Reptile & Amphibian Forums

You Dry guys always mention size as the determining factor. I figure you guys have never caught a Bruce Lee movie or seen a Sugar Ray Leonard fight ? Size does not always rule out sometimes and more than not it comes down to their skill in killing and not who bites harder. Mike asked a question below in that would you rather get bit by an indigo or have a 6 foot King wrapped around your neck constricting ? I think it was Doug T. who answered the King because he could just unwrap it. Well how about if he couldnt use his arms to unwrap this king ? An Indigo as cool as they are dont have arms, last I checked anyway LOL. I think you Dry guys really underestimate the power of constriction. After watching that little tiny Outer Banks King getting the upperhand I was convinced that Drys are gonna have real problems taking down constricting snakes especially ones that like the flavor of snake meat as well. My guess is if you pitted a 7-8'Indigo and a 6-7' King together 10 times it would be 70/30 with the King winning 70% of the time maybe a little more. I saw someone post they witnessed or know somebody who knows somebody they have seen Indigo's eating Floridana in the wild regularly LOL. WOW bring a camera in the field man you seem to stumble upon some amazing things all the time and also buy some lottery tickets on the way cause you are a very lucky person indeed.

Keith
-----

Amen brother,

"It's not always the size of the dog in the fight, more often it's the size of the fight in the dog" that determines the victor... Maybe these Dry guys are trying to compensate subconsciensly for some other underlying individual limitation that they have got to learn to come to grips with... Small penis size perhaps... LOL...

Eric Johnson

I believe Steve Craig posted an interesting encounter of a much smaller kingsnake dispatching a coachwhip at least twice it's size... It's on this forum about 2 weeks back... Check it out...

Eric Johnson

I saw that and that situation was identical to the one my Outer Banks King and Yellow Tail Cribo where in. I dont know what would have happened if I hadnt euthanized the Outer Banks King. That Coachwhip thing is very relevant to Indigo's as well as Coachwhips are like Indigo's on Crack.

Keith
-----

ive personally seen a florida king eat an indigo outside a gopher tortise burrow. the king was around 5 feet, and the indigo was around 4-4.5. no doubt in my mind that an evenly matched fight could go either way, but any large drymarchon can stomp a smaller king(if its much larger than the king).

also, how you liking your yellowtail? im considering either a tex indigo or a blacktail, and i am interested in your experiences with the personality and husbandry differences between lampropeltis and drymarchon.

greg

I love the YT he just shed and is getting some more orange on him in addition to the yellow. As far as differences there really arent any that Ive found except the YT I have is a 2003 and he is as big or bigger than most of my 2002 Eastern Kings !

Keith
-----

They are babies.

baby dry's are skittish little things that are 90% head.
(although yours is a very nice one )

We have to talk adult snakes here!

Dean agreed this was not like to adults going at it but it is a micro glimpse as they both were doing what the adults would have done and they were both 2003 hatch. One was 30" the other 11" both were just little guys of their own kind and the king was winning I dont know what else to say.

Keith
-----

And you'll underestand...

I agree that "technique" has something to do with it and that constriction is an amazing thing. I don't even put my 5' kings around my neck area - stopped that jazz when they started getting thick. I know it doesn't take much to put someone out if you get right part of someone's neck, but still it could be over in a minute if just about any 6' plus constrictor "decided" to jump from your hands to your neck - you'd never have time to react even with your hands, at least IMO.

Plus, you just can't "unwrap" a constrictor - ask the guys who've been hit by a freakin' Retic, etc. that hit them so hard and fast they didn't even see it coming and if it hadn't been for another person, they'd be dead in a minute or less...literally. I just had a converstion with Terry Vandeventer, who told of holding a Mussurana, Clelia clelia in his hands and that it was like handcuffs and they would give it to people who would literally freak out because they couldn't get free. And a Mussurana, the Mack Daddy snake eating snake of the Americas can only get to be 8-9' I say "only" in light of the fact that if a snake of that size can disarm - sorry, couldn't resist the pun - a person then what would a 15' Python do to you in what...15 seconds? Even if you had your arms you'd be out before you could use them.

But Keith I've held at least five 7' plus Indigos and I've never seen a king that could kill a Indigo that size...plain and simple, just too much weight, jaw and overall strength. It might manage to get away but heads up I don't see it. I could be totally wrong Keith, but big Indigos like that are very impressive, very large (for NA) snakes.

