Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It's no secret that serious venomous keepers often look down on the antics of some well known television personalities when it comes to the handling of hots...i'm just wondering who you guys think is the most irresponsible when it comes to this. I personally would say Steve Irwin. I've never cringed at anybody like I have at him. Jeff Corwin hasn't taken too many unneccessary risks that I've seen, and is usually pretty good about using the minimum amount of hands on, and when he does do hands on, he safely restrains the snake with a secure headgrip. I've seen Steve Irwin do some incredibly stupid things with hots. He seems to play to the camera more than anyone else. Rob Bredl also appears to be rather careless sometimes, but not like Irwin. As for Nigel Marvin, I haven't really seen him handle too many hots, so I can't judge. And Mark O'Shea is pretty decent with his handling skills, and doesn't take TOO many risks. But Irwin is the worst in my opinion. Also, animal planet has a new guy, some Austin Stevens, a photographer, and he is pretty liberal in his handling skills. A matter of fact, he's the only one I've seen get tagged on TV! He was teasing a Snouted Cobra (Naja annulifera) so he could get a good shot, and talking about how it was bluffing it's strikes, and then wham, his face goes white, and he remarks "I've just been bitten". Off to the hospital 45 min. away he goes, in the middle of Africa. You find out at the end of the show (the show was about his 7 top choices for deadliest snake in Africa), that he was actually tagged TWICE during his 12 week adventure, i don't know what the first snake that bit him was as I missed the first 20 min. of his show...Even after his bite by the cobra, he still had no qualms jumping into a river and dragging a 5 ft. gaboon back onshore with his bare hands and WELL within the strike radius of the gaboon. Lucky for him, it just wanted to get away, and was cooperative, but the risk he took was monumental. Okay, enough of my jabbering, you guys give your opinions.

Call me crazy but I don't think Irwin is that bad. I find it interesting that you can dislike him so much and say Bredl isn't as bad as him. I've yet to see Irwin freehandling a snake that is known to bite people (collett's) like it was a kingsnake. Irwin did free handle some yellow lipped sea braits (or banded sea kraits if you prefer), but they are known to be incredibly docile. Can't say I'd do the same though. I don't really like seeing Corwin always restrain just about every venomous snake he encounters by the head. After all, with captively kept venomous snakes, who gets bitten most often? The venom producers. Why? Well, a lot has to do with the fact that they often handle far more snakes than any other keepers, but also they are always having to restrain the business end. I personally am not comfortably restraining a viperid or even strong elapid by the head. There is just far too much room for error there. I would rather hook and tail them, or hook and tong them, etc, than have to do that. Also, from the snake's standpoint, I can imagine that the way Irwin handles is much less stressful compared to the way Corwin handles. I can't comment much on Marvin as I haven't watched him enough, and O'Shea seems to handle a bit too roughly and get bitten too often for me to say anything nice about, so I won't say anything at all.

As for that crazy European or South African guy on Animal Planet...well, he's pretty self-explanatory. At the beginning of the show he received a supposedly dry bite from a sand viper of some species. Then the Egyptian nailed him. The rink even came close to nailing him on more than one occasion. I must admit, that was one of the only shows I've watched that I was actually rooting for the snakes to tag the guy. I did rather enjoy seeing him just trying to tick off that boomslang and having absolutely no luck. It just goes to show how docile they can be (much like mine are). Though in the same thought, again, I would have liked to see it bite him. There are just some people out there that natural selection should have picked off long ago. He seems to be defying plain logic by making it this far.

In the end though, whether it be Irwin, Corwin, O'Shea, Marvin, or whomever, it's all about ratings and thrilling the audience. They wouldn't be around if they didn't make the audience go "ohhh ahhh" occasionally. Who do you think the vast majority of the people that make up their audiences are? Avid herpers? Laypeople? I'm willing to bet money on the latter. And for people who really just don't know much about snakes or herps in general, they are more inclined to want to see the host take stupid risks. That's why shows like Fear Factor and World's Wildest and Craziest Police Chases Involving Drunken Nude CoEds (vol. 45) are so popular. Our society is all about the danger aspect (and nude CoEds), as long as it doesn't involve us personally. I will continue to watch Irwin and enjoy it, because he deals the most with the snakes I am most interested in. I would watch Bredl more often...but unfortunately Dish Network doesn't feel very inclined to add the Natl Geo channel to the list.
-Chance

