Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A couple of points in the thread below indicate things to keep in mind when using "dry heat" packs that depend on rapid oxidation of iron powder. The best short discussion of the chemical reactions involved that I could find in a brief search can be found at http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/mar98/890260329.Ch.r.html

The basic point, correctly mentioned by several of the posts, is that this chemical reaction uses oxygen; as I understand the equations in the website listed above, it uses a LOT of oxygen, much more than would be contained in the airspace in a typical shipping box. The reaction is also aggressive enough to scavenge basically all of the oxygen out of a closed container rather quickly; worse, in a perforated container the higher temperature inside will retard inflow of cooler outside air into the box. Solving that problem by placing holes such that the box "draws" air also defeats the retention of the heat being produced. In short, my understanding of the oxygen demands of the reaction vs. the amount of heat given off indicates that any box that is going to stay reasonably warm inside (say, 20-30 F above outside air temperatures) is also going to have significant oxygen depletion problems.

So why do experienced keepers find that this shipping method "usually works"? One answer could be that reptiles are able to tolerate very low oxygen levels for much longer than a warm-blooded animal could. This anaerobic capability is better at lower temperatures, however, and it might thus be a mistake to try to keep animals any warmer in transit than they absolutely need to be. Don't forget that monitors have less ability, physiologically, to withstand anoxia than do most other reptiles. What goes first under anoxic conditions are those cells with the highest metabolic demands, which are generally those in the heart and in the more "cognitive" parts of the brain. Unlike heart muscle cells, neurons typically don't repair damage.

This isn't intended as a "don't do it or your lizard will arrive retarded" post. Instead, people should be aware of what is going on with dry heat packs, and consider both the costs and the benefits.

So when I tape the box up sealed completely, then add two airholes one on either side of the box. It should be less likely to work???? Hmmm thats odd cause it worked better that way.

When I just threw the heat pack as is in the freezer or fridge it died.

I took that as meaning it needed less air not more air. Man I must be an idiot. So since it worked better in my box does that mean I have alot of airflow out of the two holes I put in? Or is it more a balancing act of air flow?

Interesting, I'll have to look into whats making my boxes work as is instead of the ton of holes method.

Dang I must also be selling alot of retarded animals then eh? LOL no wonder why they always arrive so tame.

Read the F'n article??

If you knew anything about the chemistry involved you'd just listen read and for the most part accept what he typed.

Regardless of what you're shipping around, the chemistry is what the chemistry is. If you're a PHD then I'll listen to your newly researched report on this subject. Until then accept what people are TRYING TO SHARE with you.

Why is it that when someone goes through the trouble with trying to help people out people always find something to complain about.

If you don't like what he said then keep shipping your animals the way you want. I'd much rather keep mine breathing. Good luck.

Do you need a hug from mommy? sheesh calm your jets man.

Was I talking to you? No and if you step up like that again watch out for the back hand.

Talk about jumping on someone for no reason. Did I say I had a problem with him? Did I say his methods were bad? did I raise my voice and swear?

Give me a break man, I just said I ship this way and it works and asked why it then worked???

I never said I had a PHD, could careless.

If sam has a problem with what I said I am sure he will talk to me but unilike you he will do just that.

Man you got some nerve from being behind a PC. Best watch that mouth one of these days the pc might not be in front of it.

If you have something legit to say say it if not why bother?

Maybe it is the way I put the holes and place them that gives them enough air. When I said they arrive tame cause of it, I was joking. Can you take a joke??? wait obviously not.

But anyways slim go back to the gym and eat your wheaties you will need them.

Later

Nope Mommy hugged me last week. Perhaps you need one, you're the one thinking about it.

You weren't directly addressing me, however, you were posting in a public forum for everyone to read. As for the backhand, I'm very doubtful your arms are long enough to reach me from where you are, nor would speak to me in person like you did here.

You didn't speak in any sort of complimentary tone, which is what I complained about. If someone takes the time to put some actual science or data together, it seems the vast majority of the people who manage to reply aren't joining into the conversation.

