Reptile & Amphibian Forums

While I think the notion that the absence of a feedback loop to what Big Brother describes as a "closed system" is irrelevant (I'll explain why below), I have a proposal to provide that loop, if for no other reason than to try to "think outside the box" and come up with creative solutions that enable the herpetoculture community to work WITH, not in apparent opposition to, folks in the wildlife conservation camp (which, incidentally, does not necessarily mean "hands off wild populations" ).

Wild herp populations are NOT a "closed system." If they were, then we couldn't take any specimens out. That pedantic argument aside, we must realize that for some populations, the limited take of some number of specimens is in fact sustainable no matter how bad we feel about that fact on a personal level.

The unfortunate (on the larger scale) truth is that many predators of some species of herp are nonexistent in some populations anymore, again due to mankind's influence--reduced numbers of "varmints" like raccoons and possums, and even raptors, to name a few. In the absence of these predators, many reptile species will overproduce offspring (i.e. more than the given habitat can sustain), under the assumption that they evolved to counter the presence of those now-extirpated predators. The limited take of specimens in those cases can therefore be sustained--simply put, the top predator is now man rather than a redtail hawk. Notice I'm qualifying my comments with "limited" take--I am against the unfettered collection of as many snakes as can be grabbed by as many people possible.

But I digress. The provision of a "feedback loop" whose absence has been earlier lamented is a simple one: introduce a "cooperative breeder" permit for native species. Think rosy boas are on the decline? (not necessarily) Commercially breed them: give back 10% of the offspring to the state natural resources department, who will then administer their reintroduction into areas under hunting pressure.

What about introduction of parasites into wild populations?
It is in a commercial breeder's best interest to ensure his or her breeding stock is in top condition. I submit that someone who is in it for profit will in most cases have a higher hygienic standard than a hobbyist herp keeper. Of course, since the commercial breeder will have registered with the state (to obtain the permit in the first place), the information would be on-hand to visit the premises for periodic inspections to ensure compliance with applicable guidelines. Impact on existing populations: low to none.

What about disrupting the local gene pool?
Commercial breeders are increasingly focused on "locale specific" herps (example: alterna), and as such keep meticulous records pertaining to such information. Bloodlines are kept as pure as possible for these animals. Therefore, locale-specific animals could be reintroduced to their, uh, specific locale. Impact on existing populations: low to none.

Who's gonna pay for it?
This could be a little more complicated. I propose offering the commercial breeder cooperative breeding permit at significantly reduced cost (compared to the hundreds of dollars some states charge). Again, the point of the program is to make it more lucrative (for those driven by the bottom line) to sell captive-bred than wild-caught. The sheer number of herpetoculturists willing to participate in the program will more than make up for revenue lost in reducing permit fees. Also, the 10% returned specimens to the guvmint would not necessarily all have to be "repatriated;" the excess could be sold to provide an additional revenue stream for this program and/or other herp conservation efforts.

As always, I solicit constructive feedback (i.e. "I don't think it will work because..." or "good idea, but it needs _____ to make it work" to stimulate further discussion). I'm trying to be a glass-is-half-full kinda guy rather than just turning down any unorthodox idea because I don't think it'll work. I'd much rather see herpetoculturists work WITH the "other guys" and reduce the "dark side of the hobby"--can you imagine the positive benefit the press alone could provide? Let alone the numbers of successful reintroductions of herps possible.

I am also a cynic, though, and I realize that there is money and power to be had in keeping herpetoculturists and entities such as law enforcement in adversarial positions--money and power on BOTH sides. So yes, someone is going to lose out if this proposal were to move forward, but I don't think it's going to be the herps!

Chris
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris,

Many predators of reptiles have FLOURISHED because of people. Racoons are a prime example - they live quite well in close proximity to humans and can wipe out local turtle populations in a very short time. Coyotes are now found in places they wouldn't have existed 100 years ago - the first coyote sighting in Prince George's County, MD, happened about a decade ago, if memory serves correct, and the east coast individuals are reportedly bigger than thier western bretheren.

The overabundance of deer - an ironic result of increased human development - on the east coast of the United States likely has an indirect negative affect on reptiles as well.

As for disease transmission to native populations, one isn't just worried about parasites. What about viruses? Mycoplasma? New viruses are turning up in North American box turtle populations. It's already expensive to test for the known bacteria and viruses, and what about the ones that we can't test for?

