Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I love the Mojave, and from the first time I saw it I had to have one. Well as the story goes I worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for 6 months and we got one. Last year we were fortunate enough to produce and sell them. What I want to know is what do you think about it, and what do you think a Super Mojave will look like if one is produced? There's so much specualtion out there, but I just wanted to know what everybody thinks.

Thanks,

Debra
Camlon Reptiles

The females are way overpriced compared to the males. How can you justify asking $15k for a female and $10k for a male? Males can be bred earlier, produce more clutches, etc. and should be more expensive than females.

I think $9k - $10k is reasonable for males, females should be $5k max.

from what i believe the female mojave would be needed for super mojaves is they prove out, and in the same way a female pastel goes for more than a male, so would the mojave female.

as for asking people how they can justify their asking prices, i think this is absurd, who are you to ask that?, breeders need to protect the investments of all the people who have bought into the mojave projects, there is also the issue of supply and demand. with that same mentality i think it is absurd to ask the price for a ferrari i think they should be $500 as that fits into my price range much better

Debra asked what people thought about mojaves. She asked for people's opinions and I gave mine. I do not think I am anyone other than someone who expressed their opinion, just as you did.

n/p

Pure speculation but I'm guessing that the homozygous Mojave might be a blue eyed leucistic with a faint yellow stripe. I believe this animal will look a lot like a super phantom and a super lesser platy. I THINK that those three genes MIGHT all be alleles - slightly different mutations of the same gene if not out right the same gene all together (I think platy daddy might have a 2nd hypomelanistic mutation on top of lesser platy). Perhaps any cross involving phantom, lesser platy, or Mojave could create leucistics.

Again, this is pure speculation. However, I think the sudden jump in the price of mojaves this summer was the result of others thinking the same thing (doesn't make it so though). With any possible co dominant (as opposed to proven completely dominant) mutation once you have one pair the quickest way to increase the number of supers you can produce is to add more females hence there is a higher demand for them. If Mojave isn’t proven co-dominant with a spectacular super soon then females will fall to be lower priced than males as I believe is the case with the suspected completely dominant spider mutation.

Anyone care to fess up as to if any eggs from Mojave X Mojave have been hatched yet and what the outcome was? With small clutches a super could easily be missed but eventually enough will be produced that one will be expected and missed if not yet seen.

Just to set the record straight again. We have NEVER had eggs from a Mojave female to this date. We are still working on a mojave to mojave cross. Believe me soon as we have anything we will let everyone know. Even if there are only a couple eggs or 12 eggs we will let you know. As you can guess we will have them hatching live on the ballCam for everyone to see. Our season is running late so do not expect anything till at tleast Summer.

Dan

What did produce the Ivory?

Debra

Just a guess :-P

I wasn't accusing anyone. I just had hoped that you or Morph King would have got some last year. No one really owes the public in-depth info on his or her breeding projects but I know I sure appreciate it when it is given. Heck, if I had enough info on other people’s interesting projects I wouldn’t need to breed any animals of my own

Until its proven that there's NO super (not likely), females will always be more expensive. When Spiders drop in price (hopefully not too soon) its the females that will end up being more expensive. Same with Pieds, Albinos, already with Pastels, and already with all the hets.

Now why is that? Demand. Joe-blow needs ONE male of each morph in his collection to produce "X" amount of animals and combos. But females? Well skies the limit. Having 2 male Pastels and one female Pastel is only every going to yeild ONE clutch. Add another male and how many clutches? Oh that's right, STILL one clutch. So if every Joe-Blow breeder needs more females than males to make combos and morphs, then wouldn't it stand to reason that females are more in demand, and thus more valuable?

Indeedy do.
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I totally dissagree.

The only reason Pastel females are more expensive is because there is a super form of Pastels. You need to breed a Pastel x Pastel to get a super, so you NEED a female Pastel. With Spiders, there is no visible super Spider, so a female is not needed in a breeding project to produce Spiders. You can buy one $12K male Spider, and 5 normal females and produce 5 Spider clutches. Why waste money on a female spider, and get only one clutch from her. Money wise, it makes no sense. A female Mojave will be expensive only until the time we know if there is a super. If yes, then the female Mojave will stay expensive, if no, then like the Spider female, there will be no monetary reason to buy a female, and the price will drop significantly.

