythng, unless a bone density test has been given.
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www.classylizard.com

Well....I know there are others out there with older dragons.....hopefully some will come forward.....my oldest didn't breed until over 3 so I don't know if that has skewed my results at all....I had not intended on breeding when I got her.....I still have one of her son's from the first clutch, first hatched and 1 daughter from the next years breeding who is the 7 1/2 year old and 1 daughter who's 5 and a one from her last breeding 3 years ago.

Or if you bred your dragons before 18 months and they passed on....please let us know at what age and any other details you have......nothing we share here is a study but a proponderance of evidence is good enough for most.......
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

I'll tell you what, I will have a bone density test done on one of the females I'm going to make records available for this season. I will do it at the end of the season so presumably she will have poor bone density if some of the assumptions made on this forum are correct.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

...that would be great....though that's only one of the possible complications or poor outcomes we are speaking of.....why don't you post pics of the dragons....with weights/lengths and ages before becoming gravid, while gravid and after laying as well/clutch sizes too.....and how about at least one that's only 8 months old that's over 300 grams.....and try to find out what happened to your other breeders from 97 since we are looking at long term effects and shortened lifespan as well.....you want to help, jump right in, will be glad to have your input. Also for the best mortality record info you need to keep them all til at least 8 weeks.....as though it declines some after 6 weeks, it's still fairly high.....size l/w at hatching and size l/w at 8 weeks would be great info also....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

No problem to the other requests, but trying to find out about my 2.5 from 97' is not going to happen.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

n/p
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

maybe one of the other breeders you speak about has some date to support normal longevity in early bred dragons....since you don't mention names, you'll have to ask.....if you'd like to pass on the names....I'll be glad to.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

It will be interesting to find out if it has the same, less then normal, or poor density. No one said it will be poor, that's the whole purpose, we need to find out if the assumptions are true that it leaches calcium to breed young.
I wonder also, if a dragon can recover from MBD, can it regain bone density?
If it's being supplimented, I would not expect it to be poor density, but I would expect a difference other then normal..

Can't wait to find out..
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www.classylizard.com

"No one said it will be poor, that's the whole purpose, we need to find out if the assumptions are true that it leaches calcium to breed young."

I really want to see the results also, but in the case of just one or a few animals, how you interpret the results is just still perspective and speculation. The result will hold no statistical value. If the dragon does have less than normal bone density, you might view the cause as young breeding. I might view it as something that I did wrong in my husbandry. So what I mean, we can't be quick to make conclusions a bout a result when we are talking about a handful of animals. Reminds me of a "study" someone did with mvb's and some non-thriving dragons. There were alot of variables to consider, but the conclusion was that the uvb in the bulbs were the contributing factor that turned these dragons around. I don't for on second think that what I plan to do with a few of my females this year will prove anything...but at least I will have some data to present to the jury.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

of a healthy, hearty beardie population in the US and everywhere. If you don't believe your data would prove anything....though adding data to a collection of data always increases statistical value....then why do any of it....since you admit you're not a record keeper anyway. Try to find others who breed in larger quantities than you do that have data regarding longevity, hatch rates, egg bindings etc....you talk of those who believe as you do so get them involved....or get 5-10 small breeders like yourself to collect data........

Please don't knock others research or studies when you do none yourself and don't even keep breeding records....there are no perfect studies even with good controls.....but they do aid in contributing to our knowledge whether perfect or not....

In Cheri's support....I did a study of my own on the benefits of UVB which I'm posting below.....my findings show that it is beneficial to the animals, even if not perfect the data is strong enough to know that:

I took 3 clutches of beardies from 3 different sets of parents and divided them into 3 groups.

Group one had incandescent light bulbs for heat and regular florescent bulbs

Group two had incandescent light bulbs for heat and Reptisun 5.0 bulbs

Group three had T-Rex MVB’s – 100 watt flood

They were all supplemented one feeding per day with calcium …they were given parazap for 5 days during weeks 3 and 8…all fed the same foods and the same number of feedings…all tanks were brightly lit…no natural sunlight exposure during the study…. the study was for 8 weeks. They ranged from 3.75 inches at hatching to 4.75… they were divided into groups with varying sizes to end results would be more fair.