NOW, having said that and something I didn't mention on the other posts, is that (and again I've talked too some professional snake guys with like 40 years experience all over th Americas about this very thing, and I respect their knowledge) alot depends on the situation and individulal snakes involved.

If a 6' Indigo (which is probably the norm for wild caught, "large" Indigos) came across a 6' Florida King in the wild (which would probably be close to the max. for it in that situation) I wouldn't put my money on either one until I saw the first 10 seconds unfold.

Why? Because what if the king - which are just as fast as Indigos from all I've ever seen when it comes to striking - got a good bite close to the head and then wrapped like a knot around it's own head area and the upper 1/3 of the Indigo? If that were to happen then the Indigo would be in trouble, however strong...like Keith said don't underestimate constriction one, and two, the tireless, very powerful constriction of a big king. In such a situation, or something close to it, and Indigo would have limited use of its powerful jaws and it would have to press down upon itself as well as the king in order to utilize its way of killing. Crushing a snake is one thing, even a larger constrictor, but crushing a specialized snake eater like a king is something altogeher different. I will say that's a king is a very strong, solid, tireless constrictor that used in the right situation would level the playing field, so to speak, between such a powerful snake like a big Indigo.

So...to me it would come down to who can stay strong longer, it seems to me, if a natural encounter of this situation occurred.

In that situation, the kingsnakes "unorthodox" way of constriction may be an advantage...they aren't always very efficient - at least from watching - looking constrictors. Sometimes they have that picture-perfect wrap, or they wrap, squeeze their prey against a surface and/or end up in some wierd ball or string of muscle that their prey just can't escape. Whatever the reason they are serenely powerful constrictors as one book once said!

Again though, a 7-8' Indigo, IMO, would kill and eat a 6-7' king 70% of the time...just the opposite of Keiths percentage. This is just my opinion though! Someone has to be wrong, and it could be me!

As far as coachwhips, I saw at least 100 of them the short (8 months) I lived in SE Florida. They are the most frequnelty seen and roadkilled snake in the area (and I use to do/maintain the roadkill surveys so I know). I've seen ones as long as 8' I know, and caught one (yes, by waiting with my snake hook for it to come out of the gophor tortoise burrow it flew into) that was ca. 6' in length and seen specimens of larger ones, and a large, adult Florida King (floridana, s.l.) would make short work of it. Coachwhips will eat smaller, less powerful constrictors like cornsnakes, but a big king...I don't see it. I rehabed a coachwhip that was over 6' and closer to 7' (it survived a car strike) and there just isn't enough size/weight/power or constriction to deal with a big king. Perhaps a coachwhip could get away from a king but a big, healthy king's not going to get killed by any coachwhip I've seen.

-John

John

Yep your wrong LOL. You are falling into the same "awe factor" that the Indigo guys do. Yes they are big yes they bite hard but what does that mean in terms of taking on a King that may be only 12" smaller ?...Nothing IMHO. Strength and power are good things to have but combine strength and power with a great killing technique and something is gonna die ! LOL. Ive held a 7' Indigo and yes it was a thick muscular snake but I have also held a 6'4" King and I have no doubts that King would have taken it to that Indigo. It was near as thick and only 8" shorter.Its not just about size John you have to remember that plus havent you been telling the ladies that for years ? LOL

Keith
-----

Keith may be onto something here.

I train in Brazilian JuiJitzu (BJJ)and with the recent UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championships-aka MMA Mised MArtial arts competions) it has been proven fighters are most effective ending the fight with some kind of submission (choke, armbar, leglock ect)this style of fighting has beaten any other style irregardless of size or human strength.

Example:
An eastern king will not "stand up and trade" striking with Indigo (Indigo = a boxer or striker/ Eastern = submission expert). The eastern king will go for the hold and then submission choke (wrapping around the Indigo...and they are the best at it) and THAT has been proven to be the king dog of the fight world.

No matter what size or strength you are submission fighting is the best method to END a fight and not size and striking like some Jet Lee-Steven Segal taikwondoodoo guys will like you to believe. I won't matter how well the Indigo chews and crushes the eastern, the eastern will not "give up" nor let go of the submission choke that it has to end the fight.
Bottom line is if you can't fight on the ground (eastern king style) you will lose if fighting someone who has a backround in submissions.

Of course the Indigo always has the "punchers chance" but if you are a betting man , the odds on favorite is the eastern king every time. The Eastern King is top dog in the no-holds barred fighting world. Uh-Huh!

Now in the professional wrestling world the Indigo might be the show off Hulk Hogan or some other poster boy. Real fighters are not big and mean looking. They are technical and experienced, medium sized, have endurance and determination......example... the Eastern king!