Chance,

The reason for my feelings about irwin are simple: he (in my opinion) puts himself at risk for the sake of exposure more than anyone else. I have seen him freehandle rattlers, cobras, and mambas. I saw a preview for a new episode where he is letting a small rattler (forget what sp.) sit in the palm of his hand, with his face only a few inches away. I understand cameras can distort the view and his face may not have been that close, but the snake was still in an agitated (rattling) state in the palm of his hand. The whole time he was saying, and visibly shaking as he did, "I'm very nervous right now..."...okay, then why are you doing that? Second, at least Bredl, O'Shea, Corwin, and even Austin Stevens (I'll get to him later) USE TOOLS! I have yet to see Irwin with a snake hook in his hand. Nevermind tongs or anything. Corwin always has a hook with him, and yes, i agree he does hand-restrain hots a bit too often, but i still respect him more than Irwin. To his credit though, Irwin has not been bitten (at least not that was made publically) by a venomous snake. I'm not saying he's not skilled, seeing him tailing an 8ft black mamba with no tools in sight was certainly impressive, but it was also plain stupid.

Now onto Stevens:

Well, he's relatively new to TV (that I know of), but he's already made his mark as a fool only 3 or 4 episodes in. Getting tagged not once, but twice in the span of time he did is ridiculous. My favorite quote (right after getting tagged by the cobra, and while he was in a hospital bed), "No more, can't take anymore chances, i'm too old for this"...low and behold next segnent he's diving after a large gaboon, giving no respect for the animal or it's very lethal capabilities...he was WELL within strike range of that animal THE ENTIRE TIME. I've seen Irwin handle puffs in a similar fashion, having no regard for the animals insane strike capabilites. Really, it does show how uninclined most snakes are to bite...contrary to some people thinking they want to bite everyone and their mothers...unfortunantly, I'm sure some yahoo will go and become "The Rattlesnake Hunter" after watching Irwin and go get tagged by a rattler that he saw Irwin freehandle. It can also breed complancency in not so smart keepers who saw Stevens caress a docile wild gaboon, and figured their captive "pets" would behave the same. Anyway, just my $.02...

The snake in Erwins hand was a Pygmy Rattler.
And THAT was the episode where he also stated "I'm putting myself at risk, I could easilly get bit at any moment, and if I do, that is my mistake, I am at fualt, not the snake. I am fully accept the consequences for my actions." Or something along those lines. He was totally aware that he was being careless with the snake. But he also was being responsable by taking acknowledgment of that and being ready for the fact that that snake could have and probably SHOULD have bit him. He was damn lucky it didnt. As I have seen more docile baby rattlers being handled the exact same way and biting the person holding it for no reason. And THEY WERENT EVEN SHAKING! But, THEY were being irresponsable in the fact that they were drunk! Steve may not use tools, but that is his choice. As long as he's prepared to face the consequences if and when he gets bit. For the longeest time I didnt use snake sticks either. However, I would grab a nearby stick or branch instead. Also, I stick my hand in with my Great Basin all the time when I go to take a baby rat out that she didnt want to eat, or change her water. I am putting myself at risk EVERY TIME I do that. Especially since my hand is only inches away from the snake! I put alot of trust in body language, but that does not always work. So I know that even if I THINK she is being docile and doesnt mind my presence that she CAN bite me at any time. And I am fully ready to accept the concequences for that.
Again, I think irresponsability only goes to the people who think they WONT get bit or are too good to get bit. Those are the ones I laugh at when it finally does happen.
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http://photos.yahoo.com/gwas79
"The Critters"

Yep Irwin IS the crocodile clown.

Hey you notice that the three people who handle responsibly on their shows (Marvin, Corwin, and O'Shea) are all professional herpetologists. Irwin is just a self taught hick and the south african guy is only a photographer. I figure you can see that the herpetologist truly love their job, because they treat their venomous snakes with the respect they reserve. Just my ovservations.
-Doc Rojas
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Swift, Silent, Dealy

How awful!!
I think that the most of us areSELF TAUGHT
Not everyone that has or handles venemous reptiles is a herptologist. Most are just average every day joe's that love reptiles, including the venemous ones.
And as for a hic....is that fair for anyone to say? Doesn't sound very mature to me.
Responsability begins with "ACCEPTANCE" OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR OWN ACTIONS
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Just Hatched, growing fast!
Http://www.Nifty-Critters.com

