Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I had to jump in here.

First: no doubt in most areas excluding the sandhill country in SE GA and central FL that the kingsnakes avoid like some kind of cursed region of the giant black snakes...knigs are doing much better and populations healthier.

Consider this theory though: the eastern indigo is a tropical snake managing to squeak out a living in a region that gets pretty cold. This genus developed in the tropics. Their cousins (cribos) are doing quite well.

Indigos are like an island animal almost...they manage to hold on because of the deep burrows and the warm sun that pokes it's way through occsionally even in the winter. When it's 50 degrees and sunny in December and the kings are deep in the winter slumber, indigos are out basking.

They are out of the genus' true element and are therefore restricted to a very limited habitat, especially in the winter.

Add to this the fact that they eat so much...the populations even when healthy are not meant to be large.

They are like the elusive jaguar in the jungles of SA as compared to the more numerous smaller predators.

Imagine this: A population of getula from Georgia somehow made it to some island that is hot, dry desert, but has a mountain range that is lush and tropical. The GA kingsnakes can't handle the heat and no humidity of the desert part of the island, but a few managed to find the mountain range. It was not perfect habitat, but they managed to make do, and adapt to the conditions. Over time, they reproduced and became ingrained as a part of ecosystem.

Now...suddenly, the mountain range is being deforested and fragmented with roads and buildings / homes etc. The numbers of the kings in those areas are getting alamingly low as people kill them, collect them, and they get run over.

They have no where else to go.

This is the state the eastern indigo is in.

Not a weak species by any stretch, when you think in these terms.

Drys in NA are on the northern extreme of their range and from all that I've heard, Drys are not rare as a whole in Central and S.America (in areas that haven't been shot to hell of course).

Eastern Kings do not do well in tropical situations - I've been told that and I believe it from my own experiences keeping 5 Easterns in s. Florida - all of them just didn't ever seem to "settle" down and two got sick and one died over the course of a year...my "classic" and "brooksi" floridana never missed a beat in that climate. Others who live in S.Florida with Easterns have shared similar experiences with me as well as 3 vets. I dealt with who worked with herps. That doesn't mean they can't do well in tropical regions, but I had a helluva a time with them and I do my best to keep my snakes in healthy conditions all the time.

If you save the forests down there then I think Dry will be here longer than we will!

By the way Dean, do you have DougT's e-mail address (from the Dry site)? I don't know if I have yours or not. I'd like to ask him a few things about Mussuranas if it's cool.

-John

John,

I know in your experience Easterns didnt do well at your place in Florida. There are others who keep Easterns in Florida and all over and they do fine . Im not saying it to contradict you are tell you are wrong but one instance doesnt make it true. There may have been other variables at work besides geography who knows.

Keith
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Keith,

The only place I had trouble with L.g.g. is in extreme s. Florida. Everywhere else I've had no trouble. I lived in Tallahassee, Jax, Orlando, and West Palm - it was only in tropical FL that I had a problem. Like I say, the snakes weren't croaking on me left and right, but there's something to this because others have had similar experiences. I wouldn't want to keep them down there again...it just didn't "feel" right.

Just as you say Eastern Indigos can't handle it too much into GA, likewise it may be that Eastern Kings from the L.g.g. portion of the range (not penisular intergrades) cannot handle the habitat down there - just think of the range for the species: NJ west a bit and all the way down to s. Florida?! That's a helluva lot of latitude to deal with - talk about some serious habitat and temp. changes! I'm not sure if even CalKings can tolerate that much of a change and they are found in the mountains to some extent in CA.

Another interesting thing, Jonathan Dickinson SP in Martin Co., FL (just north of West Palm) is 12,000 acres with another 6000 coming on board soon. I know the park biologist there, who's been there since 1967, and he's never seen or found any roadkill "brooksi" in the area, nor has anyone else in a very, very long time and this is primo "brooksi" habitat and just 10 miles or so east of Lake Okeechobee. In fact, I think that Krysko only had one historic record of Florida kings in that portion of SE Florida, yet there are Indigos there. Another wierd biogeographical situation.

I agree that Lampropeltis as a whole has a much wider distribution as well as being more climate and habitat diverse, making it - at least in modern times - a more succussful group of snakes than Drys are, when both are compared.