Kinda get the idea of what would happen to an Indigo if a Eastern would get a hold of him.

http://www.bullshido.com/videos/mmavskungfu.wmv

Nice little arm bar snap to end the fight!

A good martial artist realizes that there are advantages and disadvantages to every "style" and that technique or fighting style is only one aspect of determining who will ultimately triumph.

Experience, strength, cardiovascular conditioning, fear, ability to feel pain without coming unglued, and downright attitude and instinct (even talent) are just as important.

All of these things must be considered in order to determine the likely outcome of a physical confrontation.

Good martial artists are respectful of other techniques and never underestimate anyone.

Good martial artist realizes that there are advantages and disadvantages to every "style" and that technique or fighting style is only one aspect of determining who will ultimately triumph.

Good martial artists are respectful of other techniques and never underestimate anyone.

Good martial artist know if they go to the ground with a submissions guy their ass is handed to them.

Good Indigos share that principle.

>>Keith may be onto something here.
>>
>>I train in Brazilian JuiJitzu (BJJ)and with the recent UFC (Ultimate Fighting Championships-aka MMA Mised MArtial arts competions) it has been proven fighters are most effective ending the fight with some kind of submission (choke, armbar, leglock ect)this style of fighting has beaten any other style irregardless of size or human strength.
>>
>>Example:
>>An eastern king will not "stand up and trade" striking with Indigo (Indigo = a boxer or striker/ Eastern = submission expert). The eastern king will go for the hold and then submission choke (wrapping around the Indigo...and they are the best at it) and THAT has been proven to be the king dog of the fight world.
>>
>>No matter what size or strength you are submission fighting is the best method to END a fight and not size and striking like some Jet Lee-Steven Segal taikwondoodoo guys will like you to believe. I won't matter how well the Indigo chews and crushes the eastern, the eastern will not "give up" nor let go of the submission choke that it has to end the fight.
>>Bottom line is if you can't fight on the ground (eastern king style) you will lose if fighting someone who has a backround in submissions.
>>
>>Of course the Indigo always has the "punchers chance" but if you are a betting man , the odds on favorite is the eastern king every time. The Eastern King is top dog in the no-holds barred fighting world. Uh-Huh!
>>
>>Now in the professional wrestling world the Indigo might be the show off Hulk Hogan or some other poster boy. Real fighters are not big and mean looking. They are technical and experienced, medium sized, have endurance and determination......example... the Eastern king!
-----

I'm 5'9" and I've always been smaller than most so I naturally took to grappling and soon, Hapkido.

I saw a guy really versed in a school of Kung Fu that lasted about 30 seconds to a guy 4" and 50lbs lighter. With all the kicking and spinning and commotion I thought this guy trained in Jujistu/Hapkido, etc. was a goner...not so fast; out of the dust the Kung Fu dude was on top on one knee ready to strike when he just started screamin and fell over to one side tapping out like mad - turns out a simple wrist lock had this guy ready to cry, literally.

Every fight I've ever been in has ended up on the floor (I'm not one of those "let's go fight types at all though) - I grappled so that may have been my doing, but I can't recall seeing too many fights at all that didn't wind up on the floor, except for the one-punch/kick deals that can happen. I know that being able to wrestle saved me from getting seriously hurt a couple of times and immobilized both of these much bigger guys than me. The frustration level alone can make you choose the wrong move - and if you're on the floor with someone who knows her/his stuff, then you'll tap out or it'll be lights out most of the time.

I'm not putting down traditional MA like Shotokon, Korean Karate, etc. - that's where I first got introduced into martial arts, but at my size (I'm getting too old for this stuff now anyway!) hitting the mat as soon as I can and keeping someone close to me to avoid punches while I try to tap someone out works, while me trying to box or do a jumping kick with the same person would end up in me getting my as# kicked!

I've got to get into Hapkido - a bad as# Korean style similar to Judo, Jujistu, etc.

About Bruce Lee - I think the guy was way ahead of his time and he could easily go to the mat with people and end it, and he did.
But his movies...yeah, they're fun to watch but you can't go around believing that you can do those kind of things - even Bruce Lee himself remarked that all the training in the world won't stop a bullet; he was saying it in the context of acting bad and thinking that you could go in and kick the crap out of 5 guys at once, etc... His own style of fighting was really a precursor of ultimate/extreme fighting - that is, taking stuff from all disciplines and using it to defend yourself.

