Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Now we're getting somewhere. As strongly as you feel about the negative impact of wildcaught on the wild populations, you finally admit it as an opinion. Although I myself feel that the negative effects of wildcaught is often overstated, I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing as long as they don't state it as an absolute. I will say that if you destroy habitat to find herps, that is bad for the wild populations, which is something that does happen. I did it when I was alot less experienced. I also don't discount that some captive breeders do feel they are doing alot more good than they really are. I do believe that most of us realize that we are doing this for our own enjoyment, and will freely admit it.
As far as our hobby having a darkside, the majority of us realize that. It's discussed every time I get together with my herping buddies. We all know someone who keeps everything they find, and sub standard operating pet stores, and yes, it's bad. However HSUS is playing it up, as well as adding their own blatant lies. That is what we need to defend against.
As far as captive breeding having no positive impact on the wild, we are going to have to agree to disagree. As long as you state that as fact people aren't going to take you as seriousely as you want them to. I will say you don't have facts to back it up. Yes, there are laws against releasing CB in some states, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be beneficial. I guess you could say you have facts to back it up if you believe everything you read. As far as release project being successful there is probably no hard proof, but there is also no hard proof it didn't work. Once again do researchers agree on all points?
No one is saying that a snake in a cage is benefitting the wild. Yes. Offspring would have to be released. You do admit that if the milksnake project was a success, that CB could offer some potenial benefit to the wild. Doesn't that make your so called fact somewhat of an uncertainty?
By the way everything I've posted is opinion. To state otherwize would be arrogant. Once again how about a real name. A first name will be fine
Later.
Alan,

I don't know how this ended up on top. responce to re: WOW...

I last posted on this thread Jan. 30th...It's still going on?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hi Frank,
Yes it is. Can you believe it?

Alan,

The key fact I keep coming back to over and over again, is that in order to even have the ability to say you have a positive impact on a wild population by captive breeding, individuals from the captive breeding program have to find their way back to the wild population, and I do not know of a single program that involves breeding by private persons, but I am willing to concede a few rare exceptions to the rule may exist that I am not aware of, but herpers use this as their justification for breeding everything from bearded dragons to womas, and womas have been wiped out largely by poaching. Zoos, aquariums and educational institutions, have done successful captive release programs (e.g. Houston toad, condor, white rhino, golden lion monkey, sun bear, Galapagos tortoise, marine iguana, etc.), but there are no examples that I am aware of where captive breeding by private persons resulted in the legal release into the wild of private CB stock in the last 10-15 years. There were some really embarrassing efforts many years ago that have left allot of Gov’t types with burnt fingers, and the disease problems with the black-footed ferret, and Cal desert tortoise has really closed a lot of doors, and have left some wondering if CB programs in zoos should even be allowed.

Yes, I know Frank, it seems like I am making a mountain out of a molehill here, but every time a Gov’t type hears a herper use the feel good term “captive breeding for conservation,” they roll their eyes, and all your credibility goes right out the window. The number one excuse, bar none, given by poachers who get busted with wildlife is that they were doing it “to conserve the species by captive propagation.” If the herp community wants to be taken seriously, it has got to look at things from a larger perspective, it has got to distinguish itself from the illicit trade in wildlife, it has got to police its own ranks, and it has got to get its facts straight before we (and I mean we because I am part of the community too) are going to be taken seriously and given the opportunity to actually participate in any real conservation programs. In short, my molehill is the first step toward creditability for the herp community, and having creditability is the only way to go where most herpers seem to want to get.

Man, if we had an organized program to even reduce WC herps in the market place, and folks started jumping on the loudmouths that say things like “I know better that those Gov’t types,” or “they can pry my lizard out of my cold dead hands” we would be half way to our goals, but for some reason, the herp community likes to hang on to the caviler cowboy attitude that the Gov’t types will never respond favorably to. Just one man’s opinion who works with a lot of Gov’t types, and is real tired of defending herpers that won’t stand up and defend themselves.

I’ll tell you this though, being on this forum has really helped me vent some of my frustrations, I just hope people will some day stop looking at me as the enemy (cause if I was, why would I bother risking my job to participate on this forum?), and learn something from what I am saying. I’m going to be retiring in a few years, and there is no one to take my place, so if you think things are bad now…just wait! PETA is getting stronger and more influential all the time. At the current rate, we’ll all be “reptile guardians” of a select list of about 10 species of reptile within 10 years if people don’t wake-up. It is like I keep saying, “it is time to shape up or ship out, and their ain’t a boat leaving!

And Alan, my friends call me Bubba so the handle is only partly a joke. I’m not giving more than that because I’ve already been called on the carpet for what I’ve said thus far (Big Brother really is watching), but the boss has to prove it is me before he can really do anything about it, and frankly, I am more concerned about a law suit than I am loosing my job, so Bubba will have to do.

Take it easy!

Big Brother

Hi Bubba,
I've had quite a collection of nicknames myself. Maybe we can share notes on that sometime. As far as everything else, cool!
Later.
Alan,