As for a PHD, if you had one you'd care, I guarantee, but I guess you couldn't get one. Most people disregard stuff as a trivial acheivement until they try to accomplish it.

Also, I've got plenty of nerve in just about any situation, so I'm not too worried about not being behind it. Also, just so you know, I can take a joke, the joke just has exist outside of the person attempting to say it. Get it? You have to tell the joke, not be it.

I'm not slim either, do your homework before you call someone something. If slim is 6'6", 280. Then I guess I'm slim, if its less than that, then I'm not him.

BTW in other news, good post Sam it was very informative and I'll make sure I do some testing with my boxes before I even THINK of shipping anything alive. Thanks for spending the time to help inform me.

Oscar

Thats it so your mad cause I didnt say Good post Sam????

Hahahaha I am sure Sam really posted that for a pat on the back.

Give me a break, glad you still give mommy hugs. Like I said say those words from behind the desk, come out in front and it'd be a different story. Talk about repeating what I said to you whats the mattter couldn't think of anything good yourself?

Haha I like how you have to post your stats does that make you feel better? I wasn't impressed.

Oh and again I did run tests and have been shipping for 4 or so years. Have had 2 problems wow seems like my way is working to me. That is why I asked my questions. I didn't say it in any tone of voice as all I did is typed. I didnt not swear or put Caps as you did.

So again Tiny, Slim, don't come yelling in my face. I said nothing to bring that out. You read my post as you wanted to obviously, cause if I wanted to attack Sam and say something I would. When I do you'll know it no Big butts about it.

I'm not really interested in continuing the conversation, perhaps if I really cared that much. Good luck with your shipping, and I mean it, and I hope everyone continues contributing.

Don't open those in a small room, it may deplete the oxygen, make you retarded, and that could seriously affect your ability to get a Phd.

hahahahahahaha

This really is silly, heat packs are used for shipping fish, reptiles, amphibians, birds, and mammals. I do think birds and mammals need alot more oxygen than reptiles, but I don't have a Phd so you better not take my word for it.

--Robert

Man here I thought I was born stupid LOL

Well atleast I now have an excuse.

These things should come with a warning label.

Several things bother me about you Sam, but only one is important. That is, everything you post is negative and nothing positive. You seem to know and explain what doesn't work in all aspects of monitors in nature and captivity and now shipping.

Like the first two, I will have to ask, how much actual shipping experience do you have???

Again I will have to bring up, I have shipped thousands of boxes, thats what happens when your actually successful breeding reptiles of all kinds.

I will be your opposite again, I will offer what does work and this is from the, if you only had a brain file.

Yes it takes oxygen. But all the heat pads I know of, have two sides. It does not take a genius to understand if you place the pad over or near a air hole, then the problem can be solved. Air in one side, heat out the other. Then place the monitor in a container with its air holes placing away from the heat pad/s. Make sure there is an air hole on that side. This allows for heat on one side, air on the other. It also allows for the monitor to actually get away from the heat. Experience will tell you how large to make the air holes. Also, as I mentioned below, you must consider the species you are shipping. Cold tolerant species can be shipped at very cold temps, but equatorial species, may not be. Also, insulation is not insulation. It without a doubt takes more then 1/2 inch. Our minimum is two inches and sometimes more. We also, limit the temperature range we will ship in. We do not ship if the temps are below 25F. Actually we will ship, but we will not be responcible for the outcome.

How about the old fashioned way, a friend thats no longer with us, use to put a rat in a jar(with lots of holes) in the shipping box, he never had a problem. A few mice will do the job as well. As the giant genius that you are, you do know how much heat they put out. A heatpack simple cannot compete with rodents, except for the smell. Please update the jar and use a wire enclosure.

As you can see, it only takes a little imagination to find one of the million ways to allow things to work.

Again experience is the key, as with all things learned. You must actually perfect your learned information thru experience.(the actual doing)

And in this case, there are millions and millions of successful shipments of reptiles, using heat packs. I guess you simply have to know how and practice it.