You can breed a male het pied to a million females, why are female het pieds 3x more?

DEMAND. Like I said.

I never said female Spiders were more. I said they will be. When everyone has their male Spider and Spider prices drop to that of Pastels (current), then females will be way more important. Bumblebees, killer-bees, etc etc go through female spiders (as well as males, but female spiders will be worth more).

A het Pied female is more expensive for one reason, you need a female to produce Pieds, and a het female is the cheapest way, but they are still expensive because you NEED them. If there are no supers, a female Spider, Mojave and any other dom female will be virtually useless, monetarily speaking.

given that i have never had the opportunity to see a mojave in the flesh, i admit from the pictures i would never have thought of spending 10-15k on one, but after seeing some of your pictures, i definitly think i will be picking up some this season (knowing my luck a super mojave will be produced and every mojave will get snapped up )

When you breed to Mojave together and the offspring inherits this gene from both parents it will cancel out each other because the mutated gene cannot be present on the same allele. That’s how you get leusistic... same as the rest...

Are you saying that the super mojave is a leucistic?

That's what I'm looking for what does everybody think of it, and what does everybody think a Super Mojave will look like?

Debra

I think a better way to ask the questions is as follows. Since Mojave is a heterozygous form of a dominant trait will the homozygous form look different? And, how will it look?

If so this animal will be called a "Super Mojave" and be described commonly as a "co-dominant" trait.

It has absolutely nothing to do with your approach quoted here:

"the offspring inherits this gene from both parents it will cancel out each other because the mutated gene cannot be present on the same allele. That’s how you get leusistic... same as the rest..."

This stated concept is irrational. If I take two albino and breed them together we don't somehow "get a leusistic... same as the rest..."
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NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS
ANGELES

Sorry I meant to say "same as all the other leucistic"... you know what I meant. Don't get mad because I am telling the secret.

I think Twest was referring to an idea that I think was posted by Robin of Pro Exotics a while back. The idea was something along the lines that Ralph Davis' leucistics might be some sort of blank default of combining the phantom and lesser platy genes. That leucistic might be caused by some sort of interference between the two genes causing a total failure of the pattern and/or color mechanism.

It is a very interesting idea and I don't know enough about genetics to say if there is precedence for this kind of thing. The test will be if the RDR animals breed true to each other. If it takes a combination of different mutant genes to create these leucistic then these first ones are double hets and breeding them together should eventually produce some non leucistic offspring that don't have one or either mutant genes.

Personally I don't think this is likely, I think they will breed true because I believe that phantom and lesser platy (and perhaps even Mojave) are mutations of the same gene (perhaps alleles, different mutations of the same gene, maybe even individual variation in the exact same mutation, hard to prove one way or the other) so none of the leucistics has a normal copy of that gene. Again, total speculation unfounded in advanced genetic knowledge or experience. Will be fun to see. Hopefully we'll see results from mojave X mojave this year and hopefully also lesser platy X lesser platy, phantom X phantom, and maybe even Mojave X lesser platy. These could go a long way to clarifying the situation.

isnt what we are reffering to as co-dominance really incomplete dominance? if im rong...dont shoot me. lol. im in biology (im only 16 ) and were just going over genetics. co-dominance is like the balck and white cows. spots of black here and there. incomplete dominance is like a pink rose. you cross the red with the white and ya got pink. so, since the mojave pattern isnt just in spot here and there, wouldnt the gene be incomplete dominance?

Let's look at the Super Pastel gene for instance...

If you think about it, a Pastel Jungle (aka Het. Super) is the intermediate form in appearance between a Super Pastel and a Normal (wild-type.) Therefore I think that Co-Dominance more aptly described the Super Pastel Gene.

I believe the scientific explanation is that Incomplete Dominance is :

Red Flower x White Flower = Red Flower with White Spots

Co-Dominance :

Red Flower x White Flower = Pink Flower

Super Pastel x Normal = Pastel (An intermediate between the two)

Just another perspective...

Also remember... Super Pastel Jungle is the ONLY CO-DOMINANT gene thus far to be consistently produced and survive!!!

LATER!
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

You have it backwards.

