Lisa,
I think we need to have some agreement on semantics to keep these discussions from going astray and to keep from comparing apples to oranges, which is especially difficult when this is largely a national discussion where your perception of what a “native species” is changes from state to state. I use the term “exotic” to describe species from outside the US. I use the term “native species” to refer to herps kept/bred in the same state as where they naturally occur, and thus are often protected by State game and/or fish laws. The new term I think we should use is “domestic species”, which is a species that is native to some part of the US, but not native to the particular state where the breeder/herper is located that owns the animal. For example, breeding a California kingsnake in California is an entirely different issue when the breeder is located in, let’s say, Ohio. In California, the Cal king would be considered a native species and is thus illegal to breed, but in Ohio the Cal king is a domestic species, but legally it is considered just another exotic species.
OK, how does this relate. Exotic and domestic herp species breeding is largely not a problem in most states. The problem arises when people want to breed native species, and that is where the Falconer model comes in, and the Falconer model could also be applied to the breeding of Endangered, and thus Federally Protected Species also. The key point to the Falconers model is closing the “feedback loop” to wild populations (i.e. actually being able to have some positive impact on native herps, which so many herpers say they want to do). The Falconers have a successful program, and they are comprised of private persons, not zoos, that are able to breed, sell and occasionally re-release CB individuals back into the wild, and this is what many, but not all, herpers say they want to be able to do but can’t because of the restrictions placed on them. The Falconers have waded through tighter restrictions than herpers have to endure, and they have been successful at obtaining breeding permits, which herpers have had difficulty doing. Falconers have been able to gain enough credibility with the authorities, which I’m sorry to say herpers mostly lack (and we pretty much all know why), to be able to breed protected native species and even sell them for a profit. The comparison to what some herpers say they want to accomplish is obvious, which is why I tossed it out there for discussion only. No it’s not a perfect fit, but it serves as a point of discussion, and that is all I intended it to be.
Now we’ll go back to me… yet again! The us, we, they, you, etc. are all pronouns that I have used. The exact use depends on the context in which I used it. For example, above I say, “actually being able to have some positive impact on native herps, which so many herpers say THEY want to do.” I have not said, nor do I even think it is necessarily a good idea, that I want to CB native species and re-release them back into the wild. In other words, take my use of pronouns in context, and I think you will often find that I am differentiating between my views and those of what I think is the majority view in the herp community, and remember, I like everybody else can make a mistake when typing too, especially when you type as much as I have on this forum over the last month, so I may have written ‘you’ instead of ‘we’, but do such little things really change my ideas and/or the perspective I am trying to share with people?
And the “Yanking your chain” comment was sarcasm on my part because I was tired of people jumping on me, not my ideas. In hindsight, I probably should have picked a different screen name, but at the time I thought it was funny because I had just read a post by someone who said, “I better not say too much because you know the Feds read these forums,” and as I have said, my nickname is Bubba. If ya can’t take a joke, life ain’t worth living, but I think the core problem people have with me is not my “pen name,” it is my perceived motives for commenting on this forum. If we assume for a moment that I am who I say I am, and let’s review what I have said about myself, which is; I’ve been a herper for over 35 years, and I have served in a professional capacity for 25 plus years dealing with wildlife conservation and wildlife law enforcement issues, I have many degrees in fields related to my job including biology (i.e. the ‘more letters behind my name than are in it’ comment), I keep and breed many species in captivity, but I am personally against the wild collection of herps because I think we have enough specimens in captivity right now to support the herp industry through captive breeding, and I recognize that there are differences of opinion on this subject, so I do not support a total ban on the wild collection of herps, but I do support restrictions on the commercial collection of wild herps, and I think our ultimate goal as a community should be to eliminate the wild collection of herps, especially if the herp community wants to say they are for herp conservation, because as I have pointed out on many occasions, the herp community does not benefit wild populations by WC even if CB is the goal, it is still just removal and the “feedback loop” to benefit wild populations is not open to herp hobbyists. These views are, for the most part, not all that unusual in the herp community, and his is much more than I know about your views or your perspective Lisa or most of the other people participating on this forum. However, because I have stated I work on wildlife law enforcement issues, and because I have advanced degrees in biology, I may as well paint a target on my chest