Lastly and only slighly related, I have to wonder, what your intentions are on these forums, Is it to confuse everyone? discredit everyone? Show how smart you are? To simply cause trouble? I ask this because most people come here to help others or learn, or even simply to entertain, Yet, all you do is slam without helping. You must be a great teacher.

To me, your just another naysayer, but your just a tiny bit more educated then some. Until you start doing instead of simply taking, then you will never be anything more. Why don't you help and offer solutions.
On our forum, I asked you to at least share pics(for us to enjoy) while you naysayed all our successful experience, yet that never happened, NOT EVEN ONCE. You seem to have the ability to work a computer, yet can't even post a pic. Now that takes brains. Good luck in your tasks, FR

I put my heat packs to one side, therefor it is by an air hole. The animal I pout near the oppisite side by that air hole.

I have been shipping for 4 years or so and have had 2 problems in that time. I don't think thats to bad.

Isn't science more then just what looks good on paper? Isn't there a thing as in what is tested and works is good??

What is tested and works is science. What is talked about is theory and only theory until tested. Theory can be anything from totally wrong to all the way right, only one way to find out, is test it.

Using theory as science is, of all things, not science. hahahahahahaha.

In the case of our mister science, he likes to explain away success. The problem with that is, we do not need it explained away. We like our success, just like it is. I do wish these people would help with our problems(non-successes)

We like pairs of monitors being social, we like(OK, love) monitors muliti-clutching, I don't care to ship at any time, But we do not have a problem shipping in all but the most extreme weather. That mister science does not "do" any of that, is not about science, its about mister science, the person, not the scientist.

I used to build zoo exhibits. I would hire expensive and talented people to work with. Once one of them came to me and said, this plan is all wrong
(they all were). I responded with, I do not hire(pay) you to tell me whats wrong with that plan, I hire you to make it right. I hoped he learned from that. He did. After that, he would offer ways to fix the problems, not tell me what was wrong.

Up to that point, he thought i was very picky, my way or the highway type of thing, but once he offered ways to fix the problem, he found out I was not so picky, all I wanted was one of the many successful ways, not one of the wrong ways.

If mister science is so smart, then the proof is offering cures to the problems.

About shipping, two mishaps is a fair amount in that time. I have had one, in all the years I have been shipping, it was with Delta. The plane was diverted to Salt Lake, and got stuck on the runway.

Which brings up this, most of shipping is in the hands of the shipping companies, whether its UPS, USPS, fedex or delta. They are all run by people and machines. All of which make mistakes or break. They can be exposed to all sorts of conditions and the shipping companies have total control over that. Or they can be done with thought. Again they have control over that. My guess is, you, the person paying to have your animals shipped should try to overcome the mistakes they can and do make. You can only do the best you can. The rest is up to them, the shipping companies.

Whoops, I am not sure this is a mishap, once many years ago, I shipped a monitor to a fella in Washington state, it took six months to get there. But low and behold, it came in fine and healthy????????????? got me, someone had to have kept it for a pet for awhile, or, or, It broke seven million lacie act laws, as it may have traveled around the world a few times. FR

Wow thats quite a trip that thing had.

I didn't think 2 was a bad number either, I wish it was 0.

I had some geckos stuck at the runway too. On the third day they made it and all were fine. Thats the biggest delay I have had.
When I first started I had a BT that was delayed and he did not make it. But as I failed him I learned and did not fail with the geckos.

I think that is the right path to take, learn from mistakes and gain knowledge through experience. I would rather be taught from experience then a text book. But guess I am just silly.

There is nothing wrong with reading information. There is also nothing wrong with applying it. But to think you learned something by reading is a bit odd. You learn by applying and doing. You can be made aware by reading.

That is particularly important here, as we are actually doing something, we are keeping monitors. Its applied knowledge, not read knowledge. Same goes for shipping, its applied knowledge.

What I also find funny is, they think we are against chem. or math, hahahahahahahaha, nothing could be further from the truth, I know, I am only against that application of it.