Incomplete dominance:
Red Flower X White Flower = Pink Flower
or
Super Pastel X Normal = Pastel

Codominance:
Red Flower X White Flower = Red and White Striped/Spotted Flower

Another example of Codominance that's frequently used is blood type. Both A and B blood types are codominant with each other because both can be expressed in an AB form. So in the end, the Mikester is right.

Jake

You have completely confused your examples for codominant and incomplete dominant. The example you gave for codominance is actually an example of incomplete dominance. The example you gave for incomplete dominance is actually an example of codominance.

There is much confusion about these terms in the reptile industry. The majority of people who come to this forum do not profess any expertise in genetics, but they are curious. As a breeder, I think you should exercise more care and learn more about this subject before you contribute further to the confusion that already exists.

I have NO idea what I was thinking when I wrote that this morning. I certainly apologize for mixing up the two terms...

I was NOT saying that Mikester was wrong but I was saying that the Super Pastel Jungle gene is an INCOMPLETE DOMINANT Mutation...

Again, I apologize for the confusion as I was completely backwards with what was written. If you refer to the "Genetics Lab" portion of our website it makes it clear that I DO understand the dominant/co-dominant/inc-dominant terminology.

This doesn't excuse my obvious clarical error in my post but I think that the context of your post was UNCALLED FOR!

Thank you,

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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

You're exactly right. Everyone uses the term incorrectly. I don't know how this all got started, but pastels are incompletely dominant. You just have to keep telling yourself that everyone means incompletely dominant when when the say codominant. If you want an example of codominanct genetics in snakes, look at the granite and green forms of burmese python--they're codominant when both forms are recessive.

Jake

Are you saying that green and granite are co-dominant to each other or that each is a separate co-dominant to normal gene? Has double homozygous green granite been made yet?

I've heard that some hets show (leopard and puzzle respectively) but I thought that there were some completely normal hets so each morph sometimes behaves as co-dominant and sometimes as recessive. This would be a classic example of sporadically visible hets in a “recessive” mutation. I have no explanation as to why hets would sometimes show and sometimes not or a feel for how often they do show and if certain lines are more likely to show.

I don’t get too hung up on textbook nomenclature. For one thing, it probably changes all the time. As long as we are close to right and we all agree as to how we use the term in this industry I figure it’s all good.

Double homozygous green/granite burms have been produced. They look like a green burm with scattered areas of granite patterning. Actually, this isn't really codominant either because both mutations aren't dominant mutations on the same allele. However, I think that the double homozygous form of the green granite burms is more representative of what a codominant trait would look like. Oh, btw Randy, in your theory that the leucy is a super form of phantom, mojave, lesser platty, etc., how do you explain the lesser platinum X phantom cross that Ralph produced in one of those clutches?

Jake

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding the question but here is a theory on how those three RDR leucistics where produced:

Maybe lesser platinum and phantom are either completely the same (with differences in appearance being due to other genes in the two lines) or two different mutations of the same gene (alleles). Either way the leucistic is homozygous for mutant for that gene (i.e. no normal copies of that gene). It is either homozygous for a single lesser/phantom mutant gene or it has one distinctly phantom copy of that gene and one distinctly lesser copy with no room for a normal copy (I'm not sure what the technical term is for this).

In corn snakes a similar thing happened with motley and stripe. At this point they are so mixed up with such a continuum between the original motley and the original stripe that it's hard to separate the two once distinct mutations. However, initial breeding results showed that they are on the same gene, i.e. homozygous stripe to homozygous motley produce no normal double hets as expected if they where two different genes. This is because neither parent had a normal copy of that gene to give the babies. They ended up looking somewhat in between stripe and motley but it’s hard to predict what the two mutant allele offspring will look like. I suppose if they where two very different mutations of the same gene it might even be possible that they would look normal but when bred together would never be able to produce anything less than other double hets.

I'm still unsure as to how one would prove different mutations of the same gene vs. the exact same mutation. The idea of interference between two different mutations of different genes can eventually be disproved if the leucistics created from the original cross always breed true with each other (indicating they have no normal copies of a common gene between the two original types). Also, if it does turn out that super lesser, super phantom, and super mojave all look the same then the next test would be to breed them together and see if as expected they produce no normals and only leucistics.