How do you classify a "professional" breeder? A breeder can also be a wholesaler/importer, and not all of those facilities are careful in quarantine and isolation.

All of what you recommended would be extremely expensive.

I think the ony way you would sell something like this to wildlife authorities is if you made it profitable for them. Show them how they can make the money from permits.

Still, I wouldn't mind LIMITED collection of wild reptiles, I just don't want the lay public to buy a wild-caught Russian tortoise for $50. I think only breeders - those with long-standing experienc with reptiles or a specific species that are interested in expanding the understanding of a species and/or producing captive generations - should be buying wild-caught reptiles.

Katrina

>>Many predators of reptiles have FLOURISHED because of people.

True. Others have not. My examples weren't the best. Feral cats are near the top of the list!

>>As for disease transmission to native populations, one isn't just worried about parasites. What about viruses? Mycoplasma?

Sure, those too.

New viruses are turning up in North American box turtle populations.

Attributable to release of captives, or naturally occurring and just being discovered?

>>How do you classify a "professional" breeder?

Someone who sells captive-bred herps for money.

A breeder can also be a wholesaler/importer, and not all of those facilities are careful in quarantine and isolation.

Then they couldn't participate--that's why the inspection would be a part of the process.

>>All of what you recommended would be extremely expensive.

Perhaps.

>>I think the ony way you would sell something like this to wildlife authorities is if you made it profitable for them. Show them how they can make the money from permits.

I disagree (LOTS of govt programs are notorious for operating at a loss), but did provide for that through both the collection of permit fees (I had even considering making the permits free as an enticement for breeder participation), and through possible sale of excess individuals (reptiles, not government workers!).

How is the release of California condors profitable for wildlife authorities, other than in intangible ways, like good PR?

>>Still, I wouldn't mind LIMITED collection of wild reptiles,

Neither do I.

I think only breeders - those with long-standing experienc with reptiles or a specific species that are interested in expanding the understanding of a species and/or producing captive generations - should be buying wild-caught reptiles.

I go one step further and say NOBODY should buy wild-caught (native animals). However, feel free to travel to their home range, pay the license fee, and collect your own possession limit.
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris,

The majority of herp breeders are casual hobbyists who breed a few reptiles for fun and sometimes profit. In most cases, these herps come from long lines of captive bred stock. In kingsnake.com's colubrid, leopard gecko, bearded dragon, boa and ball python classifies, the vast majority of the animals being offered for sale are captive bred. Such animals should not be regulated.

Those who breed birds, fish and insects for a hobby are generally not pestered (or busted) by U.S. federal and state wildlife officials for pursuing their interests.

While there are still types of amphibians, turtles and lizards that are not widely captive bred, simply having a fishing license to allow the collection of no more than four adult animals would solve the issue for the people who want to work with such animals.

I can tell you from a breeder's standpoint that the vast majority of people looking for a snake seek out captive bred animals because they know that they are more suitable as pets and potential breeders. I can also tell you that I do not want to be hassled by the government for pursuing my hobby, which does no damage whatsoever to wild populations of herps.

I think most other herp breeders have the same point of view.

Tim

In kingsnake.com's colubrid, leopard gecko, bearded dragon, boa and ball python classifies, the vast majority of the animals being offered for sale are captive bred. Such animals should not be regulated.

I agree, and suppose I should clarify by stating I'm coming from a US-breeding-US-native perspective.

>>Those who breed birds, fish and insects for a hobby are generally not pestered (or busted) by U.S. federal and state wildlife officials for pursuing their interests.

I don't follow those branches of husbandry, but I know that the occasional "sting" happens on the herp side--maybe because snakes are more villified than the others?

>>While there are still types of amphibians, turtles and lizards that are not widely captive bred, simply having a fishing license to allow the collection of no more than four adult animals would solve the issue for the people who want to work with such animals.

Yes, except the offspring produced must be disposed of, else a knock comes on the door and it's discovered you know have 10 specimens vs. the 4 allowed (after all, the fish-n-game guy can't distinguish WC from CB).

>>I can tell you from a breeder's standpoint that the vast majority of people looking for a snake seek out captive bred animals because they know that they are more suitable as pets and potential breeders.