I already knew heatpads use oxygen, and many of us, already know how to use them. So, what was the real point? FR

Enormous hypo-orange german giant beardie get lost for a week between Alabama and PA, only it went by 18 wheeler (oops, darn missed the plane)to northern NY where it spent the holiday weekend on a loading dock (3 more days). It showed up, finally when the delivery company found it and the strange part was that this package had, as I told them to do a styrofoam cooler, with some shredded newspaper for some padding inside, one tiny air hole on both sides. He neglected though to get a 40-60 hour heat pack, instead he put a zip-lock with rice under the animal which was in a cotton pillow case. The temps all except the first day and a half, were below to well below freezing and that beardie was alive and fiesty, in fact upon sight of our female he leaped from the container he was warming up in into her container and they began the first of 9 or more instances of copulation in less than 2 days, 45 minutes out of the frozen box, tough animal. He proof alone that a healthy reptile can make a hard trip and have nothing wrong. I think its common sense to most (ok some) that you should have small air holes in the package for any animal to be delivered. That male WT that I got for a friend of mine awhile back that originally came from you had a dead heat pack, the temps were well below freezing but hes alive healthy and beautiful as always.
I guess if you start a fire to keep warm in a freezer your just asking to suffocate faster, but most of us know that already, without having to try it.

Nothing in my post supports your personal comments, Frank. I have seen a lot of animals come in over the years with few or no air holes in a well-insulated box and a heat pack or two loose on the bottom. People do that, and I'm glad you don't, but the reasons and possible solutions don't seem to be that widely known. Nobody was addressing that, so I did. When a person states that a heat pack in the freezer stops in a couple of hours, and they don't realize it's because the pack scavenged all the oxygen out of the sealed freezer compartment and starved the reaction, that's a worry. When you blow off you only reflect on your own shortcomings.

Only some of them. I have tons of shortcomings, what about you?

its about helping and being accurate. Your posts are always worse case senarios(negative). I was just showing the other side of the coin. You clearly pointed out the negative side, I clearly pointed out what it takes to achieve the positive side. Is there a problem with that?

The truth is, people without shipping experience should not ship. They really should seek the help of someone who has experience. If they want to trust the lives of their monitors to inexperience and the shortcomings of our shipping systems, then go for it. Personally, I understand shipping is always a risk. What surprises me is, some people think its a sure thing. Its not. FR

Why does it last longer when in the shipping box placed into the freezer? shouldnt it die at the same rate?

When just tossed in why did it not die at the same rate in my fridge as my freezer? Is there more O2 in my fridge? Guess I better check the seals might be running my electric up.

I am not trying to be a prick either, I just want to test your theories. Thats what they are right? or did you run evasive testing on heat packs and shipping?

Haha guess when it comes down to it it doesnt matter to me if it dies in my freezer or fridge. What matters is it works in my packages when I ship them.

So far it has worked for me. So why would I go about changing it now?

So far I've found that some of my friends here don't believe in biology, don't believe in math, and now don't believe in chemistry. Anybody want to go for physics? I hereby claim that "Monitors are affected by gravity" -- any takers?

My comment was not "directed at you", Jody, it used an instance you cited. Of course a heat pack will conk out faster in a freezer than in a refrigerator -- the freezer compartment has a lesser volume of air, and it is typically better sealed. The difference in temperatures should not affect the rate of the chemical reaction much, unless it is so cold that the salt solution freezes.

If people would like, I will be happy to put an oxygen probe into a typical insulated shipping box, with various levels of sealing and numbers and placement of air holes. Warning, though, this is going to show oxygen depletion (it's that chemistry and physics again)-- I can tell you that from first principles (since I accept those physical laws). What then? Am I going to hear "So what, my monitors do fine w/o oxygen, they always have"?

You'll then have proven how much O2 is left and for how long. I guess then you'll have to see how long reptile can withstand low levels of O2.

What effects it has on them over prolonged peiods of time. hm and probly alot of other things. Meanwhile everyone will still be shipping like they have countless times. So in the long run what will all of this looking into things with a fine toothed comb have got you?