This is all just a theory and it's particularly a stretch including mojave in this discussion just because it looks a lot like the other two which are the only ones crossed so far.

In one of those clutches, Ralph produced a snake that was a cross between a lesser and a phantom--in other words, it carried both genes and had an appearance of both mutations. For your theory to be correct, such a cross shouldn't have been able to be produced. Go back and look at his birthing record page if you don't remember exactly what I'm talking about.

I think it's odd that no one has mentioned the most obvious explanation for this--both parents just happened to be het. leucistic. Of course, if the leucy gene were this common, wouldn't more of them have popped up in the wild? Oh well, this is still less confusing than the genetics behind the jaguar carpet pythons.

Jake

I did find that pic today and can see why he feels that it shows both traits. I guess we'll eventually know for sure when more breeding is done. Just based on all the other co-dominant luecistics I'm tending to think co-dominant and that the "cross" might just be one or the other gene with individual variation from who know where.

Ok, I'm confused.

On the link below it sounds to me like Ralph Davis is indicating that the clutch 14 "Cross" is from one of the pastel males that was bred to this phantom female but then under clutch 42 at http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/birthing_record/pythons_5.asp he seems to be thinking that it's a lesser phantom. Sure wish we had a paternity test!

Ok, now I see in clutch 58 at http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/birthing_record/pythons_6.asp that he originally thought the clutch 14 cross was pastel X phantom but then after seeing a blond pastel X lesser in clutch 58 he decided the clutch 14 cross was phantom X lesser. I'm wondering if it couldn't just be the difference between pastel and blond pastel or just the individual variation a pastel lesser combo will have.

Also, I'm confused on the whole platy daddy vs. lesser platy thing. I'm thinking the hypo gene must be separate from the wide pattern gene in order to have produce platy daddy from lesser X normal looking lesser sibling. The normal looking lesser siblings must carry a copy of the hypo like gene so that the platy daddy baby can get two of them and be even lighter than it's lesser platy father. However, could that hypo like gene be some kind of weird co-dominant gene that only has an effect when combined with the lesser gene (i.e. recessive or perhaps even non functional in the normal patterned lesser siblings but co-dominant in wide patterned animals)? Maybe the lessers are het for the lesser pattern gene and also het for the hypo like gene and the combination makes them lighter than the phantom that is just het for the phantom pattern gene. I guess the test will be if lesser platy X normal (or anything) ever produces a phantom looking animal with the lesser pattern but not as light as a lesser. So far it's looking like the lesser is just inherently light (so maybe a lighter allele of the a lesser/phantom gene) but maybe there just haven't been enough produced by lesser dads to have one not get a separate hypo gene yet.
RDR Clutch 14 Description

woot woot! haha...thanks guys

...resides on th Ball Forum?

I forgot about those weird people who like giant snakes, colubrids, and stuff with legs. And then there are those boa weirdos . . .

Jake

But not smart enough to realize that those active in this thread do not represent the ENTIRE herp community?

but smart enough to realize it was a JOKE...

This has been discussed pretty recently and the same points were already made (though I don't agree that displaying a simplified idea of this one specific topic makes one smarter than another). Oh well.

.

A leusistic with purple eyes.

MJ
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I was thinking more along the lines of GREEN EYES or maybe NEON ORANGE?!?

Who knows... maybe the Super will be Platinum colored...

The infamous "time will tell"

LATER
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornSnakeMorphs.com

I like them a lot, but they are not at the top of my list. I think they will be very nice in combo morphs. Like spider mojaves or carmel mojaves I wonder what a Jungle Pastel X Mojave would look like? I'll bet it would be neat. I'll probably have some someday... But right now the price is still too high for me.

Mark

I really like the Mojave, and compare it to the Motley Boa. If there is a Super Mojave, the Mojave might be rocketed to the top of everyone's wish list. Even if there is not a Super, the Hypo Mojave is amazing, and everyone can guess as to what a Pastel or Super Pastel Mojave will look like. My personal opinion is that the Mojave will become more sought after than the Spider, especially if a Super Mojave is produced. That being said, one of my favorite Morphs is the Hypo Spider, the Orange ghost Spider.

Pic of my Mojave, he is jointly owned.