I think alot of the Dry guys like the Ulitimate fighting stuff too.

Hey...maybe kings are the Extreme Fighters of the North American snake world?!!

I also still stand by my first observation that ounce for ounce kings are king in this country; some folks say that such comparisons don't mean much, but it's a figure of speech everyone understands - basically that kings as a group of snakes are equipped at whatever age to kill any other snake of the same age/size in North America. A huge Indigo will win most of the time, but before you get to that threshold where size and power and ability are too much, kings are the toughest snakes in NA, IMO.

-John

You can't compare human fighting styles to snakes.
That's a rediculous comparison. These animals have no legs and crawl on the ground.

One point all of you are missing is the the method of killing used by indigos is extremely effective and you can't make a conclusive argument that consrtiction is better.

Contratry to "popular" opinion, indigos don't just grab and thrash. Then PIN HARD with the lower part of the body, lock on the jaw grip, and RIP.

The prey is often cervically dislocated and sometimes torn in half. They are not only more powerful than kingsnakes, they have a similarly effective technique.

PS: I'm one of those flashy taekwondo guys.

Contratry to "popular" opinion, indigos don't just grab and thrash. Then PIN HARD with the lower part of the body, lock on the jaw grip, and RIP.

Do they break boards and blocks of ice with their head to?

But they aren't doing too well. It's hard to hold their attention
when they are busy eating kingsnakes.

btw...come on...even we tkd heads know that breaking is simply a consentration and focus demonstration that gets oohs and ahhs from the genral public. It has never been said (at least by any respectable tkd people) to be more than that.

...and all the fancy jumping kick stuff goes out the window in real combat. Low kicks and stikes get the most bang for the buck without leaving you too wide open.

The fancy stuff sure is fun though.

PS: I have always had an admiration and respect for good grapplers. (I don't really care for getting my limbs broken, doesn't agree with me) I would have probably taken it up if I had the time...but...you should share a respect for strikers as well...lest you be unpleaseantly surprised by one some day...

Just like a kingsnake getting thrashed all around like, "what the hell, he can't do that I'm a CONSTRICTOR!!"

you should share a respect for strikers as well...lest you be unpleaseantly surprised by one some day...

Well I have done some kickboxing and won some toughman contests in my day so I am not completely inept at striking. I found out that if a submission guy wants to take you down you will go down. Unless you are training for MMA (which BTW striking takes on a whole new meaning when whilst trying to defend takedowns)my advice... Practice your sprawl really well or practice running really fast...better yet just run away (as the Indigo will probably do) you will have no chance against a jujitzu specialist.

I have an idea. Take the musked scent of a large eastern king and put it near your Indigo. I bet 9 out of 10 times the Indgo flees the area.

Hey there Bluerosy and fellow BJJ guy

I am into BJJ (off and on my injuries and work dictate attendance)

I have Dry's and Fla. Kings only.

Cardinal difference I know is that Dry's do two things that we do well and that is stopping circulation and the second is fighting smart, and very fast. The indigos are just so much more "with it" and intelligent than nearly any other reptile I have seen, my kings are just kind slower mentally. There are many different attacks I have watched my indigo execute, eg. sometimes bite and pull, bite around neck till opponent is out, press till smothered, bite and then hammer prey into immovable objects, grab for head and start swallowing alive, etc.
A dry's attack with the vise like jaws across the body is going to seriously stop slow down blood flow, if not stop it. When I push the collar of someones gi acroos their carotid away from me and pull down the label on the other side of the gi down, I really only knock out one carotid...but its sufficient. I was bitten by my indigo when she was only 3-3.5 feet and she crushed and cut through my hand that was unbelievable for her size. Also, the pressing attack of a dry just biting and smothering something down with its body is another pressure spot that can stop rodents breathing.
Kings for the most part, truly constrict. Both are unelegant street fighters with different styles, but, to me key factors are the intelligence, speed and intelligence of an indigo which don't seem to have been given much attention.
Saying all this, I do not know who would win, my indigo is about 4-4.5 feet now my S.Fla's both easily over five feet. My indigo probably outweighs either of them by a factor of at least three. I can honestly say they would have no chance, These are my only animals I admire them both but I respect them as filling different niches in their biomes, even when they overlap-noturnal vs diurnal, etc.
Seriouly Blue, I could care less who would win, but when you brought up BJJ I thought I had to share what I saw of them that reminded me of our style.

Obrigado!

