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More on Pentagon Global Warming Report

pulatus Feb 23, 2004 09:27 PM

Although this is a long article I think it, and the one imediately below lend some insight into the debate. This is not a simple issue - but it is an important one. Simple attitudes and simplistic interpretations of the evidence are useless. Unfortunately, much of what we read from the left, and almost ALL of what we read from the right is misleading. Regurgitating absurd notions with no attempt to actually understand the process is problematic.

This is a left leaning report that points to a recently leaked Pentagon document on global warming. The report was suppressed by the Whitehouse.

=========

THE SKY IS FALLING FOR REAL

Climate change over the next 20 years could result in a global catastrophe costing millions of lives in wars and natural disasters. That is what a recent semi-secret report requested by the Pentagon and outed by several news outlets warns. The report says that major European cities will be sunk beneath rising seas as Britain is plunged into a 'Siberian' climate by 2020. Nuclear conflict, mega-droughts, famine and widespread rioting will erupt across the world. The document predicts that abrupt climate change could bring the planet to the edge of anarchy as countries develop a nuclear threat to defend and secure dwindling food, water and energy supplies. The threat to global stability vastly eclipses that of terrorism it says. 'Disruption and conflict will be endemic features of life,' concludes the Pentagon analysis. 'Once again, warfare would define human life.'

Bob Watson, chief scientist for the World Bank and former chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, says that the Pentagon's dire warnings could no longer be ignored. 'Can Bush ignore the Pentagon? It's going be hard to blow off this sort of document. It’s hugely embarrassing. After all, Bush's single highest priority is national defense. The Pentagon is no wacko, liberal group, generally speaking it is conservative. If climate change is a threat to national security and the economy, then he has to act. There are two groups the Bush Administration tend to listen to, the oil lobby and the Pentagon,' added Watson.

'You've got a President who says global warming is a hoax, and across the Potomac River you've got a Pentagon preparing for climate wars. It's pretty scary when Bush starts to ignore his own government on this issue,' said Rob Gueterbock of Greenpeace.

Already, according to Doug Randall and Peter Schwartz, the reports authors, the planet is carrying a higher population than it can sustain. By 2020 'catastrophic' shortages of water and energy supply will become increasingly harder to overcome, plunging the planet into war. They warn that 8,200 years ago climatic conditions brought widespread crop failure, famine, disease and mass migration of populations that could soon be repeated. Randall says that the potential ramifications of rapid climate change would create global chaos. 'This is depressing stuff,' he said. 'It is a national security threat that is unique because there is no enemy to point your guns at and we have no control over the threat.' He added that it was already possibly too late to prevent a disaster happening. 'We don't know exactly where we are in the process. It could start tomorrow and we would not know for another five years,' he said. 'The consequences for some nations of the climate change are unbelievable. It seems obvious that cutting the use of fossil fuels would be worthwhile.'

How can things happen so fast when we’re generally lead to believe that such changes take eons? For one thing, growing evidence suggests the ocean-atmosphere system that controls the world's climate can lurch from one state to another in less than a decade—like a canoe that's gradually tilted until suddenly it flips over. Climate researchers began getting seriously concerned about it a decade ago, after studying temperature indicators embedded in ancient layers of Arctic ice. The data show that a number of dramatic shifts in average temperature took place in the past with shocking speed—in some cases, just a few years.

The case for angst was buttressed by a theory regarded as the most likely explanation for the abrupt changes. The eastern U.S. and northern Europe, it seems, are warmed by a huge Atlantic Ocean current that flows north from the tropics—that's why Britain, at Labrador's latitude, is relatively temperate. Pumping out warm, moist air, this "great conveyor" current gets cooler and denser as it moves north. That causes the current to sink in the North Atlantic, where it heads south again in the ocean depths. The sinking process draws more water from the south, keeping the roughly circular current on the go.

But when the climate warms, according to the theory, fresh water from melting Arctic glaciers flows into the North Atlantic, lowering the current's salinity—and its density and tendency to sink. A warmer climate also increases rainfall and runoff into the current, further lowering its saltiness. As a result, the conveyor loses its main motive force and can rapidly collapse, turning off the huge heat pump and altering the climate over much of the Northern Hemisphere.

Scientists aren't sure what caused the warming that triggered such collapses in the remote past. (Clearly it wasn't humans and their factories.) But the data from Arctic ice and other sources suggest the atmospheric changes that preceded earlier collapses were dismayingly similar to today's global warming. As the Ice Age began drawing to a close about 13,000 years ago, for example, temperatures in Greenland rose to levels near those of recent decades. Then they abruptly plunged as the conveyor apparently shut down, ushering in the "Younger Dryas" period, a 1,300-year reversion to ice-age conditions. (A dryas is an Arctic flower that flourished in Europe at the time.)