I agree, as well they should! That being said, all my animals I currently have are WC--either by me personally, or were given to me (none purchased).

I can also tell you that I do not want to be hassled by the government for pursuing my hobby,

Me neither.

which does no damage whatsoever to wild populations of herps.

Maybe your area of concentration does not, and I believe mine would do no measurable harm either, but I'm trying to placate those who would disagree.

Thanks for the response!
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris, Katrina and Tim,

You guys are great! And especially you Chris for taking a look at things from my perspective on this one!!! I really appreciate that. I’m not going to give you guys the usual spiel this time, cause you all know what I would say anyway, but forgive me for just sticking in a couple of small points here

First, don’t make the mistake of comparing reptiles to mammals, because reptiles are much more important to ecosystems than mammals are. Why, basically it all comes down to metabolic and trophic efficiency. About 90-95% of the energy (food) a mammal takes in is used for its metabolism (i.e. maintaining the body temperature within the narrow range its enzymes are most efficient in), which only leaves about 5-10% of its energy intake for growth and reproduction. Further, the more rapid metabolism of mammals reduces the efficiency of energy “extraction,” so mammals can only extract about 25-30% of the energy produced by the next level down in the “food chain,” and this is generally measured in biomass or carbon cycling in the ecosystem. Reptiles, on the other hand, do not need to maintain a narrow range of body temperature for their enzymes to function efficiently and they use an external heat source (i.e. ectotherm), so about 90% of the energy they take in can be used for growth and reproduction, and when coupled with their slower metabolism, reptiles are much more efficient at extracting energy from the next trophic level down in the “food chain” (on the order of say 40-60%, but the exact amount is a bit tough to pin down for a variety of reasons that are beyond our needs here). Thus, 100 lbs of mice can be turned into 36-54 lbs of snake or it can be turned into 0.5-1 lb of say coyote, so which group of animals do you think has greater biomass in the ecosystem? And which group of animals do you think is more important in terms of carbon cycling in the ecosystem? If it wasn’t for the changes in physical structure of the habitat caused by mammals, they would be completely irrelevant to the functioning of most ecosystems. Further, reptiles can occupy niches in the ecosystem that mammals simply cannot even come close to occupying. Can you imagine a long skinny mammal? The surface to volume ratio alone would be so great the “snammal” would loose body heat so fast it would have to suck down sugar water at twice the rate of a humming bird just to stay alive!

The gene frequency in a population is the result of the selective pressure placed on the population by the environment where that population resides at that time. Breeding an animal in captivity (under different selective forces than those that are found in the wild) will alter the gene frequencies after one generation even if you started with the exact same gene frequencies as the wild population (this is where Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium and Mendelian genetics that you love so much comes in Chris and yes, it has been proven experimentally), so if you re-release individuals into the wild from captive breeding individuals from the exact same population as the parent stock came from, you will still alter the naturally occurring gene frequencies. Your best chance of success with such a program would be to re-introduce individuals into reclaimed habitat where the original populations were extirpated, for whatever reason, but the habitat remains or can be reclaimed. This also helps to eliminate the potential introduction of exotic diseases to the natural population, assuming the new population is a great distance away and thus isolated by distance and unsuitable habitat (this is what worked out so well with the wolf reintroduction, for example).

And just because I can’t keep my mouth shut… commercial breeders will offer the greatest risk of exotic disease and parasite spread due to the variety of animals they are exposed to. Ideally, the best breeder would be the person that only breeds the endangered species, which would minimize the potential disease/parasite transition. Further, the non-commercial breeder is your best bet for eliminating the perception of commercial exploitation, and it would make the permit/inspection process much easer to deal with.

Of course the biggest hurdle is trying to convince the Gov’t people with all the veto power that you herpers are serous about this, and not just trying to pull one over on the Goberment. In other words, your biggest fight is really against the poachers, smugglers and slimy animal dealers that give the herp community such a bad reputation! Until the herp community cleans house, your never going to be taken seriously. Just one man’s opinion, but I hear this sentiment all the time.

And I’m going to stop there… for now, because I’m too tempted keep right on going with about five more points and bore you all to tears =)

Again, this is a great exchange! And exactly what we need more of in this community!

Big Brother

>>First, don’t make the mistake of comparing reptiles to mammals,

OK, I won't. I didn't think I WAS!