The indigos are just so much more "with it" and intelligent than nearly any other reptile I have seen, my kings are just kind slower mentally

So if I have a Indigo with lower than average IQ and an eastern king with an above average IQ ,then what? I have noticed that intelligence levels can vary with with snakes.

I think if you have two eastern kings going agaist each other the smarter one will win (kinda like a purple belt and a brown belt)but is the lower intelligence eastern able to beat the higher intelligence of the different style fighter the Indigo is?

Well Madmatt, coming from a BJJ guy that has florida kings and Dry's I must concede with some of your knowledge on who is the better fighter.

You bring up a good point about the Indigos being a smart animal. But will this intelligence be enough to take on a constrictor with one good submission?

You mentioned the Drys being able to crush (or cut off circulation on an animal. But a florida kings guard (BJJ term for wrapping around ones opponent) is going to catch the Indigo everytime. Now if the Indigo is smart enough to pass guard (from intelligence) then maybe it can gain control long enough to set that crushing submission bite in and fish the king. But not likely!

Personally I don't think a Indigo could stop a Eastern King with its crushing bite alone. Once the eastern gets going (even facing certain death) it will not stop . This is something different and more primative than humans could conceve in a fight. Kinda like a shark. Once their minds have been made up, good luck stopping them.

Anyone who has had a constrictor has possibly made the mistake of aloowing your snake to confuse it with a prey item. Well its nearly impossible to get them off even with human hands. This happens to me on occasion with the rosy boas I keep. They have big teeth for their size and wrap around and keep tightening. You can run them under water ect and some will just never give up.The more you try and unwrap the deeper the teeth sink in and the snake just has a way of transition from one submission to another.

So with the painful and possibly mortal wound the Indigo can inflict I still don't think its enough to get the eastern to quit (unlike us humans)and the eastern would prevail.

But as far as the Dry's intelligence in a fight well it would still have to be pretty damn smart to flat out pin and eleviate any of the Easterns submission choke. Yep!

-----"So if I have a Indigo with lower than average IQ and an eastern king with an above average IQ ,then what? I have noticed that intelligence levels can vary with with snakes."

On intelligence only, imagine your smartest Downs Syndrome Kid versus your dumbest college track kid.

------I think if you have two eastern kings going agaist each other the smarter one will win (kinda like a purple belt and a brown belt)but is the lower intelligence eastern able to beat the higher intelligence of the different style fighter the Indigo is?

Not good example. More like same belt level, king just knows BJJ, Indigo is more MMA-overlaping skills.

------Well Madmatt, coming from a BJJ guy that has florida kings and Dry's I must concede with some of your knowledge on who is the better fighter.

Actually no, don't. When you responded to the other fellow about kings being dominant to Drys because of the analogy to MMA/BJJ my main purpose was to bring more breadth to discussion by showing 1)drys have more tricks than had been discussed so far and 2)Drys are "grapplers" too, maybe better to say MMA.
I am just trying to add understanding to both animals and allow you more of a window to begin to get a picture about drys, which you don't seem to have much experience with. You watch ultimate, boxers win sometimes, regular ol' collegiate wrestlers even.

----You bring up a good point about the Indigos being a smart animal. But will this intelligence be enough to take on a constrictor with one good submission?

You've seen better fighters lose in torneys because of really petty mistakes or even bad luck? slips, gi caught around something not supposed to, etc. Any given match with as many hypothetical factors controlled for can yield unexpected nuances.

------You mentioned the Drys being able to crush (or cut off circulation on an animal. But a florida kings guard (BJJ term for wrapping around ones opponent) is going to catch the Indigo everytime. Now if the Indigo is smart enough to pass guard (from intelligence) then maybe it can gain control long enough to set that crushing submission bite in and fish the king. But not likely!

OK, What happens if you are in process of placing me in guard while I have your head in a real tight guillotine? Or, in the snakes case, placing his coils around an animal that is decapitating him or least breaking his neck? They do this to rats, lots of bones are obviously broken where they clamp down.

-----Personally I don't think a Indigo could stop a Eastern King with its crushing bite alone.
Especially if an indigo bite has never been felt! I've had mistaken feeding responses of FLA's and indigos on my hands. That experince paints a much, much different picture.

-----Once the eastern gets going (even facing certain death) it will not stop . This is something different and more primative than humans could conceve in a fight. Kinda like a shark. Once their minds have been made up, good luck stopping them.

Great point! I would say their circulation systems and being cold blooded allow for muted effects of constriction and blood loss in either case. This opens up new doors entirely! Also, being cold blooded and different species, I think they have different optimum operating temperatures, even though all my animals have ranges that are shared!