Is this forum for giving everyone High fives, pat on the back?

I thought it was about discussions? Does that not include disagreements? When was it made a bad thing to not agree with someone else? I don't care if they have a PHD , MVP, PMS, etc.

But anyways I am bored talking about shipping as I am not the one that has any problems with shipping.

I don't know Sam, I bred tons of flying monitors! God, this place has gotten bad; glad I rarely check in. Thanks for the tips, I'm about to send some animals east. Talk to you soon. And btw, the proofs on the book look great, I can't wait. Hope they put in the section of gravity-defeating monitors that don't breathe oxygen while sitting behind their computers talking smack about those with a good education.

I believe in chemistry, math and biology. Just not how you use them.

Because I do not believe in you, doesn't make me not respect science. You are not science. That sir is plain and simple. The fact that you think you represent them is also fairly odd.

You offer the mechanics of heatpacks, yet, do not offer how we can successfully use them. Again odd. I still wonder what your agenda is. FR

but I do doubt your understanding of it.

--Robert

The reason they die in minutes in a freezer has absolutely nothing to do with oxygen. It has everything to do with H2O.

--Robert

Care to elaborate, or just want to leave us all hanging? Water is required for the reaction, but most packs use salted water with a concentration that probably wouldn't freeze down to about 24-26 F, and the heat produced by the reaction would work against a freezer cooling the pack to that temperature until the oxygen had already been depleted.

'wouldn't freeze down to about 24-26 F'

Proper freezer temp for food storage is about 0F, that is the temp bacteria stop multiplying at.

If your freezer is at or above 26F you really need to buy a new one.

--Robert

Strange case to rest -- what is the heat pack doing? If it's putting out 120-130 F as long as the oxygen lasts, it isn't going to get below freezing until the lack of oxygen begins to reduce the rate of the reaction. Think about it.

in air at such a high rate, which requires substantial airflow across it, it will cool very quickly. 22cu ft of air (at least) in minutes is pretty insane airflow for a static device.

Think about it.

--Robert

When you put a candle in a freezer, does it go out? When? Why? Don't try this at home...

A candle/fire is much hotter than 120F and will cause a noticeable airflow that can be felt.

You are not using any common sense.

--Robert

The problem with all this education and not using common sense is.

Who gives a crap what a heatpack does in a freezer. If you folks were really concerned, put the whole package in the freezer. Box, insulation, object being shipped, packing, airholes, etc. Then you would measure the effects. Remember, the temps may be close, but hopefully the shipments will not be deprived of oxygen.

how cold effects heatpacks is very simple, the colder it is, the shorter the distance from the heatpack is heated. That is, if the air temps are 15F(only an example) a heatpack will only heat of quarter of an inch from the pack. Which makes it totally useless for any practicial application. If you beanheads are concerned about what temp causes the heatpack to completely stop functioning, then your, well, nuts, because your little pet monitor is already long dead.

The deal and only the deal is, not when the pack quits working, but when the monitor quits working.(the object of this forum and object of concern)

The key to happy shipping is a balance of insulation, packing, airholes and insulation. This along with proper packing and choice of species. Combine that with the knowledge of what to adjust at what temperature.

Once on another forum, I made a dumbarse list for Mister science. Here is another.

Your a dumbarse,

1. If you ship at too low of a temperature.
2. If you put 30 heatpacks in a small box.
3. If you use heatpacks on a hot day
4. If the shipment goes to a hot place(like if it sits on the side of the truck in the sun.
5. If the shipping container is to small
6. If the shipping container is to large
7. Lastly, if you do not understand any of the above.

There are many points here, but there are some major ones to be concerned with. First, there is absolutely no need to understand the mechanics of heatpacks, you simply need to know how to use them. Second, To realize, that education is not important if you do not know how and when to use it. People need to understand, keeping and working with animals is about Making decisions, not nessarily about education. Like all tools, education can be used improperly.

A Heatpack is a tool to be used. It can and has, more importantly, IS, being used successfully.