Though triggered by warming, such change would probably cause cooling in the Northern Hemisphere, leading to longer, harsher winters in much of the U.S. and Europe. Worse, it would cause massive droughts, turning farmland to dust bowls and forests to ashes. Picture last fall's California wildfires as a regular thing. Or imagine similar disasters destabilizing nuclear powers such as Pakistan or Russia—it's easy to see why the Pentagon has become interested in abrupt climate change.

Here is an abridged version of the report:

A total shutdown of the ocean conveyor might lead to a big chill like the Younger Dryas, when icebergs appeared as far south as the coast of Portugal. Or the conveyor might only temporarily slow down, potentially causing an era like the "Little Ice Age," a time of hard winters, violent storms, and droughts between 1300 and 1850. That period's weather extremes caused horrific famines, but it was mild compared with the Younger Dryas.

For planning purposes, it makes sense to focus on a midrange case of abrupt change. A century of cold, dry, windy weather across the Northern Hemisphere that suddenly came on 8,200 years ago fits the bill—its severity fell between that of the Younger Dryas and the Little Ice Age. The event is thought to have been triggered by a conveyor collapse after a time of rising temperatures not unlike today's global warming. Suppose it recurred, beginning in 2010. Here are some of the things that might happen by 2020:

At first the changes are easily mistaken for normal weather variation—allowing skeptics to dismiss them as a "blip" of little importance and leaving policymakers and the public paralyzed with uncertainty. But by 2020 there is little doubt that something drastic is happening. The average temperature has fallen by up to five degrees Fahrenheit in some regions of North America and Asia and up to six degrees in parts of Europe. (By comparison, the average temperature over the North Atlantic during the last ice age was ten to 15 degrees lower than it is today.) Massive droughts have begun in key agricultural regions. The average annual rainfall has dropped by nearly 30% in northern Europe, and its climate has become more like Siberia's.

Violent storms are increasingly common as the conveyor becomes wobbly on its way to collapse. A particularly severe storm causes the ocean to break through levees in the Netherlands, making coastal cities such as the Hague unlivable. In California the delta island levees in the Sacramento River area are breached, disrupting the aqueduct system transporting water from north to south.

Megadroughts afflict the U.S., especially in the southern states, along with winds that are 15% stronger on average than they are now, causing widespread dust storms and soil loss. The U.S. is better positioned to cope than most nations, however, thanks to its diverse growing climates, wealth, technology, and abundant resources. Of course, this further magnifies the haves-vs.-have-nots gap.

Turning inward, the U.S. effectively seeks to build a fortress around itself to preserve resources. Borders are strengthened to hold back starving immigrants from Mexico, South America, and the Caribbean islands—waves of boat people pose especially grim problems. Tension between the U.S. and Mexico rises as the U.S. reneges on a 1944 treaty that guarantees water flow from the Colorado River into Mexico. America is forced to meet its rising energy demand with options that are costly both economically and politically, including nuclear power and onerous Middle Eastern contracts. Yet it survives without catastrophic losses.

Europe, hardest hit by its temperature drop, struggles to deal with immigrants from Scandinavia seeking warmer climes to the south. Southern Europe is beleaguered by refugees from hard-hit countries in Africa and elsewhere. But Western Europe's wealth helps buffer it from catastrophe.

Australia's size and resources help it cope, as does its location—the conveyor shutdown mainly affects the Northern Hemisphere. Japan has fewer resources but is able to draw on its social cohesion to cope—its government is able to induce population-wide behavior changes to conserve resources.

China's huge population and food demand make it particularly vulnerable. It is hit by increasingly unpredictable monsoon rains, which cause devastating floods in drought-denuded areas. Other parts of Asia and East Africa are similarly stressed. Much of Bangladesh becomes nearly uninhabitable because of a rising sea level, which contaminates inland water supplies. Countries whose diversity already produces conflict, such as India and Indonesia, are hard-pressed to maintain internal order while coping with the unfolding changes.