All beardies remained active and ate well during the study with no signs of MBD. At the end of the study their lengths were as follows.

Group one – clutch one – 5 beardies
Average length 7.25 inches…range 6.5 – 8.5

Group one – clutch two – 6 beardies
Average length 7.5 inches…range 6.75 – 9.0

Group one – clutch three – 6 beardies
Average length 7.75 inches…range 6.75 – 9.25

Group two – clutch one – 6 beardies
Average length 7.5 inches…range 6.75 – 9.0

Group two – clutch two – 5 beardies
Average length 7.75 inches…range 7.25 – 9.5

Group two – clutch three – 6 beardies
Average length 8.25 inches…range 7.25 – 10.25

Group three – clutch one – 6 beardies
Average length 8.5 inches…. range 7.25 – 10.0

Group three – clutch two – 6 beardies
Average length 9.0 inches…range 7.75 – 10.75

Group three – clutch three – 5 beardies
Average length 9.5 inches…range 8.0 – 11.25

My own conclusions from the study are that UVB is beneficial to my beardies especially in the stronger outputs, though it well may not be necessary in the short term. I’m not sure about the long term my self as I have not done any long-term study myself.

I also wanted to add that 2 dragons of the 3 clutches were not included in the study......as it would not have had even numbers.....they were raised like group 2 with the exception of having natural sunlight exposure .... they were average size for the clutches at hatching and that's why they were held out so as not to skew by being the smallest or the largest. They had size similar to their siblings in group three at the end of the study. Again, I did this study for my own knowledge and certainly don't suggest that's it scientific or exact but showed me what I needed to know about the potential benefits of UVB exposure.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

...and accelerated growth of the first 8 weeks of a CB dragons life beneficial in what way? Could there be a negative impact?
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

you mean optimal, more natural growth rate like with sun exposure? As nature intended.....what's your arguement again?
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

No argument, just questions...with no answers, just more questions...
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

I'll repeat myself....guess you didn't read the response well....

you mean optimal, more natural growth rate like with sun exposure? As nature intended.....what's your arguement again?

As far as being deterimental....I don't think you'll find anyone saying UVB in deterimental as it's as nature intended....so my question to you is how could a more natural growth rate from UVB exposure be deterimental?
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Bill, your jumping pretty high there, even for you!

Perhaps the 14-15 inch adults are natural?? funny, that are not that way in the wild

Maybe Tracey harmed her long lived females by providing UVB and breeding at a mature age? Yet were are yours?

Whats your argument?
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www.reptilerooms.com

too funny.....they have gigantis syndrome and fountain on youth syndrome from UVB.....I guess I like those "side effects" myself.....

Bill....I've given you my proof of health and longevity in my dragons.....you can't even do the same, you sold your small group after breeding for 3 years and just started again last year....so you have no proof even that your methods are even as good as mine, not saying they aren't but you don't have proof of your own, studies or others with longterm proof backing you up.....I've been nothing but polite and including you in the gathering of info so we could put this debate to rest, you've been saracastic at every turn.......final word.....put up or shut up.....I'm tired of your rudeness and sarcasm to those of us who are out for the dragons...we can't do anything about what you do with yours, but we can try to stop others from taking opinions based on nothing but personal feelings about the matter. You make fun of our studies and records, what's up with that? If you don't like our methods or studies, do your own and show us the results, we'd all be more than willing to look at them and I bet not one of us would say "your so called study" .... we would welcome any honest input to the betterment of the care of dragons.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

