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I'll start a new post HERE to simplify: HANDLING BIG SNAKES

redhed Feb 26, 2004 06:07 PM

Sorry about the confusion, I posted this somewhere below already but I realized it was inadvertently about mid-way through all the thoughts and posts on this thread, which wasn't really fair to half the people who added input.

Since someone asked, here are my thoughts on the subject, a worhtwhile topic:

First, bravo, extremely well put, Kelly and especially DFR, regarding your first comments addressing this thread.

Perhaps some perspective about how only wild greens behave would help?

Out of the over 800 adult green anaconda catches, we had many try and bite - only defensively. (Undoubtedly everyone here knows anacondas are a pretty feisty breed, not unlike many water snake species. I'd never suggest them as a good first snake pet.) Simply, once they tried to swim/crawl away and had no success, then they turned and tried to bite, as a last resort defense. These bites were basically a way of vehemently expressing "leave me alone, you're bothering/scaring me!" They were not super fast strikes, or highly dangerous; typically defensive, "go away" strikes.

I had a bite from an almost 16 foot, large-headed, very pregnant female. Although she had a particularly grumpy personality - I can't blame her, we had surgically implanted a radio trasnmitter in her - and she was pregnanat and thus protective, she typically bit and let go (I was stupid enough to get bit, because I was trying to grab her under cloudy river water where I couldn't see her, I just knew she was there thanks to the transmitter). The only reason the bite was worse was because I pulled, and her tooth snagged on my wrist. (Fight your instincts, never pull when an anaconda bites with those recurved teeth. If they don't let go, you have to be counterintuitive; push slightly further in if you can, the snake will loosen its hold and then you can get free.)Regardless, a bite from a really big dog could have been worse.

Anyway, out of over 800 snakes, and most of those attempting to bite defensively though not succeeding, we had two predatory strikes (almost bites). Two attackes on people, that is. The snakes didn't succeed, but almost; one attempt we even got on film. However, if you have watched your snake feed, you know how fast, violent, and dangerous (if you are the prey!)a predatory bite can be.

So, our rules were simple (at least, after seeing the predatory strike!): Never look for, or as captive owners should word it, nevr handle a large female alone. Period. If those people (one a man, one a woman) had been successfully attacked by the female that went after them, and no one else was around, there is no doubt they would have died. Maybe not eaten successfully, but definitely killed. And, even if we had been around but the first predatory strike was successful, it is quite likely that the person could have had some ribs, or even the spine, broken by the time we had them unwrapped. Don't underestimate the speed at which 200 pounds of snake can move, and the strength they use when they have their prey - they don't want to give it up - try unwrapping a snake from around a caiman - not as necessarily as easy as you'd think.

Second, when you have to catch a large female, use a specific technique. Don't just wing it and hope for the best. Never assume that your snake is so calm that she will never be a problem. Of course, our wild snakes were never "calm" like a pet. We had a technique that worked fine with just two people - for example, my ex and myself, he's strong, I'm strong for my size (catching many anacondas is a much better workout than Gold's Gym!), but still at 5'3" 105 lbs, I've stood on large snakes and had them lift me entirely off the ground. Stength only goes so far. This technique worked with snakes up to about 16 feet. At that point, a third person will be necessary, even if one of your 2 people is the Hulk. And, since you have the option to do so, it will obviously be easiest to move, handle your snakes when they are cold.

Once we learned the technique, we went from needing about 5 big people, to just 2 people. The stronger, OR more skilled, handler first goes for the head - for obvious reasons. At the same time, the job of the other person is the keep the 1st 5th of the snake's body - what we call "the evil loop" - from gaining control. The 2nd person job is to keep this 1st fifth from coiling. Sit on it, pull it straight if you are VERY strong, or probably best is to constantly manipulate it, trying to keep it straight, until the snake tires. this can even mean holding the tail and pulling the entire body straight, if possible - simply the tug of war between pulling it straight and the snake resisting, often keeps the "evil loop" from forming.

Regardless, it is this 1st fifth of the body that will immediately try and loop itself over the snake's head AND the handler's hand(s) on it's "neck", since the snake's best option, once it is caught, is to protect it's head, while also trying to push handler #1's hands off of it's head. When I was first learning this through trial and error, I had a snake wrap her coil all the way around my hands (that were holding her head) so that she had me tied up just like handcuffs, and she began pushing my hands over, and off, her "neck", right over her head - not a good position to be in... This is exactly what they will all try and do, no matter what their size, they are always protecting their head. One way to avoid this, is to also constantly switch hands that is holding the head, so that the "loop" cannot get a vantage point (ie. once the loop begins to cover a hand, reach in behind the loop and switch hands holding the head, thus she has to start over forming the loop). It doesn't take long for the snake to tire, about 5 - 10 minutes, luckily. This may sound too aggressive a way to handle a snake, but remember I'm talking about wild snakes that had never been handled. It is a good method to be aware of, and to practice, even if your snake is calm, and you can do so very gently.