As the decade progresses, pressures to act become irresistible—history shows that whenever humans have faced a choice between starving or raiding, they raid. Imagine Eastern European countries, struggling to feed their populations, invading Russia—which is weakened by a population that is already in decline—for access to its minerals and energy supplies. Or picture Japan eyeing nearby Russian oil and gas reserves to power desalination plants and energy-intensive farming. Envision nuclear-armed Pakistan, India, and China skirmishing at their borders over refugees, access to shared rivers, and arable land. Or Spain and Portugal fighting over fishing rights—fisheries are disrupted around the world as water temperatures change, causing fish to migrate to new habitats.

Growing tensions engender novel alliances. Canada joins fortress America in a North American bloc. (Alternatively, Canada may seek to keep its abundant hydropower for itself, straining its ties with the energy-hungry U.S.) North and South Korea align to create a technically savvy, nuclear-armed entity. Europe forms a truly unified bloc to curb its immigration problems and protect against aggressors. Russia, threatened by impoverished neighbors in dire straits, may join the European bloc.

Nuclear arms proliferation is inevitable. Oil supplies are stretched thin as climate cooling drives up demand. Many countries seek to shore up their energy supplies with nuclear energy, accelerating nuclear proliferation. Japan, South Korea, and Germany develop nuclear-weapons capabilities, as do Iran, Egypt, and North Korea. Israel, China, India, and Pakistan also are poised to use the bomb.

The changes relentlessly hammer the world's "carrying capacity"—the natural resources, social organizations, and economic networks that support the population. Technological progress and market forces, which have long helped boost Earth's carrying capacity, can do little to offset the crisis—it is too widespread and unfolds too fast.

As the planet's carrying capacity shrinks, an ancient pattern reemerges: the eruption of desperate, all-out wars over food, water, and energy supplies. As Harvard archeologist Steven LeBlanc has noted, wars over resources were the norm until about three centuries ago. When such conflicts broke out, 25% of a population's adult males usually died. As abrupt climate change hits home, warfare may again come to define human life.

As stated before the people who brought us this news are not “left wing kooks”,like me, that Bush and company can easily ignore (though I predict they will).

Peter Schwartz is cofounder and chairman of Global Business Network, a Monitor Group company. He is an internationally renowned futurist and business strategist. From 1982 to 1986, Schwartz headed scenario planning for the Royal Dutch/Shell Group of Companies in London. His team conducted comprehensive analyses of the global business and political environment and worked with senior management to create successful strategies. Before joining Royal Dutch/Shell, Peter directed the Strategic Environment Center at SRI International. The Center researched the business milieu, lifestyles, and consumer values, and conducted scenario planning for corporate and government clients.

Doug Randall is senior practitioner, specializing in managing uncertainty, scenario thinking, and business strategy for Global Business Network. Author of recent publications on hydrogen fuel and tools for managing uncertainty, he is a former senior research fellow at the Wharton School. In addition to designing corporate strategy at dozens of Fortune 500 companies, he has worked with the Cherokee Nation, the World Business Council on Sustainable Development, and the Credit Union Executive Society to develop processes for operating under severe uncertainty.

Andrew Marshall was A RAND Corporation nuclear expert beginning in 1949 and was brought by Henry Kissinger onto the National Security Council then appointed by President Nixon to direct the Pentagon's Office of Net Assessment. He has been there ever since. His innocuous-sounding office comes with a big brief: to ''assess'' regional and global military balances and to determine long-term trends and threats. Marshall was behind some of the key strategic decisions of the Reagan years. He is a mentor of Donald Rumsfeld who often goes to him for guidance. He was handpicked by Rumsfeld to put together his strategic military review. Sources: Fortune, Guardian, BBC, AFP, Daily Kos, Global Business Network, Defense Strategy Review Page, Center for Security Policy

Replies (33)

rodmalm Feb 24, 2004 05:16 AM

This just goes back to one of my earlier posts.

While most scientists don't believe in global warming or that we are causing it, most of the general public does.

How does 80% of the public, or 80% of an administration, believe in it, when only about 15% of scientists do?

The media should stop referring to this very flawed theory as though it was fact, as that will only influence the general public into believing it even more. It's sad when the public is so stupid that it can't tell the difference between a theory and a fact.

Do some people really think that warming by as little as 1 degree in 100 years will cause ocean currents to change within the next 15 years? Everyday, I am amazed by the ignorance of the general public.

A politicians opinion is not equal to a scientists experiment, and it never will be! Unfortunately, the politicians opinion will regularly get published and put into the media while the scientists data will not. The brainwashing of the public goes on and on, and everyone gets hurt--except for the environmental lawyers/lobbiests.

Rodney

H+E Stoeckl Feb 24, 2004 11:18 AM

... all evidence tells us that there is a global warming.
In Italy a sceletton was released from a melting glacier that has been buried there for thousands of years.