I will be putting up and I certainly won't be shutting up. I am not doing it for your benefit or anyone else who has been as vocal as you in this thread. I will be providing my info for others that are following this thread and have questions of thier own like me. The ones who are tired of hearing the same regurgitated info about how they "should" be raising and breeding thier dragons from the same people. I'm not the one that starts with the sarcasm in these threads, as it has been pointed out in a couple posts, but I won't sit back and take it either. Like I said before I'm not arguing, I just have qustions. Do you really think that wild born dragons show those kinds of growth rates? I don't know, maybe. I will have to try your study and see if I get the same results. If you email me, I can tell you a breeder that has done a similar study as you without the same results, I sent you a message through KS, but I guess you did not get it. They might be able to also provide you with longevity records.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance." - Maynard James Keenan

funny that that breeder isn't stepping forward and posting it for the benefit of those like you who don't want to listen to our "regurgitated retoric".........

I never said I didn't use sarcasm....I said that's all you do along with insults about records and studies so read the post again.

I'm glad you're finally going to do something instead of sit there and make fun of others who actually do take the time to record and do studies no matter how lame they are in your eyes.....

I don't know it all, no one does, it's a learning curve, but some things are just common sense, at 40 I've found that in most areas of my life, my animals are all long lived, so I know I'm doing something right.....so figive me for trying to help others that want the same things I do.

It's perfectly fine for anyone here to disagree with me, show me some data....I am open minded....I have changed several things over the years that I thought I never would.

And for those like you, that breed early to get the hatchlings sooner, and therefore support your projects, go ahead, no one said it was a crime, we just said show us data that says it's not harmful before telling people that have them as pets and want to try out breeding something that you really don't know is ok, you're just assuming it is with no longevity proof.

It's also funny you speak of others everytime a debate comes up with these issues.....I'm sure you have your supporters....so do I but I don't feel the need to mention them unsolicited like you do, cause I never said no one agreed with you........I take full responsibility for my statements, whether any one else agrees with me or not. I don't do this for anyone but because of my own principals....I certainly wouldn't think you'd do a study for me or anyone else, you should be doing it for yourself.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

I hadn't intended on making scientific fact from one dragon.
No one has ever checked bone density that I'm aware of, or stated that they have, under the conditions you provide.
One dragon and one test won't really prove anything, but surely will be of interest to everyone.
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www.classylizard.com

One of the big problems I see you have people that have animals as pets, animals they care about and want to have a good long life with them and then you have people that have animals for their reproductive value and the gain to themselves.

They both have different agenda's for the future of their animals, and I do not think you are ever going to get one to admit that their way is not the best, because for each it is... the best for the animal on one hand....and the same for the other, the best for the owner's expectations for that animal.

The only reason to breed a immature dragon is to get offspring to sell a year earlier, there is no other reason, no matter what they try to tell themselves or us.

I think this thread already shows something, those guys breeding juvies and subadutls have none over a few years old... they die, sell them off after a few years breeding {and don't seem to know what became of them) or are new to breeding and only have them afew years old.

I know three larger breeder that were amoung the first in the country breeding and selling bearded dragons... all have gone out of the business, and two of those advocated breeding under a year, but rare was it they had a female over 3-4 years old, because they were exhausted from producing young and they sold them or retired them. I have a few from those breeders, and would not dream of breeding them, they are tired, worn out and have earned their rest.

Some reader may find it interesting to go back to the old archives here and read them, you see several guys talking about this same thing and arguing that they breed them early, they take place over a few years time and most had excellent husbandry adive to give to others, a few even admit they know it was hard on the dragons now...... but you will also notice that none of those men are still around breeding them now.

They are not going to come on here and admit they had many females egg bound or decline to the point of dying following being gravid to early or too often, or collopsed fat pads or even that the last cluches they breed at 4-5 years old more where dying than surviving. So I don't know how you could gather those statistic. They seem big on telling others when they are doing it and arguing their point ....... for a few years anyway, then disappear.

As I said before, the only reason to breed a immature dragon is to get offspring to sell a year earlier... period. Money is the primary modivator to some. I still think it significant that it is only men we see here advocating that and men that do not have any history of females dragons with an endurance quality that were subjected to that.