for people in the herp community to throw rocks at! And it would not matter if I used my real name or BB because the rocks would still be thrown just as hard. People are only using my false persona as the excuse for their actions instead of acknowledging their real motives for throwing rocks, because I am not the only person on this forum who uses a screen name different than my own, but generally speaking people don’t make it into such a big deal, and they certainly don’t ask others to “PROVE” that they are who they say they are. Let’s face it, the herp community seems to love to bash on wildlife law enforcement people, and you have to admit that the cowboy bravado expressed on this forum is a little over the top at times. I would love to see someone tell a traffic cop, to his face, “Your an idiot who is just trying fill your quota of tickets to justify your job, and besides, I know this road better than you, so I can go 98 mph if I want to!” My guess is that loud mouth jerk would find himself in handcuffs, but on this forum other people cheer these loudmouths on as if they are heroes of the cause even though they are the ones who are destroying it for the rest of us! The third favorite bashing target on this forum (I think PETA/HSUS is probably number two) are scientists, and with all the letters behind my name I qualify on that score as well. I don’t understand why so many people find scientists, who are people that dedicated them selves to the pursuit of knowledge, and who are frankly smart enough to have figured out a way to get paid to do what they love, to be worthy of being bashed as morons who need to be spoon fed reality by people who followed a different path in life and did not discipline themselves on a course of study, but then I’m not a big fan of bashing on people that can’t at least fight back, and I haven’t seen very many Game Wardens of scientists participating on this forum, have you? However, the loudmouths on this forum seem to think it is just fine to bash on people who are almost un-represented on this forum, and thus represent an easy target. Of course, all these loudmouths do is give the rest of ‘us’ herpers a bad name, because this cowboy attitude is all people outside the herp community see other than the whacko that kept a 10ft alligator in his bathtub and claimed to be a serous conservationist. I wonder why I suggested that herp clubs put together responsible pet ownership fairs as a way to improve our public image? Yep, I get bashed at work for keeping herps and associating with loudmouthed herpers in any way, and when I defend the position of the herp hobbyist, I get nailed to the cross and set on fire for defending the whacko smugglers, so you’ll forgive me if I get a little angry when I get bashed by the very people I get bashed for trying to protect at work!
Now, ask yourself what could possibly be my motives for putting my two cents in on this forum? If I’m just trying to mess with peoples heads, I would not go to all the trouble of trying to explain my position or give examples of what I mean, now would I? If I am just trying to gather information to bust people, telling people I am involved in law enforcement would be pretty stupid now wouldn’t it? If I am on this forum just to try and force the opinion of PETA down everyone’s throat, which I have been accused of being a member of many times so far (Great! Now I get rocks thrown at me for representing the top three favorite bashing targets), then why have I talked about how dangerous PETA really is, and how they managed to effectively bring the scientific community to it’s knees? And why would I make suggestions on ways to deal with PETA’s criticisms in a positive way? If I was on this forum to try and shut down the wild collection, and captive breeding of herps, why would I say I captively breed herps, and why would I state that some people do have some valid reasons for collecting wild herps? So what’s left in the way of possible motives I could have for putting my two cents in on this forum? Is it possible that I am who I say I am, and that I am just trying to present a different perspective to the legal problems the herp community is trying to grapple with because as a herper they impact me as well? Is it also possible that I am tired of being bashed by herpers because I am involved in the wildlife legal process even though I am trying to promote laws that make sense and still allow herpers to keep and breed herps and I want to strike back a bit to alleviate some of my frustration with how much more difficult my job is because of these loudmouthed jerks? You decide, because in the end, it doesn’t matter what name I use, what my motives are, what I say, or how I say it, some people on this forum are going to throw rocks at the bulls-eye I have painted on my chest. It is up to you to decide if I have any valid points in the opinions, perspective and facts that I write about. If you think I am completely full of bovine hay residue, fine, ignore me or disagree with me, but I have just as much right to post my opinions as the mysterious M5. I wonder, did you spend as much time reading and evaluating all of M5’s posts as you did mine? Perhaps, I have more credibility and influence than I thought, or perhaps I just scare you more because deep down you know I am right about the bleak future of our hobby if we don’t clean-up our act. I don’t worry about other peoples motives very much because I can’t do anything to change them, but I can sure be honest with myself about what my motives, goals and actions are, and I can stand up for what I think is right. You can do the exact same thing, but without the bulls-eye painted on your chest.
Big Brother