Maybe you live in a region where global warming is not as perceptible as on other places or you just wear political blinkers. I am not in the position to claim global warming is caused by man or whatsoever reason. But if one has eyes to see and a skin to feel and ears to hear there is no way around that global warming does exist!

Again, only time will tell who is right. But it would be a wise decision to react now instead of waiting if global warming is existing or not. When the truth becomes obvious it's too late.

rodmalm Feb 24, 2004 02:57 PM

First off, global warming means that the entire earth is warming on average. One area warming, while another area cools, is not global warming. It makes no difference where you live when you are talking about global warming.

Many parts of the world are experiencing expanding glaciers. Just because some other parts of the world are experiencing shrinking ones does not prove/disprove global warming.

When looking at average temperatures of the earth, there has been cooling for the last 20 years. How is this a warming trend exactly? Sure, things fluctuate, but when things have been cooling for 20 years, why do we now worry about warming when the opposite is happening currently? Why were we worried about an ice age coming in the 1960s-1970s when that is when there actually was some small warming seen? Why has it been cooling in the last 20 years, now that we are polluting so much? Why was it warming when we were not polluting so much?

Here's an interesting article to put things into perspective.

http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

When you consider how insignificant man is (on global warming) compared to things that occur naturally (volcanoes/ocean currents/fires/CO2 production from all living things/etc.) Why do you think we are having any effect at all? Why do you think we should spend trillions of dollars on this issue, when that money could be spent elsewhere to help people? Why do you think spending that kind of money, to try and change a small fraction of a small fraction, it worthwhile?

And then, what about all the scientists that think a slight warming would be a good thing, if it was occuring?--increases growing seasons for more food/people like it warmer in winter/less fuel being burned to keep our homes warm/etc.)

Rodney

H+E Stoeckl Feb 24, 2004 07:51 PM

...

Zoso Feb 25, 2004 11:50 AM

Rodney,

I finally had to say something.............

You are just as ignorant in the way you defend your assertation that global warming is not due to human means as are those that might assert that because some winters have been mild that it is a fact.

Very few informed scientists who have studied the subject will make ANY statements that imply absolute certainty.......that is irresponsible science. Two major points that I would like to address are:

1. Any change in global climate WILL come with mixed signals. You are correct in that there are places that become warmer and those that get cooler, and that the theory implies an AVERAGE trend of warming. Along the way, assuming there is a change in global climate, most scientists agree that the first real signs will be abnormal weather worldwide........increase in storm intensity, droughts, floods and general changes in weather patterns. There is some evidence that this is occuring, but htis of course does not make it scientific fact !! It does, however, mean that we as humans, should investigate further such a crucial aspect of life in a very thin layer of livable space on our rock floating in space.

2. Do you also dispute the damage to the ozone layer ?? I dare ya. This serious problem is a fact, and one in which a seemingly small amount of a supposedly inert chemical silently devoured a crucial element of our atmospheric protection, and one in which it took decades to convince the governments and chemical companies of the world to admit to.

Please remember that science is a constantly self correcting and evolving collection of theories.............but also remember that it is science that gave you the very instrument that you espouse your opinions with.

A seriously studied theory that might have grave consequences for us all should not be dismissed so readily.

rodmalm Feb 25, 2004 01:37 PM

Very few informed scientists who have studied the subject will make ANY statements that imply absolute certainty.......that is irresponsible science. Two major points that I would like to address are:

I couldn't agree more with that. That was one point of my original post many weeks ago. It is consistently represented in the media that the consensus among scientists is that we are causing global warming. Yet, when I looked into it, I found multiple polls and some petitions that showed the opposite, and I couldn't find a single poll to support this claim! Global warming is a theory (with many flaws), it is not a fact and should not be represented as such by the media, nor should it be repressented as the consensus of most scientists. This only forms a public opinion on an issue that is probably false. However, when satellite data shows cooling for the last 20 years (and that includes short warming trends caused by 2 major volcanic eruptions) I find it ignorant to claim "warming" when the data shows the exact opposite. If the data did show some warming during this period, I could understand the argument that there is warming. But why "would anyone say we are experiencing global warming when the data shows we are currently (for the last 20 years) cooling? And why would anyone say human made pollution causes it, when we know that most of the warming that did occur over the last 150 years, occurred before we were a "pollution problem", while very little warming has occurred since we started being a "pollution problem"?