I agree that there is nothing wrong with being self taught if it is done in a cautious manner. Unfortunately the majority of his captures are neither cautious nor professional(Although I will admit they are exciting).
The problem with Steve Irwin is he has taken himself too seriously due to his fame. Both he and his wife typically make at least one statement during each episode that falls along the lines of "Steve is the only person qualified to do this". His show has become such a shadow of its former self that I have given up on watching it.
I personally feel somewhat disappointed that the main player in the tv arena has become so popular because of the risks that he takes. His free handling of venomous snakes and staged animals often leads those who are not familiar with how the show is produced to believe that he has some supernatural power over these animals when in fact his antics border somwhere between parlor tricks and just plain deception.
Jackie

Frankly, I absolutely admire his passion, and the fact that he's putting his fame to use by sinking the money back into the zoo, and continuing to do hands-on reptile rescue in Australia. He is not a hypocrite, and that's a rare thing in show biz today.

I'm less impressed with the fellows who pin and restrain venomous snakes for the camera, it does have to be much more stressful on the animals, even if it is (questionably) safer for the host.

he first snake that bit Austin Stevens was a sand viper(I don't remember the exact species). If you had seen the beginning of the show, you probably would have thought him to be worse than Steve Irwin. In the first couple minutes of the show, he said "I have the utmost respect for these animals and I ensure that I will not be bitten". 2 bites out of 7 snakes within 2 weeks isn't the best way to demonstrate respect.

I saw Austin Stevens. If you go looking for venomous snakes and want to go handling them, then say something like "I ensure I will not be bitten" You are already being irresponsable.
Snake bites can happen to anyone. No matter how safe YOu think you are being. And to say it will not happen...is being totally irresponsable right there. Steve Erwin, Jeff Corwin, Mark O'shea
HAvent seen Nasty Nigel handle them b4. But those others as far as I've seen and heard they KNOW that they could be bitten at any time just due to them being near the snakes. They emphazise...Never try this, this is dangerous, I'm putting myself at risk and I know that. Therefor, they get bit, they are responsable for that happening and they know that. Responsable to me is not neccesarilly handling the snake with the safest methods. It is knowing that if you do get bit it is YOUR fault. Knowing it CAN happen to anyone. And being able to accept the responsabilty and the fact it is your fault. A responsalble handler is ready for the consequences of handling the snake no matter how he chooses to do it.
PS. I love Steve Erwin. What an awsome lively spirit he has!
Jeffs getting better. Didnt like him at first. But he's slowly growing on me.
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http://photos.yahoo.com/gwas79
"The Critters"

That was not a wild gaboon...... That was clearly a captive West African gaboon viper...... How do you catch a wild West African gaboon in East Africa?????LOL...... Not that it makes his actions any more safe....... That guy is a joke...... I do not see that big a problem with Irwin or Corwin..... Marvin is good...... I cant stand O'shea and that idiot Brady Barr...... Barr is as dumb as a rock...... And O'shea is just too rough with the reptiles he captures...... But I do like the fact that he does not stage his animals...... Thats why he hardly ever finds what he is looking for.....LOL......

at least barr is careful the only wise peaple who know what there doing are the peaple on snake wranglers dr.fry and dr.willims for example.

I wasn't paying much attention to the snake, to busy in awe of that jackass's stupidity, but thanks for the correction, come to think about it, that snake did look awefully purty for a wild animal,

"Thats why he hardly ever finds what he is looking for"
LOL LOL
and possibly why he always sulks and gets into "I want to catch it" squabbles with the local herpetologists

O'SHea did get tagged by a Stiletto on one of his shows.

Is that the one with the fangs set sideways? Where the snake whipped it's head and tagged him and his hand swelled up and turned black? I think O'Shea is the worst.
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1.1 Ball Python 0.0.1 corn snake 1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish 1.2 cats 3.1 kids 1.0 husband and now...
0.0.1 Pink Zebra Beauty Tarantula
2.0 Solomon Island Boas

Yes, stillettos are members of the Atractaspids, and are the only group of snakes where a secure headgrip is impossible. They can slide their fangs out without opening their mouth, and then they jerk back, catching you with their fangs. If O'shea was working one, he should have been really careful with it...

If I remember correctly, he misidentified it initially, so the "bite" came as quite a surprise. His hand looked none too good. It was educational, in a "this is what happens when you don't know what you're doing" way.
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1.1 Ball Python 0.0.1 corn snake 1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish 1.2 cats 3.1 kids 1.0 husband and now...
0.0.1 Pink Zebra Beauty Tarantula
2.0 Solomon Island Boas

Kakai:
I hope your husband is 1.0 LOL!