Breeding an animal in captivity (under different selective forces than those that are found in the wild) will alter the gene frequencies after one generation even if you started with the exact same gene frequencies as the wild population (this is where Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium and Mendelian genetics that you love so much comes in Chris and yes, it has been proven experimentally), so if you re-release individuals into the wild from captive breeding individuals from the exact same population as the parent stock came from, you will still alter the naturally occurring gene frequencies.

No argument from me.

Your best chance of success with such a program would be to re-introduce individuals into reclaimed habitat where the original populations were extirpated, for whatever reason, but the habitat remains or can be reclaimed. This also helps to eliminate the potential introduction of exotic diseases to the natural population, assuming the new population is a great distance away and thus isolated by distance and unsuitable habitat

OK, let's make this part of the "deal" then.

(this is what worked out so well with the wolf reintroduction, for example).

I thought we weren't comparing reptiles to mammals!

>>And just because I can’t keep my mouth shut… commercial breeders will offer the greatest risk of exotic disease and parasite spread due to the variety of animals they are exposed to.

This is why facilities inspections would be important. A "commercial breeder" may be a breeder of only one species, not necessarily a "breeder/importer." I don't want to turn off the whole idea on that one point. Perhaps the proposal could be changed to allow the repatriation of animals from "single-species breeders" to help reduce the risk of disease.

Ideally, the best breeder would be the person that only breeds the endangered species, which would minimize the potential disease/parasite transition.

Ah, but there's the problem. Isn't possession of endangered species (in general terms) prohibited? On the other hand, what a great incentive for experienced breeders--to be permitted to try their hand at captive-breeding these species for repopulating historic range areas. If you want to take "exploitation" out of the loop for this one, fine--I think many people would be willing to take on such a project for the challenge and prestige it would represent. In addition, it'd be a "force multiplier" from the government's perspective--you could spread the risk out over many locations (reducing the chance of disease wiping out the entire captive stock) without requiring the government to fund the breeding facilities, utilities, food, maintenance, etc. The only thing for them to do would be the administration (managing the program and performing inspections of facilities and practices, which I would hope they'd be doing with their own operations anyway).

Further, the non-commercial breeder is your best bet for eliminating the perception of commercial exploitation, and it would make the permit/inspection process much easer to deal with.

I won't totally exclude this idea--but in this case, I'd make the permit free. There are lots of hobbyist breeders who like to breed animals for the sheer challenge/enjoyment of it; they're not looking to make money, but then again what do they do with surplus animals? Being LEGALLY authorized to release them under controlled conditions would be win-win.

Of course the biggest hurdle is trying to convince the Gov’t people with all the veto power that you herpers

YOU herpers? I thought you were one of US!
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

Chris,

You have a gift for pointing out the little ironies that make me smile (and I would put in one of those spinning smiley faces here if I could figure out how to do it, but since I can’t I’ll give you this link http://www.myshutter.com/flash/smiley-back.swf).

I thought about this a lot last night, and I was wondering if anyone has ever considered the falconers model! Falconers, unlike WE herpers, have conducted successful captive propagation programs of endangered (e.g. peregrine falcon) species for use by other falconers and for re-release into the wild. Granted birds do not suffer from the same kinds of localized genetic effects that herps are susceptible to, and they are endotherms so were comparing apples to lettuce here, but it is the only model for a successful program that I can think of that we can use as a pattern of sorts for our own CB program. Of course the biggest difference is that you have to be licensed to own a falcon of almost any kind, and in order to get that license you have to go through an apprenticeship where you must pass tests on your knowledge of the proper care of the animals and you must also pass inspections of your facilities and care on a regular basis making corruption very difficult (in other words the falconers have some credibility with the authorities, which I keep preaching for here). For more information check out the largest and I think the best organized of the falconry clubs, the California Hawking Club, at http://www.calhawkingclub.org/

Anyway, I just thought their model might provide food for thought for this discussion.

Big Brother

I think most people in the snake breeding hobby are not interested in release programs. They are hobbyists who wish to keep and breed snakes and sell them to other hobbyists and pet stores - without government interference.