Seems to me, that if you look at the data, and you assume we are the cause of it, we are causing cooling and not warming!--or at least, the warming that was occurring many years ago has slowed to the point that it has now reversed itself, and humans are no factor at all.

1. Any change in global climate WILL come with mixed signals. You are correct in that there are places that become warmer and those that get cooler, and that the theory implies an AVERAGE trend of warming. Along the way, assuming there is a change in global climate, most scientists agree that the first real signs will be abnormal weather worldwide........increase in storm intensity, droughts, floods and general changes in weather patterns. There is some evidence that this is occurring, but this of course does not make it scientific fact !! It does, however, mean that we as humans, should investigate further such a crucial aspect of life in a very thin layer of livable space on our rock floating in space.

And there lies the problem. On AVERAGE, the Earth has been cooling ever since scientists started looking at global warming. And those same scientists were worried about an ice age just a decade or two earlier.

2. Do you also dispute the damage to the ozone layer ?? I dare ya. This serious problem is a fact, and one in which a seemingly small amount of a supposedly inert chemical silently devoured a crucial element of our atmospheric protection, and one in which it took decades to convince the governments and chemical companies of the world to admit to.

No, I don't dispute damage to the ozone layer. But I do dispute that we are the cause of it! Why has the major ozone hole been located over Antartica (extremely "clean", non-polluted area), and not over high population areas where the ozone damaging chemicals are located? Why is the major ozone hole located in an area where radiation from the sun is always present? (Rarely behind the Earth, in shade, where it will regenerate.)

Please remember that science is a constantly self correcting and evolving collection of theories.............but also remember that it is science that gave you the very instrument that you espouse your opinions with.

Kind of true, science is a lot more than that, and a lot of theories don't evolve at all, they simply die when they are proven false. I would't call "the earth as being flat" as a theory that evolved, but a theory that died, which was replaced by the correct "Earth is round" theory. But again, theories should not be represented as fact, until proven. I started making a mental note of when the media referred to global warming. I would guess a little more than 90% of the time they refer to it as "global warming", and a little less than 10% of the time as "the theory of global warming". I have seen polls of the public where 80%+ think it is true, and 100% of children in school think it is true, and that was my original point. The media is heavily influencing the public opinion on this issue, and not the science behind it, or environmental scientists views of it.

Speaking of ozone, how much pollution do you think was generated by people having to buy new equipment (air-conditioners/refrigerators/etc. anything that uses freon) because they couldn't have their old equipment "serviced" anymore? How much did this extra needed production hurt the Earth? How much did this cost society? How many billions/trillions were made replacing perfectly good equipment?

Of how about this:

Freon was developed and patented by the DuPont Company. Ironically, the DuPont patents on Freon ran out at about the same time the government decrees to ban the use of Freon were issued. The leading replacement substances for Freon were also developed by DuPont. The Freon (HCFC) substances are far more costly and far more complex, to the extent that DuPont stands to make untold billions of dollars on the change out of this substance, and consumers will have an inferior product. Further, the DuPont substitutes have no supporting data to prove they meet environmental needs.

Think DuPont could be in bed with the govt.? Billions could certainly be made off what appears to be the "global warming" fraud also.

Here's an interesting article on the subject--try doing a search using the words "ozone hole fraud" and you will find many more.

http://www.discerningtoday.org/ozone_depl_twilight_.htm

How many "liberals" are outraged at a company/politicians making money off a war, but aren't outraged by companies/politicians making money off of this?

Just because the media repeats something so many times that the public eventually believes it, does not make it true!

Rodney

kick_baal Feb 25, 2004 10:51 PM

However, when satellite data shows cooling for the last 20 years (and that includes short warming trends caused by 2 major volcanic eruptions) I find it ignorant to claim "warming" when the data shows the exact opposite.

Rodney,

You have your signals mixed. The volcanic eruptions lowered the average temperature across the globe by 1 degree. As the cooling trend you mention, one of my hobbies is growing palms and other tropical plants outdoors and I can now grow plants in my yard that used to freeze out in the early 1980s. This seems to be possible because we don't have as many cold hours in a given Winter. The temperature fluctuates from well below freezing to 40/55 degrees on most days in my region but I can remember when it was more consistent - the day begins at 18F and it reaches a high of 26F. In fact this very thing that would seem a blessing comes with its own unique problem: some plants that are completely hardy to cold up to 2 USDA zones above me die from repeated freezing and thawing events. Weird huh? When our climate changes, I fear that problems like this will be magnified.