He misidentified the snake and grabbed it.

Although I guess he shouldn't have been grabbing unidentified snakes on the road in bad light in the stiletto's range, they ARE pretty hard to identify. There are probably all sorts of tiny brown-black snakes in Africa. If I remember correctly, he even grabbed it behind the head, unfortunately that doesn't do any good with these guys.
I do think he set a bad example by leaving the hospital early.

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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

I personally think O'Shea is the best show out there. The vast majority of his shows revolve around trying to collect scientific data instead of just finding and handling dangerous animals for no reason other than shock value.
In my mind this makes him considerably more responsible even though he has been bitten several times. Unfortunately serious fieldwork involves risks and he has paid that price many times over to further the knowledge/understanding of the animals that we all love so much.
I strongly believe that because his approach is considerably more professional than the others, Animal Planet does not promote his show as much as they should. Lets face it the average Joe WANTS to see some fruitloop dancing around with a potentially deadly animal instead of seeing the reality of field study which often means failure to find what one is looking for.
Jackie Lapradd

100% agreed, Jackie. People seem to forget that O'Shea's snakes are wild, not borrowed from zoos, which in my book necessitates
a firmer approach than handling a captive one. Far less of a "shockmeister" than Irwin or Stevens.
Sincerely,
Bill Huseth

I would like to know how many of the people on this forum think that Irwin, Corwin and the rest of them actually find wild collected snakes? Or use captive animals? I do know people that have placed the snakes (myself included for one of them,friends for another)
Or does everyone think that they are really out there catching these animals in the wild?
I don't know much about O'sheas shows as I have watched very little of them, so exclude him.
Terry
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

Most of us know and aggree, the snakes are staged in these shows...... If they were'nt, they would all look like O'shaes show...... His show is what true field study is really like....... Too bad he is so rough with the reptiles he catches....... Exery time he catches a snake it looks like its head is going to pop off while he is restraining it....... It is obvious that they stage them in most of the shows but some are much less obvious than others......
Gregg

My father sold reptiles to In The Wild with Marty Stauffer,back in the 70s and 80s

Irwin sort of semi-stages most of the time, I think--he finds the animal, THEN he has the cameras roll. Sometimes he moves to a better filming area first, sometimes not.

He also works with captive snakes as well.

I never laughed so hard.... on one episode where they were in America, Terry Irwin 'found' some sort of colubrid (either a corn or a pine, can't remember) sitting nicely on a branch in the open. She got it down sort of tentatively and commented how strange it was that it was docile. That was so faked that I could almost see the guy with a pillowcase standing off camera.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

...during the rattler special. Supposedly he spotted two male C.atrox from a freaken helicopter!! Yeah right!

Also, I know of a guy whom lent Steve a bunch of C.horridus for the rattler special. If you have ever seen the one where he was up in the Shanandoa Moutians of Virgina with about 5 horridus between his legs, those are the snakes.

Personaly I cant stand Corwin! The man should not be allowed around snakes!! He nearly beheaded 2 Yellow Lipped Sea kraits, a species which both Steve and Mark have free handled because of their legendary docile nature. I understand wanting to be safe and all but he was shakeing in fear!!! Not a good trait for a venomous snake handler. Then there was the time he found a O.hannah. It was about 10 ft away from him and made quick charge. He nearly soiled himself!!!! Geez!!!

Personaly I think the best snake show host are the ones from National Geographics show, "Snake Wranglers". BGF, David Willian, Brian Bush, Zoltan, Rom Whitiker and more! Some of the most respected people in this hobby. Ill watch that show over a Stevo rerun anyday.

BTW, rumor has it that one of the best Snake Wranglers episodes is schedualed to be released this month! Stay tuned! (a person who shall remain nameless for the time being owes me big for the plug:-D)

Adios,
J

It kind of rubs me the wrong way, seeing so many people on TV getting struck at by snakes. It will probably lead to the public growing more fearful of all snakes in general, and becoming less supportive of herpers who keep something as harmless as, say, a ball python. But then again, if people see how dangerous snakes can be, on TV, maybe it'll cause them to avoid contact with wild snakes and therefore prevent further macho-snake-handler-wannabee bites?
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"One man's pet is another man's feeder."