On that note Dean, are there any records of a Dry from SW Georgia? I ask because that is one wierd place, people-wise (it's more Southern than "beachy" like Florida). There are some HUGE tracts of some of the most beautiful l.leaf pine forests left in North America. The locals call them longleaf plantations, and there are some monster tracts of land still in tact. Some places are like standing in an open cathedral of trees, and there are Gophers in these parts. But the people...geezz. Very wealthy and very, very protective of their land. You can get your butt arrested in a second there. And as a field botanist I'll crawl on my belly to avoid detection until I can get into some brush and go on my way looking for plants. But not there I don't - they see a car parked (they have REAL security patrols there) and they investigate; I found out the hard way 7 years ago, but talked my way out of a trespassing charge.

The state line in SW Georgia/Alabama is only 40 miles or so from Tallahassee so it's these area I'm talking about are in dead central, north Florida. Curious about the distribution. There are Easterns and Florida Pines there as well - and big ones!

-John

I believe that at one time couperi inhabited SW Georgia, and as a matter of fact ranged across the entire of South Georgia. They can still be found just a few miles south in the Appalachicola NF and on Eglin AFB. I've heard old-timers talk about "Blue Gophers" in SOuth Georgia. I own some property in SW Georgia, but I doubt if there are still Indigos there even though there are still some Gopher Tortoises and Eastern Diamondbacks. I can still hope and hunt, though.....

>>First: no doubt in most areas excluding the sandhill country in SE GA and central FL that the kingsnakes avoid like some kind of cursed region of the giant black snakes...knigs are doing much better and populations healthier.
Dean is there any proof that Kings avoid the area ? What studies have been done and where can the research be viewed ? Are you saying this as a personal observation ?

>>Indigos are like an island animal almost...they manage to hold on because of the deep burrows and the warm sun that pokes it's way through occsionally even in the winter. When it's 50 degrees and sunny in December and the kings are deep in the winter slumber, indigos are out basking.
Here is a Eastern King from Colquitt Co. GA found out and about by Sean Belanger when the temp was in the 50's. So they are out as well soaking up some rays.

Kings are by far more adaptable than Drys as evident by the amount of habitats they can be found in i.e. Desert, woodland, wetland, subtropical and even higher elevations as Ive seen a pic of a locality Cal King from Colorado. Drys are simply less adaptable otherwise they would have moveed further than just GA. it doesnt make them any less of a snake just not as successful as a King

Keith
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First...I don't know of a scientific study to compare kings co-existing (or not) with indigos. I can only tell you that in the regions where indigos winter in N part of the range,
these animals are studied in great detail. The regions are surveyed heavily and the indigos tracked by radio transmitter.

although MANY other species live in these regions: ex. EDB and canebrakes, copperheads, coachwhips, pygmies, racers, corn snakes, yellow rats...etc. and ALL frequesntly fall prey to indigos.

Curiously, the kingsnakes (from what the research folks have seen) are not there. One researcher studed a healthy indigo population near KSC FL reported to have NEVER have seen a FL king in the 4 years of studying the habitat daily.

Weird huh?
Where there is SIMILAR habitat (ex. SouthWEST GA) and NO indigos...big old getula abound in the same type of habitat.
Maybe they just have a mutual respect, and a particular region simply cannot support both. I the south...(like everglades) both species do co-exist, but there is much more undisturbed habitat.

I agree that kingsnakes are adapted to many habitats, but the example I took was getula getula specifically. Each sub is more uniquely adapted. You could not expect an eastern king to survive in the desert where the cal king thrives, and vice versa.

Same way...the TX indigo is adapted to a desert environment, and the yt cribo to a hotter, more tropical one.

It just so happens that the habitat that this particular sub (couperi) evolved to dominate is vanishing due to urban sprawl.

You know some animals are able to adapt to living in close quarters to humans. Raccoons, garter snakes and even black rats who pick off the baby birds in our yards while we sleep are masters.

But most of the larger, top predators cannot make it.
Man is too tough competetion.

These animals need lots of habitat.
We are not willing to let them have it.

yeah,hmmm,WHATEVER they(indigos) 'bout as sound,strong,and thriving as that there post hahaha,their only hope IS captive breeding,whhhaaaaaaa poorpoor lil indigos,,,,,,,long live the king,"master of the land",,,,thomas