BTW Rodney this should thrill you to your little toes - I'm not convinced that Global Warming is completely our fault. I tend to believe that is a natural event beyond our ability to change. However, I do think that we have sped up this process of nature with our indiscriminate burning of fossil fuels and our apparent need to denude the landscape of every last f**king tree to jam 4 overpriced fiberboard and spit houses on a 0.9 acre lot.
-----
Who is like Set...

1.1 Vietnamese Blue Beauties
2.0 Taiwan Beauties
2.3 Cave Beauties
0.1 Bull Snake
1.0.0 Argentine Blk & Wht Tegu
2.5 Box Turtles

rodmalm Feb 26, 2004 12:01 AM

While I understand that many believe volcanoes lower global temps, due to particulate matter in the air, I was merely pointing out that in the last 20 years, the main "up" periods coincided with volcanoes, not necessarily that the volcanos caused the rise. I reread an earlier post of mine, and I see that it looks like that is what I intended. It's interesting that water vapor causes significantly (about 20 times more of an effect) more warming than CO2 does. Could these eruptions be causing a dramatic increase in water vapor? I don't really know.

I don't know if you saw this earlier, but here it is again.

Note, the large gain in 1982 was when there was a volcanic eruption from El Chichon and in 1991 from Mt. Pinatubo! Without them it would be pretty much all be down since 1982. Doesn't look like global warming to me! In fact, every year of the last 10 has been below average! Even with the rise, during the volcanic eruptions, there is still a cooling trend if you average it. So again, why is everyone talking about global warming now, when the facts show there is cooling going on currently?

If you go back a ways, some scientists were talking about an ice age when we really were showing signs of warming. And now that there is significant data showing cooling, some are talking about warming?

As far as cutting trees, I'm not sure that has anything to do with it. After all, trees produce a lot of water vapor, and this influences global warming much more than CO2 does. Wouldn't cutting trees cause cooling?

(Though I don't believe that argument either, as I understand that there are a lot more trees now than there used to be.--due to reduced logging, better logging(non-clear cuts), inproved fire fighting techniques, etc.)

Rodney

rearfang Feb 26, 2004 01:02 PM

Interesting...I know that here we have our coldest nights when there are no clouds. To speculate....maybe water vapor traps heat from the sun and prevents it from disapating from ground radiation. I'm not that familiar with that field of science so it's a guess..

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

rodmalm Feb 24, 2004 03:05 PM

Though I have noticed no effect here in California, I have relatives in Duluth, MN. that have said the same thing.

In fact they e-mailed, about 2 weeks ago, saying how it was -30 all week, with a wind chill of more than -50, and children couldn't go to school. Not because of snow, but because it was too dangerous to go outside to try and get to school! And that's in Feb.! They occasionally cancel school there due to too much snow, but rarely due to extreme cold.

Sure am happy I live in California! Though I wish it was warmer here right now--around 60 in the day. Another 10-20 degrees would be perfect!

Rodney

dan felice Feb 24, 2004 04:19 PM

rodney, do you make this stuff up as you go along or something??? you're only off by approx. 55/60*!!!! it was actually nice in MN this week as far as MN februarys go.......sorry to tell ya.

greyhound Feb 24, 2004 04:52 PM

Rodney is correct. A great friend of mine and fellow herper was in Duluth a few weeks back and said it was brutal. Were you by chance in Duluth two weeks ago?

rodmalm Feb 24, 2004 04:58 PM

I clearly said about 2 weeks ago. Why is it, everytime I make a factual statement, a liberal changes what I said and then claims I am wrong?

The point is, you can't judge global warming by just looking at temps. in one particular area. Global means global, not local!

Another example of how our schools have failed us once again.

Rodney

rearfang Feb 24, 2004 05:01 PM

Personally I am jealous (lol)....it was 86* here today....10* above normal.........Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

greyhound Feb 24, 2004 06:44 PM

Rodney, I must commend you on your performance and civility and most of all, your patience in dealing with some of these people. While you have always taken the time to respond to the needs of the "leftists" here, they seem to be very selective in reference to what they will and will not respond to themselves. Keep up the great work! I'm still waiting for a response to my earlier post...

Well said. The Bush/America bashing gets old. Maybe the bashers could tell us who has a better country and why. It should get fairly quiet in here.

Grey

rearfang Feb 24, 2004 07:37 PM

Have to comment. I am not a leftist, but I think your idea is a bit off. Speaking about what someone feels is wrong. ..is not the same thing as "bashing our country". So to ask them if they can find a better country a ridiculous response to their arguements.