Maybe we don't see them....... because they do not exist?
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www.reptilerooms.com

Cheri, don't think that i don't respect your views in many cases, but I think that you should ease back on the whole man bashing issue. It comes off on the other end of a computer like you have a problem with men in general. I'm sure there are just as many male (human) breeders that keep records as do not. Same thing that with female (human) breeders i'm sure there are plenty that breed early and don't keep records. I understand you arguing your point but I don't think it needs to be brought down to that level. It looks like instigation at this point and this thread will valuable info will probably be terminated at this point. Who knows maybe that's the reason for doing it.

It has nothing to do with male bashing, some of my favorite people on here and breeder are males. It does have a lot to do with the roles that the different sexes play in society I think.

Women are traditionally the physical caretaker of family, they care for the their family and others, concern for well being falls primarily to them. Healing when sick, raising young and they are the ones that others turn to for sympanthy when needed. Even in profession, there are more females in the caretaker or service role than there are men. And they have a longer history of doing that role better. Women no matter how modernized are more sensitive to anothers feelings and sometime will give more than they should to help others

Men are providers, they make sure their are the funds or supplies to take care of the family, their role is primarily one of monetary or supplies to care for the family, many times having to put feelings aside to be able to do that role.

I think that does carry over to this conversation, its not men bashing, its a fact, not just here but on every list or forum I have ever been on or seen. The same thing come up in horse breeding or dog breeding, both of which I have done for many years.

They are not sexist remarks, that's life. I did not intend to bash men in general, but you can not deny here or other list this same conversation goes on, its females that oppose it with the same statements, and males that advocate it, ingnoring their reasons why, even thought its common knowledge in almost all species.... we're suppose to believe that bearded dragons, dogs, horse... whatever the argument is over, is an exception to that rule. Sorry if that offends anyone or someone takes it personal, its been seen many times in the same mode
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www.reptilerooms.com

Mother nature is not fitting well into her role as a "better" female caretaker, by allowing two consenting BD's to do their thing.

do you mean in captivity or in the wild?
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Both

cuz it was a light hearted question/statement meant to lighten things up a little.

Just for the record, if i had any intentions of breeding which I do not, I would wait till both male and female are done growing.

Who know's they're addicting little animals? And hatchlings are so cute......you might get hooked into the breeding thing....lol......
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

LOL....not with the two males I have right now! Plus with these two we've managed to rack up close to 400 bucks in vet bills in the last two months (ouch). I couldn't even imagine the cost of vet bills, food bills, not to mention feeding myself. I have another passion in life that the dragons need to share my single income with, snowboarding. Funny thing is my snowboard goggles are made by none other than Dragon optics.

lol....well, you've got restraint which is good where money is concerned....I haven't snowboarded in quite a long time....though I used to enjoy down hill skiing and snowboarding so I understand where you are coming from....now I support my son's motocross habit as well.....activity is good and healthy so keep it up and enjoy yourself along the way!
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

A minor can not consent, thats why they have caretakers over them

Hopefully, those caretakers watch out for the best interest of them and not allow them to be harmed. Even if mother nature gives them the ability of something
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www.reptilerooms.com

Something to keep in mind is that in the wild, females can run away or keep their distance from males. In an enclosure in someone's house, they cannot get away and can get pinned by a male pretty easily. It does not always look very consentual, LOL.
Dana

n/p
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

I recently sold several females to people (kids & adults) that wanted a female so they could be part of the cycle of life. They thought it would be interesting to experience the breeding process and then raise up babies. Not for the money but just for the experience. Unfortunately in the world we live in, many people are looking for instant gratification. They want it and that means now, whatever the price. This is also a disposable society. We have talked about that and I think we are both on the same page there. So impatience is an issue as well. Look at the people who dont take care of themselves, live fast-die young. Why should they treat their pets any different.

JMO
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com