I think Corwin and Erwins "Fruitloop" personalities are great.
They get more people watching and becoming interested. Where as someone just happening upon a O'shea show might just keep surfing the channels, the others are eye catching. Then in that respect they keep the people watching the show and learning about theese reptiles and hopefully create one less reptile killer. And give that person a whole new outlook on the animals.
Educating thru insanity. The best way to go I say!
P.S. RESPONSABILITY BEGINS WITH ACCEPTING THE CONSEQUENCES THAT CAN COME OF YOUR ACTIONS!
Website

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Just Hatched, growing fast!
Http://www.Nifty-Critters.com

Zoolady,

You've stated numerous times that acceptance of risk is "responsibility", at least pertaining to venomous snake keeping. That's partially true.

Accepting that a venomous snake can be a potential danger to me or my family is one thing. But it means nothing if I don't ensure to do EVERYTHING possible to keep the snake from harming me or my family. Plenty of idiots know that their husbandry (or field practices) are putting themeselves or others in danger, but some only go this far! They know the possible outcome, but they do very little or nothing to prevent it!!!!!!!! That's not responsibility, that's plain stupidity. I can sympathize to the poor fellow who doesn't recognize the copperhead in the field and accidently picks it up and gets tagged...I have no sympathy for the idiot WHO KNOWS IT'S A COPPERHEAD, but still insists on picking it up and showing it off, whether to a friend OR to the camera. Now, with a hook, this is a lot safer, and I have no qualms, but I see Irwin freehanding plenty of snakes far more dangerous than a copperhead. No matter how many disclaimers he gives saying not to copy him, there are very impressionable people out there who will copy him. Why not present the snake in a safe manner, the educational value is still the same, the snake is safer(being grabbed by a large animal, and dangled from the tail and shaken, etc. is probably quite stressful)...the only thing that diminishes is the shock value, which brings me to the point, which is that ALL THESE GUYS DO IT FOR THE SHOCK VALUE! Seeing a person methodically and safely maneuver a snake is far less exciting to most people than seeing a person grab the snake, dodge it's strikes, tease it into striking, etc...

AP

I'd definitely prefer to have someone getting their "whole new outlook" from O'Shea rather than Irwin.
Bill Huseth

I like Mark O'Shea the best for the air of authenticity to the show and (usually) more specific information. I enjoy his professional approach and I would prefer to be in the field with him over any of the other personalities.

I like Jeff Corwin next and for similar reasons, but primarily because he is so entertaining. He'd be a lot of fun to go herping with.

Irwin's antics have always disturbed me and I find most of the information presented on his shows to be redundant and useless. Each episode usually presents nothing new. If I were in the field with him I would probably end up shooting him eventually.

Brady Barr just doesn't have the personality to host his own show in my opinion.

Austin Stevens is a fly by night nut who should be out of the lime light soon enough and/or dead from envemomation. I'd be terrified to get anywhere near him if I met him in the field.

Nigel bores me.

I became disgusted with Nigel after that farce of a "King of the Jungle" contest. I watched three of the shows: the first one, one in the middle, and the finale. Watching the first episode, and seeing Nigel's "elevator eyes", I said "He's gonna give the win to that blond cheerleader."

Halfway through, I saw Kelly literally FREAK OUT over a copperhead in camp. Come ON, Miss Thing! I'd have bounced her out just over that - if she couldn't handle that kind of surprise in the semi-controlled environment of the show, surrounded by experienced herpetologists, how on earth did Nigel think she was going to handle the Real World? What I did see was more of Nigel leering at her.

Then comes the final episode. Who got it? Kelly the Cheerleader. It was obvious from the start that Nigel "liked" Kelly, and all the other better-qualified candidates didn't stand a change against her womanly charms.

I wonder which Cute Young Blond Thing is going to win the next season?

Well.....Steve Irwin DOES play the camera, but he's never been bitten by a venomous snake. Because of that, I can't say he's irresponsible at all.
Some of the folks who are more noticeably careful, who haven't taken those apparent risks, HAVE been bitten...
My actual feeling is that Steve Irwin is just that good--he's so good at what he does, that what looks like a substantial risk is actually less of one than it appears, because he's reading the animals' body language so well.

The Irwins take more risks with their crocodilians than with any other animals--as I understand it, the elder Irwin was actually thrown clear across the enclosure by one of the crocodiles, one time--just grabbed him and threw him.