Even if your snakes are ~calm, having been raised in captivity, you should know this technique, just like in catching crocs, you should know the proper technique for maximu safety to you, and minimum risk to the croc (i.e., don't learn how to do from watching the croc hunter!). And never do what one fellow did, who could win a Darwin Award, since he is no longer with us: he went to feed his retic, and as he needed both hands to unlatch and open the top of the large retic's cage, so he tucked the dead bunny under his chin so both hands were free...you can imagine the rest of the story, hungry retic included.

I hope this description makes sense, it is a bit hard to describe without demonstrating. Rule number one, NEVER handle a large retic or anaconda when you are alone. I know you've done it, so have I, but it's just unwise, and it is the number one reason people have gotten very hurt, or even killed, by their pets - they were always alone. As with all non-domesticated, wild animals, you can only trust one thing; although you can predict behavior, you can also predict that wild animals are unpredictable. They can behave the same for years, and one day be a little "off", and it is us, the humans, who make the mistake of underestimating them that gets us in trouble. Just ask Roy whats-his-name with the stupid Vegas tiger show...apparently they forgot that their house cats were many hundred pounds with big teeth and claws.

Since we get used to, or experienced with, having a dangerous animal, such as an anaconda, in captivity, or as a pet, or say having 15 temporarily in bags and 4 others in oil drums in a tiny house (hmm, who could that be), it is in our nature to get complacent. If nothing startling happens, why would then expect something to, especially as the pattern repeats itself, over time? But if you think about it, it this very reason, this lack of respect, or even simple underestimation of what being a "wild" animal truly means in respect its relationship with a human, is what causes almost all bites, injuries, mishaps, with non-domesticated animals. This is why, for example, the most injured keepers at zoos are elephant keepers: they tend to forget they are working with a highly intelligent, huge animal that can kill them with one squish, an animal that has essentially chosen to cooperate. Over time these keepers forget, lose respect, and begin to think of them as over-sized, cute cows that they can push around. Hardly. And then, when a wild animal acts according, when an elephant has a bad mood, when a mountain acts like a big cat, and kills a prey that happens to be human, when "pet" wolf turns on its master once it has reached puberty, people who do not understand behavior ask, "why did that 'aberrent' behavior happen? Was the animal sick, rabid, starving, abused?" Often the animal is just doing what may be programmed in its repertoire, we just may not like it.

I've met many a person with a pet snake that "never" bites. I tell them the only predictable thing about animals is that they are unpreedictable, even if the unpredicted moment only comes once in a lifetime. Until you can read the animals' mind, you must mmaintain a healthy respect for its potential repertoire of behaviors. This is something that, for example, Steve Irwin forgets, too, and one day, when he has forgotten to stick his venomous snakes in the freezer before filming, he is going to regret it.

As far as stun guns and pepper sprays go: I wouldn't dream of using one on my dog, or cat, so why would you use one on an anaconda? Because it is potentially more dangerous? If this is your back-up precaution to a dangerous situation, you have not considered the right precautions. You should follow the rules above, whether they are convenient or not. These rules, and whether you can stick to them, are something you must consider when deciding whether or not you are responsible enough to own a very large, aggressive snake. After all, if you lived in a high rise, you wouldn't buy a horse; same kind of logic.

Secondly, as someone mentioned, if you ar in a situation where you use a stun gun, or pepper spray, or any other weapon that causes pain or injury, the only thing the snake will learn is to associate you, and your smell, with pain and fear from then on. From that point on, you will have a more dangerous, unfriendly, and poor excuse of a pet than ever, which will not take to "rehabilitation" very well.

PS. I just gave a talk about snakes and anacondas to a group of schoolchildren, and I think we now have over 60 8-year old converts of kids who now love anacondas!! Not one of them were afraid of them, either. Not one! Wonderful. I introduced my bearded dragon to them, and told the kids I could predict with 99% surety that the dragon wouldn't bite, if they treated it appropriately. My dragon was a model lizard.

Renee

Replies (8)

Kelly_Haller Feb 26, 2004 07:19 PM

Renee,
Thanks for your informative comments on this very interesting topic. The insight you have from your work with wild anacondas has given us a new and different perspective on the subject. As you have read, I strongly agree with your bottom line. Always have at least one other person around if you feel the need. Do not rely on devices of any kind to keep yourself out of trouble. Your comments about predatory attacks should help to remind people who maintain large constrictors that the most dangerous time you interact with them is during feeding. A feeding strike from a very large constrictor represents the most likely situation in which you could be killed. They are not defending themselves or just trying to move away; they are intentionally trying to kill a perceived prey animal. If they happen to connect with you instead, you will be in serious trouble. One always needs to be extra careful when feeding, or even when there is the possibility that the snake might feel that it is going to be fed. This is especially true with anacondas, as they are more powerful at a smaller size than other boids. Having worked with many large constrictors over the years, anacondas appear to have nearly twice the strength of an equal sized python of any species. Defensive bites are serious, but a predatory strike can easily be lethal. And you are quite correct, it is always amazing to me how fast a 200 to 250 pound snake can strike. Thanks again,

Kelly

Porkins Feb 26, 2004 10:45 PM

Word to reader, I love cornsnakes, and nothing against them, and when I say stupid people, I just got angry alot when kids and even adults would not listen to me when holding a snake, so yes, they are stupid. Although some did show intelligence.