Hey, do you know and understand the functioning mechanics of your car, computer, heart, the freezer for heavens sake. Common fellas get a brain, and some humor, and, and, and, Ya just need to understand how to use um. FR

I'll drop it, I really don't care, and it's obvious I could disprove it many times over and nothing would be clearer.

I do actually understand the mechanics in a car, freezer, remember I'm one of those types that has to muck in everything. But the humor thing, ouch, that just hurt. hahahahaha

--Robert

I don't have a beef with you, Robert, but you have only proved the earlier point about biology, math and chemistry, except now in thermodynamics. Both processes (heat pack and candle) are oxidation reactions (aka combustion), and the variable in this discussion is that they proceed at different rates. A heat pack is just rusting quickly (aka burning slowly), and it produces the exact same amount of heat that an equal quantity of iron would make as it rusted in your back yard over months or years. As long as there is liquid water, elemental iron and oxygen, the reaction will proceed. Ambient temperature will have very little to do with the rate as long as liquid water is available. That's why heat packs contain salt, to depress the freezing point of the water. Yes, you can stop a heat pack by freezing it, but you have to remove the heat produced by the reaction more quickly than it is being produced, and that is not going to happen in a home freezer at 0 F AS LONG AS there is enough oxygen available. Oxygen is the rate-limiting step. In a freezer, the reaction uses up oxygen and starves (slows down) to the point where the reduced heat being produced CAN be taken up by the cooling mechanism, and the water freezes.

In fact, you can't disprove this unless you have found an exception to the laws of chemistry and thermodynamics. If you have, you are wasting your time here mate, the patent office is open 'til 5.

If somebody thinks that powdered iron doesn't burn, don't try this: put a spoonful in a big plastic bag full of oxygen, shake that up and create a spark in the bag. Keep in mind that all of the heat will be produced in a millisecond, and that your estate may need to replace the neighbors' windows.

Frank is right there is no point in this, in practice it doesn't matter, because it has been proven they do NOT consume that much oxygen. They need some to work, but the only decent rate of oxygen consumption would have to be on activation. There would be alot of dead sugar gliders if heat packs consumed near the oxygen you claim. But I do have a sense of humor. I am laughing and this is fun...

You are claiming that a heat pack can use oxygen in air at a rate more than a couple cfm, but let's say it's 2cfm. Let's say a 40 hour heat pack is really only good for 20 hours. That would mean it would need (or could use) 2,400 cu ft of air in it's lifetime. (2cfm x 60 min/hr x 20 hr) Which would be approx 500 cubic feet of pure oxygen. (2,400 x .21 (21%))

Where oh where is all the Fe to use all this oxygen? These heat packs don't weigh a hundred pounds. It surely is not putting out that much water/water vapor. So where does it go?

--Robert

Who said anything about 2 cfm? That'd be a lawnmower engine, mate.

I also know the functioning of my car, computer, heart, the freezer, and a bunch of the physics and chemistry as well as the mechanical function.

BTW as far as I know there isn't much mechanical function in a heat pack. Unless you're talking about the chemical mechanism.

Typically knowing how something works has a great deal to knowing how to use that something. Fer instance your freezer, you know it makes things cold. So should you leave the door open and cool off the house? It'd work to a limited degree woulnd't it? However, because you know how it works, you KNOW that just leaving the door open won't actually cool off the house, because you KNOW that there's just a simple heat exchage via the coils hidden behind/underneath your fridge, and you'd also know that you'd spoil the food in the fridge, if you left it open because the freezer isn't supplying the fridge portion with any cold, and you're probably going to burn up the compressor because you know HOW it works, and its mechanical limits.

I'm sorta confused about the education statement you made. If you don't have the education about your animals you're taking care of, then how exactly can you make those desicions that are so important? So in the end, people who have never used a heatpack, and don't have anyone to help them figure out how to ship with one, heck maybe we should 'listen to the monitors'.
Or perhaps they could benefit from the 'mechanics' of the heatpack.

In the end its all just a discussion anyway between a bunch of people who want to get the best of eachother in a verbal pissing match.