As long as the animals are captive bred, who cares if they are native or not? A simple "bag limit" of 4 adult animals would be sufficient enough to insure someone is not selling mass quantities of native wild caught animals. An unlimited number of babies would also be part of the rule (baby snakes are not often found in nature, and their chances of surviving into adulthood in the wild are not great). All that would need to be required to own the set limit of native herps would be a fishing license.

As I have said before, hobbyists who breed birds, fish and insects are not hassled by the govenment for their interests. I believe a big part of the government's alleged interest in herp "conservation" (busting legitimate breeders) is because it is a way for them to make easy money and then issue press releases about what a great job they are doing saving "wildlife" that was never actually "wild".

Tim Spuckler

Tim,

This sounds good on the surface, but remember, baby snakes grow. What do you do with snakes you can’t give away or sell? (the problem out in Calif.) Where do you set the “baby” line? i.e. a 6” garter is a whole lot different than a 6” bull snake. In other words, you have to think about how the law will be practically enforced. An unenforceable law is just as useless as biologically stupid law, and there is always some give and take.

Second point involves your examples of people who breed fish and birds. In most states you are not allowed to breed native fish without a license, and pretty much all birds are protected under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act (i.e. at the Federal not the State level), so it is illegal to even possess native birds or the parts there of (i.e. a single feather) without a special permit or a hunting license for game species, and you really cannot bred them with the exception of falconers and game farmers who must have special permits. My point is this, you can breed almost any exotic herps you want as long as you can obtain the breeding stock legally without Gov’t interference (a few species that are deemed dangerous or harmful to the environment are excludes, but these are generally local laws), and the same applies to exotic fish and birds. With herps, there are many states where you can breed natives, and there are a few states where you can breed native fish, but there are no states where you can breed native birds without a special permit. In other words, herpers actually have fewer restrictions than bird and fish people do, so these are not good examples to use for your argument, and insects are pretty much ignored by everyone.

I hope this kinda makes you feel a little less picked on by the Gov’t!

Big Brother

BB,

Actually I feel quite "picked on by the government." I live in Ohio, and although I was not "busted" in the "sting" (I don't keep native Ohio herps and don't often attend the Columbus show), I feel a ruling that covers albinos and hybrids is just plain wrong. I think having to PIT tag reptiles with oversize tags, potentially killing them, is not conservation. I am not interested in having state and/or federal wildlife "authorites," - most who can't tell a black racer from an indigo snake - come over my house to do "inspections."

Yes, baby snakes grow, but most breeders sell them - that's the whole idea. If you do not have an outlet for baby snakes, then you shouldn't be breeding them (it's called "responsibility".

So much time, money and resources were spent spying on, videotaping, audiotaping and phone tapping Ohio breeders of color morphs of black rat snakes to achieve last year's "bust," it is quite evident that little time and resources were being spent stopping people in the field from catching native reptiles and sending them over to a state (or country) where they are legal; such people are the true "criminals."

Ohio's ruling takes any incentives whatsoever out of a casual hobbyists desire to keep and breed native herps. It is completely out of line with what other states are doing as well as being out of touch with the ODNR's alledged mission “...to protect and conserve native reptiles and amphibians while maintaining the educational and economic benefits derived from them.”

You bet I'm feeling "picked on by the government."

Tim

Tim,
First off, I picked Ohio at random, so I guess I picked a sore spot, sorry! I should have used Texas instead.

There are two questions you should ask yourself. First, why is this happening in Ohio and not else where? Bet you dollars to droughts there was a reason things have gotten so far out of hand on Ohio that sent people down this path. Second, what are you going to do about it? If you figure out the justification the authorities are really operating under (not what they tell the press, but what really motivates them) you will be able to effect change by addressing that issue with them. Then, listen. Don’t argue or try to tell them how stupid they are (i.e. can’t tell the difference between a rat snake and a kingsnake because that just makes people angry), because that doesn’t do any good. You have got to respond to their concerns first and gain credibility in order to be heard by them. It is a slow process, but complaining about it will only get you a doorknob in the backside as they close the door on you and your concerns. Remember, you’re a herper and as such a minority. Gov’t types only respond to the majority and to people who help them do their job, so your best bet for change is to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Big Brother

BB,

First of all, these people ARE stupid and cannot correctly identify native reptiles and amphibians. Denying it or trying to "sweep it under the carpet" does nothing to improve the situation. It you are going to protect something, you need to know what it is.