When I worked at a pet store, most people would be scared of the snake, shaky hands, clammy, cold sweaty palms, etc. Stuff snakes do not like. Take a corn snake, if they bite you, your stupid, but people would be scared of them. Colubrids are smaller, thinner, and they just try to get away. Take a younger baby boid, redtails, dumerils, larger baby boids, now, they can move when needed, yes, but they cannot twist and get around as easy as a coulubrid. So there options are more limited, and most just try to relax anyways, but some people freak, and so the snake freaks. Snakes have to hold on by contricting around a arm, finger, hand, whatever, you know this, I know this, stupid people do not and they get scared and think the snake is attacking or are trying to eat them.

Now, take a Anaconda, most people are scared to death of them, from the movies and their reputation, so they are even more scared, more shakyness, more cold clammy palms.

Take venomous for example, when people hold them, they are freaking out, and bamm, its there fault if they get hit. I have seen people hold Cottenmouths and have no strikes at all. Hell, just watch Crocodile Hunter for one night, he holds King Browns, and they are totally relaxed. Yes, some snakes are more aggressive, but I say aggressive defensively, because they never strike out of anger, they strike because of fear or mistake for food. Most just try to get away.

Also, the amount of people around them is a huge reason. When someone pulls out a cornsnake, most people have seen it and hang back, keep walking, etc, they hear the word Anaconda, and BAMM, they are surrounding it. The snake feels there is no place to go, and yes, strikes out of fear. Just like any venomous snakes, people have to get around and see it, and so the snake gets scared.

Same goes for ferrets, dogs, cats, lizards, heck, I have seen turtles freak out. Except the gloriously stupid Ball Pythons, they just turn into a ball, which is what they do when being fed, held, anything at all. Sorry, I just had to force feed so many Ball Pythons, that I hate them.

zoolady Feb 27, 2004 01:17 PM

That's got to be the best overall advice and information anyone has posted yet. I think and hope that now this subject, though it was quite fun for me, can be wrapped up!

Tons of Anaconda loving 8 year olds...we're in touble now!!
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dfr Feb 26, 2004 09:40 PM

` I learned much from your post, and was entertained at the same time, as usual.
` Do you have pix of the kids learning about reptiles? I'd love to see some.

` Does that ( pick your own expletive ) really chill snakes for filming? I didn't like him before. Now, well, this is a PG rated forum. It is amazing, what some people will do for money. Damn.

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MR_ANACONDA28 Feb 26, 2004 10:23 PM

I ran into a guy at a swap meet that worked on the film Anaconda (or he said he did) not sure of his name. I remember him sayin that they kept the anacondas in a large refrigerator to calm them down before filming. I didnt like that one bit, and was realy upset about the entire thing.

AnacondaKeeper Feb 27, 2004 02:07 PM

Great information, I'm going to have to save it and read it several times !

But I do disagree on this point: You ask why would one use a stun gun or pepper spray on a dog? To save my life. I'm sure its been done MANY times with dogs! Unforeseen circumstances can always happen, no matter how good one plans. Just ask Roy the tiger guy...can you folks imagine the planning he has to do for insurance companies, the hotels, the casinos, etc etc?? How many animal "EXPERTS" have probably reviewed his procedures? So much for dogmatic procedures....

Anyway, if I had to use pepper sray on a large snake to save my life, I really wouldn't be worried whether the snake likes me anymore. I just believe in being properly prepared to the maximum realistically possible, especially when lives are potentially involved. But that's just me.

redhed Feb 27, 2004 05:32 PM

Well, sure, to save your life, you gotta do what you gotta do. It think what we want to do here is discriminate between what you'd do given no other choice, and what you PLAN for, anticipating there could be a dangerous situation with a large, potentially deadly snake. Like I said, rule 1, never handle very big snakes when you are conpletely alone. Rule number two, have a specific procedure in mind when you do handle the snake, and/or feed the snake, and always follow that procedure.

What I said is I wouldn't pepper spray MY dog. If I had a dangerous dog, I'd train it so that it was always under control - or more likely, I'd be questioning my judgement at owning or breeeding a vicious dog to begin with, and why it got that way.

And as for Roy, if he still has any brains left, he should use them. I'm no tiger expert, but I do know this much: any expert opinion should say they should't BE pets, a wild cat makes a lousy pet, and they definitely shouldn't be extorted as a Vegas show to entertain people! This is NOT the message to teach children (or adults) about how to respect and preserve endangered wildlife.

I think I'll save my pepper spray for those obnoxious people that swoop in and spray you with horrendous perfumes at the mall department stores.

Renee

zoolady Feb 27, 2004 10:46 PM

I'm so confused. I agree with the BOTH OF YOU!!!
But I'm not testing it out for you!!
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