------Anyone who has had a constrictor has possibly made the mistake of aloowing your snake to confuse it with a prey item. Well its nearly impossible to get them off even with human hands. This happens to me on occasion with the rosy boas I keep. They have big teeth for their size and wrap around and keep tightening. You can run them under water ect and some will just never give up.The more you try and unwrap the deeper the teeth sink in and the snake just has a way of transition from one submission to another.

See above

-----So with the painful and possibly mortal wound the Indigo can inflict I still don't think its enough to get the eastern to quit (unlike us humans)and the eastern would prevail.

True, I think the Indigo has a better sense of when to cut its losses due to its intelligence.

Near decapitation or broken necks can give a snake a bad day!

-----But as far as the Dry's intelligence in a fight well it would still have to be pretty damn smart to flat out pin and eleviate any of the Easterns submission choke. Yep!

Believe it or not, I think it would be a coin-toss of lots of other factors, the BJJ advantage of kings is mute becasue they are both pronbe to use BJJ techniques, but I hope you realize as much as I can talk, it is really nothing compared to getting a mistaken feeding response from indigo or other dry. Ask a friend to help you out and this is the best way for you to settle the issue in your mind. Your thinking makes sense but so does that of typical people we meet on the street-"Oh, I am bigger than him that BJJ can't compensate a three inch difference in height and my outweighing him by forty pounds!" They would give us a lot of fun, the MMA is ust theoretical to them because they can't imagine it. Can't blame them and if I took everyone up on the their ignorance I would be in jail.
Matt

Hey Matt and other who have mentioned Indigo's being a highly intelligent snake how do you measure their smarts ? Flash cards ? Spelling Bee ? Is there any scientific proof they are smarter than Kings ? Has someone run them through mazes ? Talking about instinct is one thing but I hate when folks try an attribute intelligence to animals when really its all about eat eat eat eat eat bred breed breed breed sleep sleep sleep 'repeat' . If you are gonna make a claim of intelligence back it up please.

Keith
-----

---"I hate when folks try an attribute intelligence to animals when really its all about eat eat eat eat eat bred breed breed breed sleep sleep sleep 'repeat'"

Yes, but my kingsnakes have to wear harnesses to keep from attacking themselves. And also, they don't say "Yes please I would like a rat, thank you" when its feeding time! But mom says, when they are hungry enough, this nonsense will stop-and sure enough it has!

On this level, isn't this what every vertebrate does in the animal kingdom, even humans--sludge generation? Are their any differences in intelligence among members in the animal kingdom after literacy is taken away? Intelligence is a difficult term to throw out because it can be so vague.
If you were zapped into a snake with your mind intact,how would you exhibit intelligence? Would you talk like my reluctant sp. ed. kingsnakes only when hungry? In people are deaf mutes dumb too?

More work for you. My kingsnakes if coaxed properly, will help you word your response, but again, tact with them is not only helpful, but required.

Intelligence in drys mainly observable by watching their reactions when confronted with challenges.
When allowed to roam freely under supervision for exercise, minor barriers, places where two foreign scents may converge, all seem to bring out quick twitches in head movements, start stops-when they make a decision to go certain directions, then change direction abruptly.
The ability to "remember" certain places she may be placed for exercise and avoid areas she didn't have a great deal of fun exploring before, etc.
Then there is the diversity of attacks depending on prey, its size, and degree of movement(I feed stunned-but the nervous reactions are sometimes strong and she will choose different methods of attack.)
Kind of like cobras or mambas if you are familiar.

I think I may try that.

I think the same would apply in reverse.

The animals are probably a little smarter than we give credit in taking a meal that's not as likely to give them trouble.

...the same reason large predatory mammals look for the old, young an weak. They don't get a second chance when they are injured by prey.

btw, I don't want to get into a deep conversation about martial arts here...the point was merely that technique is only one of many elements involved in combat. As an experienced fighter I'd have a hard time believing you'd disagree with that. Funny how many herp people are into martial arts though. It's always amazes me. The interests tend to co-incide

and got my five foot texas indigo and my five foot eastern king and stuck them both in a neutral cage. When they both met in the middle...the indigo hauled but one direction and the king the other. Hummm...pretty smakrt animals. Both will see another day to eat!!!!

That's probably exactly what would happen if 2 similar size specimens met in the wild.

Fact is indigos are usually bigger.

and...SIZE
DOES
MATTER...