Why did Ohio do what they did? To get their names in the paper about their great "conservation" effort is my guess. This was nothing more than self-made media hype (although I do appluad them for catching some of the actual "bad guys" who were selling wild caught animals.)

There is need need for breeders of albino color morphs of black rat snakes to "gain credibility" for what they do. There is no need for government intervention on people who are keeping and breeding reptiles which obvious come from captive bred lineage ("native" or not).

Tim

Tim,
This is going to be a bit between the eyes…sorry!

Can you tell the difference between a bluegill and a crappie, a mallard drake and a pintail hen, a marmot and a woodchuck, and a Harris hawk and a Harrier on the wing? If not, then you’re stupid too, and by your own definition not qualified to protect wildlife either!

Have you ever witnessed a news worthy event, and then read about it in the newspaper later and then wondered if the reporter was actually there? And since when does the person who actually does the work for a political type actually get credit for doing the work? People climbing the ladder in any organization will always be the first to the microphone even if (and this is often the case) they have no idea what is actually going on.

If the guy that got busted selling wild caught animals had albino rat snakes in his collection, then human nature dictates there must be something wrong with breeding albino rat snakes to the guy who can’t tell the difference.

All of your anger, and .75 cents will get you a Coke out of a vending machine, but it won’t solve the problem. Believe me on this one, I drink Cokes all day long!

If you want to affect change you have got to suck it up, and give the guy the benefit of the doubt and TELL HIM “I do appluad them for catching some of the actual "bad guys" who were selling wild caught animals.” Then, and this is the hard part, listen to his concerns and problems. More often than not you will find the guys actually doing the work are just as frustrated as you are, but possibly for different reasons (though I’ll bet one of their frustrations is the loudmouth at the microphone that just turned their hard work into meaningless sound bites that have nothing to do with what actually occurred), so you need to find out what those reasons are, that way you can understand where the guy is coming from, and try to win him over to your side. Then, and only then, you can educate him, but educate in a positive way like you would an old family friend, and you will be amazed at the response you will get, especially if you also offer solutions to their problems at the same time. For example, find out what kind and size of PIT tags they want to use. There are a number of manufacturers out there and many of them have different sized tags. Personally, I like Trovan tags for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that they have a small tag that I have successfully used on chorus frogs with little to no mortality, and you can’t get critters much smaller than that to accept a tag. Further, Trovan has an information package available form some of the sales reps about different methods for implanting the tags in different animals. I rarely use the needle that comes with the tag to actually insert the tag in an effort to reduce the size of the opening in the skin remaining after tag insertion. I also generally use a “V” shaped cut in the skin to aid in closure and healing of the insertion point. Then present the information you just learned in the form of an acknowledgement of the problem followed by a question. “I know there are people out there who poach animals from the wild, so we need to be able to differentiate between wild and captive animals, but instead of using the AVID cattle PIT tags, can we use the Trovan pet tags that are half the size? The AVID reader will still read the Trovan tags, but the smaller tags will be a lot less painful for the animals during insertion and help reduce complications.” Then you will have their attention, because you just proved, without calling them idiots and alienating them that you are concerned about the problem and know more about the technology than they do, but you did it in a non-threatening manor that will earn you brownie points and credibility. Now you can ask if it is really necessary to PIT tag albino animals that would not survive in the wild, and thus must be from captive stock.

Send me some info on what PIT tags they intend to use, and I’ll be glad to give you some feedback on products and techniques to make the procedure better and safer for your application. I, given a week or so, could even come up with a bibliography of research papers that outline minimum animal sizes for various PIT tags, and the reported mortalities. Being able to give people copies of published papers always gives you credibility.

In other words, find ways to make friends with the guys trying to protect wildlife not enemies, and offer to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem, or learn to enjoy drinking a can of Coke all by yourself with no herps.

Again, sorry if this was a bit harsh. I in no way intended any offence to you, but you needed to hear yourself and the message you were sending from the other guy’s perspective.

Big Brother

BB,

Actually I CAN tell the difference between all those animals you have mentioned AND I know their latin names as well. I expect wildlife officials to be able to identify the animals they are trying to protect - IT'S THEIR JOB.

There is nothing wrong with breeding albino black rat snakes. We've been over this before. You previously agreed that such things should not be regulated. These people should not have had their homes raided, their names posted on the ODNR website, been taken to court and then fined.