It reminds me of the debates over Nam where the conservatives called out "Love our country or leave it" to back their war hawk additudes. They were wrong.

I did favor the strike against Afghanistan-it was justified. But we should have left and waited for Osama to raise his head instead of getting bogged down.

I have been opposed to the war in Iraq because I did not think it was justified and I do not think that it will bring liberty to these people (as I posted below).

I think Bush just put his foot in it Big Time with the anti-gay marriage ammendment. I do not approve of gay marriage. But it is not an issue for the Government to get involved in and may well cost Bush the election.

To disagree is fundimentaly American. Telling pople they need to leave the country because they disagree with you is contrary to every freedom you propose to defend.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Eric East Feb 24, 2004 08:46 PM

Frank,

I respectfully disagree with you. We are justified in going into Iraq because it is a terrorist state & the fact that WMD's have not been found does not matter in the least to me. Well, it does matter some, because I would love to say "I told you so" to the Bush bashers. Other than that, I don't care if the weapons are ever found. We all know they existed.
I believe we should do all we can to promote peace & end suffering, even though according to God's word ( I know many of you don't believe it that either ) there will be no peace in world, especially that region until the return of Christ.

I'm glad you're against gay marriage & for the most part I agree with you that we are better off when government stays out of our lives. However, I don't see any way around it other than "LEGALLY" amending the constitution to ban it.
It is imperative that we not let marriage & the family be degraded any further than it already has.

Eric

pulatus Feb 24, 2004 09:27 PM

Its the arrogance of the religious that cause many of the ills of this world. Religions are worthless unless the believer believes theirs is the one true word of god. So you have all these different religions with true believers all believeing that they have the only true beliefs. It would be comical if it weren't so deadly.

Of course there is no one true religion. But if you tell that to a true believer they'll point to whatever holy writings or oral tradition they have that "proves" theirs is the one true religion. Obviously this is an absurd position to hold, but believers have a deep psychological need for their religion, and of course, it must be true to function for them at all. Again, this would just be curious, even amusing if it weren't deadly.

Because religious people have this deep psychological need for their religion to be true and to be protected that they will kill to protect it. This is what the fundamentalists in the middle east are doing, what the fundamentalists in west Africa are doing (christian and muslem) and what fundamentalists in the US would do if they felt threatened.

Fundamentalism is the same - functions the same - in the mind of the believer regardless of the particular brand of religion considered. We need to learn from the troubles fundamentalism causes in this world and search for ways to eradicate it. In the US, for example, fundamentalists are trying to impose their religious beliefs on the rest of the country by pressuring Bush into supporting a constitutional ammendment against gay marriage.

The constitution was written by brilliant men writing to ensure the liberties of all. To add an ammendment that specifically designates a group to discriminate against - and to do so based on religious beliefs in simply stunning. Thomas Jefferson would be appalled.

I deeply resent the imposition of flatulant fakirs like Osama Bin Falwell and Ayatolla Robertson dictating to any free man or woman in this country what will be accepted moral behavior. I consider them both to be highly immoral people who have no right to even pretend to have some handle on just what is or isn't moral. Robertson is a friend and business partner with a viscious, brutal dictator and is a 2-bit thief with all the snake oil he peddles and the money he swindles from helpless old and feeble minded people.

Marriage needs to become a truly optional religious ceremony and/or a secular, but not civily binding celebration. Civil unions, open equally to all, should become the only legally important aspect of a couples legal obligations and rights. In other words, marriage should go away as a civil and legal contract. This way, any church can create their own rules for marriage, none of which will impact civil unions in the least.

rearfang Feb 25, 2004 06:57 AM

pullatus...enjoy the moment....I actualy agree with you. Strange isn't it? (lol)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

greyhound Feb 26, 2004 09:14 PM

"I actualy agree with you".

Uh, it's "actually" with two Ls.

rearfang Feb 24, 2004 09:41 PM

Eric, Aside from the issue of WMD's, there is the issue of... How long will a government we install last before it is replaced by the same kind that was there before? I hate to see American lives wasted in such a venture because history does not favor Democracy in Arab nations. This is not Germany or Italy where there was an established history of democracy that could be restored. Fundimentally Moslem culture favors "religious or military dictatorships. Democracy works if the grass roots are raised with it and adopt it...like in our American revolution. Again, look at the troubles in Haiti, another country where democracy was alien.

As to a constitutional Amendment, it brings up issues that are too fundimental. I would vote against it because I think government does not belong in this issue, reguardless of my own convictions. This will hurt Bush because a lot of people will agree with his sentiment but not with the government being allowed such a broad brush to paint morality with.