Remember the cartoon with the wile e coyote looking character, and the sheep dog, and they clocked in, and the one tried to steal the sheep, and the sheep dog would foil him all day, then at the end of the night.. they'd clock out. Then they'd say.. 'gnight fred, see ya tomorrow' and the like? That happens here.

Well I'm clocking out of this thread.... see you tomorrow.. Haha.

Oscar

You "think" you know all about all kinds of stuff, but when it comes to actual application, you have seemed to be no better then most of the beginers. (please do play with me, you have no experience with cars, I have seen your lilly soft hands, they nave never seen labor)

You've killed monitors, you've burned them. And have had no real breakthrus. Please remember, thats normal for a beginer. So the value of all that education is?

Of course, it hopefully will be of great value in your chosen field. But it simply does not apply here.

I am also a good example, you fellas like to point out how, lets be nice, uneducated I am, yet, I am cutting edge in keeping and producing monitors. I invented many of the techniques and protocals for the successful keeping and breeding of monitors. I also, have no problem shipping, because I have experience.

I guess what I am trying to say is, it does not take a rocket scientist to do this. You need to understand the limits and values of your education. There are times knowledge is a roadblock and times when its a avenue of success. The problem lays in how you use it. Again, thats a decision to be made, and as far as I can tell, you educated types seem to have problems making decisions at least with monitors. FR

I actually do know quite a bit about cars. I've used my hands more than most of my peers.

Yeah I've screwed up with monitors, I never said I was a great almighty keeper, I've never said I'm anything more than a beginner, so thats not really a big deal is it?

I wouldn't say you're cutting edge, nature kicks your butt at making monitors from the ground up

I don't really see the point in arguing with you about something you don't have. So lets not argue about education Have a good one.

Your not so smart after all.

You said,
"I actually do know quite a bit about cars. I've used my hands more than most of my peers". hahahahahahaha what does that mean?

To clear that up, I worked for a couple years as a auto mechanic. But, to other auto mechanics, I am a novice. So you know how autos really work??????

You said.
"I wouldn't say you're cutting edge, nature kicks your butt at making monitors from the ground up"

Two things about that statement, one, developing techniques and protocals is totally about captivity, Why don't you know that? monitors in nature do not need any of that. And second, use your brain, many species are from below the ground up.

I do thank you for even attempting to put my husbandry on a level with natures, But wait, my monitors are very social and regularly multi-clutch. Does that make me better?????

Truth is, when we come to a forum and you challange me, you are comparing you to me. And in that case, there is no comparison, In the field of keeping and breeding monitors, you do not hold a candle. I do and see more in a single day, then you have ever seen. I dare to say, the sum of your entire life, does not compare to my average day.

With that in mind, what would be your base to even type a single word?

I will say, for not understanding monitors, what so ever, I sure have accomplished a lot. I have seen babies hatch, every week for over ten years, hmmmmmmmmmm thats a lot of "not" understanding there bub.

lastly, you do not have to say your anything more then a beginer, Its your actions that do that. You seem to want to attack, get in conflicks, as if you know something. Indeed, you may be very intelligent, just not here, in this field, at this time. Hmmmmm FR

I wish i could live just one of those Frank days...
Ian
-----
buy the ticket, take the ride...

I believe I'm more well rounded than most of my peers. I beleive I've used my hands more than most people my age. Thats what I was saying.

You're right about the monitors being below ground, but plenty are arborial right?

As for social all my monitors are alone so I can't tell you if they're social in my captive situation or not. If you'd like to send me another pair of tristis, and a trio of ackies I'll be sure to compare them to my current animals, and confirm your shipping talents I'll report back to you, and even post the results online. It'll be fun, email and I'll give you my address.

Btw thanks for calling me stupid haha. I didn't really want to compare myself to you, you're a bit older, and have had a bit more time to get the accomplishments you tout. At 23 I SHOULD be a beginner should I not? I don't go for conflict I just try to participate. We don't always have to agree do we?

Have fun, FR, I wish more success for you.