Here in Ohio I belong to a group of people called NOAH (the Northern Ohio Association of Herpetologists). We worked with the ODNR to assist them in writing a ruling, attended meetings at the state capital and hosted reptile & amphibian identification seminars all ON OUR OWN TIME, with the good faith that a reasonable ruling would be issued (it wasn't).

In July of 2000 the organization wrote a letter stating their opposition to many facets of the ODNR ruling and offered suggestions on what could be done to make it more reasonable (you can read it at www.noahonline.net). We received a letter on July 31, 2000 from Carolyne Caldwell, author of this idiotic ruling, indicating that she would like to "begin discussing the rule and its implementation and enforcement with interested folks possibly as early as this winter..I believe we must continue to have meaningful dialog and a strong working relationship."

We have yet to hear back from her.

Here in Ohio, we went through great lengths to attain a positive relationship with wildlife authorities - and then were dealt a slap in the face. We are done "being nice" in the Buckeye State and unfortunately most of these cases will now have to be fought out in court by those who have the time and resources to do so. This of course will waste taxpayer's money which could have been spent on conservation.

Worse yet, the big egos and small brain of the ODNR have succeeded in positioning them as "bad guys" in the minds of most Ohio herpers. You will find very few people who don't think busting breeders for color morphs of black rats was nothing more than a pathetic attempt to increase the amount of people they could nail in their "sting" last year.

"In other words, find ways to make friends with the guys trying to protect wildlife not enemies, and offer to be part of the solution instead of part of the problem, "

Tried that BB - it didn't work!

Tim Spuckler

Tim,

All I can say is it sounds like you're doing the right thing! Just don't give up!!! It is like throwing mud against the wall, the more you throw, the greater the chances are something will stick. This is an up-hill battle, and a very frustrating one at that (trust me, I know!), but do you really have the money to fight it out in court, which will take years with no progress what so ever, and increase the divide between you and DNR?
Please, don't give up on being nice. "You attract more flies with honey!"
Again, send me some info on the PIT tags they want to use, and I'll help you out on the science side of things. Unfortunately, I don't have any good contacts on the inside with Ohio DNR, but I'll see if I can find out what is going on from my side of the fence.

Big Brother

BB and Kevin,

You both make good, valid points. I'm not the one taking the ODNR to court (as I said earlier, I did't get "busted". But I can assure you that the people filing class action suits about the PIT tag issue are very angry, determined and experienced in fighting these issues. They have good reason - Avid doesn't recommend that their chips be used on reptiles and no other state has a PIT tag mandate.

The fact that most DNR's have limited budgets and resources just makes it all the more important that they form positive alliances with whoever wants to help. This would have been especially useful at a wild caught show like Columbus, where legitimate breeders would probably be more than willing to point out law breakers (either as a moral issue or to eliminate some unfair competetion!).

The point I was making is that some people ARE willing to help, and most legitimate breeders support reasonable conservation efforts. We just need a little governmental cooperation. I also wanted other breeders to know just how out-of-hand things have gotten here in Ohio - some people think things like this "just won't happen to them." Believe me, it can happen.

The entire incident makes everybody look bad. Yes, there were some "bad guy" herpers selling Blanding's turtles and other wild caught herps and it makes reptile enthusiasts look like criminals. But the DNR came out looking just as bad (perhaps worse, articles in "Reptiles" magazine have been bashing the "bust" and I'm sure if these court battles are won by herpers, it will generate even more negativity for the government). It's a shame.

Although I cannot speak on the behalf of NOAH (I'm not the president), I think that it is a safe bet that the organization is still willing to discuss the issues stated in the July 2000 letter to the ODNR in order to reach some resolutions that both parties can live with AND would be good for the conservation of native Ohio herps.

The sad thing is that it could have been accomplished without all the mudslinging.

Tim Spuckler

I have NO idea how that "Smiley Face" got into my last post - I don't even like those things!

Kevin,

You said "I do not understand the ODNR's logic."
What logic? (Sorry, I couldn't resist).
Although there are lots of people on these forums with different ideas and viewpoints, I think most of us agree that the best way to conserve and learn about reptiles and amphibians is to work with herp societies and breeders - not against them.

Keep up the good work!

Tim Spuckler