Marriage will work as an institution only if individual commitment is held dear. You cannot legislate that. And it is a mistake to try. probably this is one of those issues that the churches would be better of using their influence than putting another law on the books.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

greyhound Feb 26, 2004 09:19 PM

After tonights grammar lesson, I hope you'll never spell fundamental with an 'I' again.

Also..."reguardless"...look it up! Aren't you glad you corrected my one mistake earlier? What's good for the goose...

greyhound Feb 25, 2004 05:48 AM

"To disagree is fundimentaly American. Telling pople they need to leave the country because they disagree with you is contrary to every freedom you propose to defend".

Where did I say for anyone to leave the country Frank??? Another "Liberal" bad habit. Just answer the question and without the spin please. Who has a better country and why?

rearfang Feb 25, 2004 06:44 AM

Sorry greyhound, that response was meant as a blanket reply for all the fine folk that amened that "leave it statement below".

Your question however, is irrelevent. That is why I did not answer it. It is a cheap rationalization ploy that is commonly used when there are no arguements left to support an issue. To assume that we must accept what we see as wrong because "our country is better than anybodies" has nothing to do with what is being debated here. What I am saying is debate the issue but remember we are all Americans here. Even the ones we disagree with.

As a Goldwater Nixon Reagan suporter, calling me "Liberal" is like calling th Pope-Jewish. I don't like Bush. That does not make me a liberal...Beware of labeling people.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

greyhound Feb 26, 2004 09:26 PM

"Irrelevent" is actually spelled irrelevant and "arguement" is really argument. "Anybodies", which is possessive, should have been anybody's. Hope this helps in the future.

snakeguy88 Mar 02, 2004 06:45 PM

Wow...That sure looked like a cheap shot from someone that had been backed into a corner. I hope you are enjoying the taste of that crow.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

greyhound Mar 02, 2004 07:17 PM

Interesting. Now what on earth would possess you to attack my post like that? Won't anyone else pay attention to you? Had you been following this thread before KS deleted many of the posts in it, you would have known that Rearfang had the audacity to correct one word that I spelled wrong after all the mistakes he has made. In other words, he initiated the grammar lesson. THAT was all HE had left. I simply followed up by returning the favor. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to show people here your true colors...Troll. Now go instigate someone who cares.

greyhound Mar 02, 2004 07:20 PM

How's that crow? What does it taste like? I've never had any.

snakeguy88 Mar 02, 2004 10:05 PM

Well, I apologize. I blame it on KS though as they deleted the threads. I had been trying to follow, but since I "troll" on so many forums I do not have time. Again, I apologize.
-----
Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

greyhound Mar 03, 2004 06:05 AM

No harm. My apologies for the harsh response.

pulatus Feb 24, 2004 09:00 PM

I don't think I understand rodney. You brought up a specific temperature in a particular area at a particular time, and then in your follow up post said, " you can't judge global warming by just looking at temps in one particular area. Global means global, not local!"

And then it was kinda funny because you added:

"Another example of how our schools have failed us once again."

Hee-hee.

Joe

rodmalm Feb 25, 2004 01:30 AM

Well, Joe, if you had read the multiple posts that this refers to, you would understand. Unfortunately, some of them have since been deleted,--due to vulgarity I assume. I know this, for a fact, because the title of one of my posts was a copy of the title of the post before it, and that original title/post is now gone. I can see how you could come to the conclusion of your previous post, since you apparently missed some of the other points. Here's a better explanation, for someone coming into this in the middle of things.

I was simply making the point that just because someone says "There is less snow on the ground now, than when I was a kid, thus you can't tell me that global warming isn't true" is not valid because other parts of the world have people saying "There is more snow/extreme cold now."

I was not saying that the people in those colder areas are experiencing global cooling, or that such an argument is valid (regarding global warming). I was simply saying that using either argument is nonsense. Both refer to a local phenomenon and not a global one, thus, referring to cooler conditions locally is just as invalid as referring to a warmer conditions locally, when discussing the inadequacies of the global warming theory. Thus, your local conditions, whatever they happen to be, are irrelevant as far as global warming is concerned.

And anyone stating that local conditions prove global conditions, hasn't had a very good education! I know the difference between local and global, as should everyone.

Understand now?

Rodney

rearfang Feb 25, 2004 06:32 AM

Hi Rodney, Those posts were deleted because we were visited by our one surviving Troll.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

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