O

"You're right about the monitors being below ground, but plenty are arborial right?"

Why are you asking I thought you knew it all already?

"At 23 I SHOULD be a beginner should I not?"

I am only 26 so who cares, age has little to do with it. It's more of what you have done with that time you have had.

"I don't go for conflict I just try to participate."

Really? hmmmm ( remember R.T.F.A.) could of fooled me.

"We don't always have to agree do we?"

Wow do you always like stealing my lines? I already said that in an earlier post, or does it only count when you so called SMART GUYS SAY IT?

I'm not smart clearly. You're really the smart guy. Just ignore me, it appears I have nothing to offer you.

btw i never eluded to your intelligence or experience I have no idea who you are.

Btw rtfa is a rather popular acronym on slashdot.org so there ya go but you knew that right? Told ya I had nothing to offer

Is that where you hang out alot is it?

Go figure

You see, your agenda is popping up in your head. I did not call you stupid, I merely pointed out, you have not accomplished much in the field of monitors. That my friend, has nothing to do with how smart you are.

Also, how well rounded you think you are, is silly, this forum is not about rounded. Its about monitors. The whole point and meaning of this little exercise is. All you education, all your understanding, all your well roundedness, is meaningless in this field.

You can read, see, think any old thing you want. You can make all the connections and sense you want with all that. The problem is keeping monitors is a practiced field. You have to DO it, not think it. Even more important, you have to do it, with living animal/s. Their life or death or success, is controlled by your actions, not your thoughts. Do you understand that? They are controlled by what you do, actually do, not what you think or read, or are told. Please read this paragraph over and over.

This is exactly my problem with the likes of DK and Sam, and you. You fellas somehow think, its about thinking and how smart you are. Its not. Its only about WHAT YOU DO. You have to actually do something. Now the sad part, you have to do it right. If not, the poor individual animal suffers. Not me, not your teacher, not your parents, your poor captive animal.

Now if you're smart, you could see this part coming. If you accept keeping monitors is only about what you do, then to gain accolades or to be called successful, you must actually have done something. You know, the accomplishments that are considered good and valuable, have to be past tense. They have to be done. Again, not thought. "I could have done that", IF only.

Now you should understand why I have heated discussions with you and DK and Sam, while all of you may be huge fatheaded geniuses, all of you have not done anything. Not the things considered important to these forums. So, all of you may be stupid, but its only because you think your smart, when your in a field that you have to do something to be smart. Its a field where your thoughts are practiced. They must produce results to be considered valid. I really hope you get this.

Those other folks are very smart, except, they are in the wrong field. They should be in theoretical monitor keeping. FR

Someone actually check the temps of were between 83-95f. The subject was brought up a while back when some people believed a friend of mine cooked 2 animals in delivery with 2 heat packs in a box about 15x24x15 inches. The sender and my friend both wasted several more heat packs to check that theory out, at room temperature (68-73f), one put 12 in a box with insulation and one small air hole on each end for an hour to 24 hours checking the temps in there constantly, the surface of the packs never exceeded 95f, the box stayed between 79-84f. I dont know which heat packs get to 130f but every heat pack specified for animal transport (24-40-60 hour packs) none get near that hot.

It could be 130F at the point of combustion, but not enough heat is produced to extent the area heated.

As you have seen, the temps drop off even before leaving the heatpack covering. If its cold out, it would take a whole lot of heatpacks to overheat or use up all the oxygen.

The danger is, if the box is exposed to heat, then the heatpack can increase the heat rapidly.

In reality, it may be a wash as to the benefits of heatpacks. If you ventilate the box enough to fuel the heatpacks, then if its cold out, the cold air will overpower the heatpacks.

This is one reason to use more factors then the temps where the box is headed.

For instance, we do not ship in temps below 25F, the reason is, most cold tolerant monitors will not die or be harmed at 25F, even without heatpacks. Cold sensitive species like, storrs, timors, or many of the indicus group, should not be shipped it temps below freezing. Even better, not below 40F. That way, you do not have to depend on something working or not. FR