Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It seems to me that the eastern black king is under represented when it comes to discussions on the eastern Lampropeltis. I love all of the getula myself. Often times the literature that is out there in the king snake books have rather negative commentary when they touch on nigra. It is usually condenced in a little blurb that somehow insinuates they are undesirable in disposition and in coloration. I don't know what they base this on, but in my mind its balony! L.g.nigra is not the red headed step child of the getula complex. Anyone that has first hand experience with them can attest to this. This is a pic of one of my sons and his nigra. This is a large (just under 5') male that is as docile as can be except at feeding time when it is slamming rats! Any other nigra fans out there?

Here is another monster black king as seen in the field here in KY last year. As you can see, this snake is quite robust. This is typical of L.g.nigra, which is in contrast with what the literature usually has to say. I have read things referring to them as "thin" and "smallish" when compared to other getula. With out a doubt, they are not quite as large as easterns and florida kings, but they are far from smallish. I field measured this snake at 54", and it was without a doubt several inches larger than this as it had a couple of bends that I didn't account for.

Here is another king that I photographed in the field last year. This large king had obviously just dined on another large snake. This is one of 54 nigra that we recorded in the field in KY last year.

Here is a look at another nigra. These snakes often have a irredecent glossy black shine to them.

The little ones are strongly patterned upon hatching. With time, they go through an ontogenetic change in which most of the dorsal pattern is lost. Hope you enjoyed!

hey phil,

its greg from TF.com, you know im a fan of these guys. im making a trip to kentucky hopefully in late april, maybe we can try and hook up and find some black kings. sweet pics as always.

greg

Thanks Greg! Hey, no doubt bud, give me a holler before you come up. It would be good to get out with you.

great pics phil totally agreed ,nigra are very underated, and great snakes this is one of my breeders from huntsville ala.
thomas

Thank you Thomas. That is a fine looking nigra you have! I wondered what the black kings looked like from other parts of the range. Thanks for posting a pic.

My favorite pic of yous ! Yes these are under appreciated as nobody is getting these into the market. Hey Phil maybe its better they stay underappreciated look what happened to the Cornsnake ! LOL. Great pics man you should throw up a website like similar to mine as they are very diverse and have a broad range.

Keith
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Are you going to make one for locality Florida kings? I've heard you mention it a couple times. I could definitely contribute to that, and I'd be interested in seeing other people's locality photos.

Ive thought of it but right now Im adding a page on Apalachicola Kings with Sean Belanger. Maybe this summer I can work on it as Floridana are one of my favorite snakes period right up there with Easterns.

Keith
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We need a good locality photo page for getula in general. Seems like you have a good start to it already.

How much work could it be, lol. Just think....Jeff B. started with a little information page about alterna and look what it grew into!
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Chris Harrison

I would love to see that ! If someone wanted to put it together I would help with the design etc... We could knock out one sub at a time. Anyone ??? I dont know how to build websites myself but I can design them make headers, buttons etc... but I dont know how to do code. My brother in law does all that for me . I wouldnt dare ask him to do anymore than he does as he does it for free So if anyone has some code skill Im more than willing to lend my design expertise to a project.

Keith
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Looks like we have a need to pull our collective resources together. Like Keith, I am no computer guy, but maybe somebody out there can help us pull this together. I have dozens of locality pic's of nigra. All KY, but they are locality pics on the county level. It sounds like there are others out there with locality pics of floridana, holbrooki and other getula complex snakes. What Keith has done with easterns is nothing short of phenomenal. Could you imagine how great it would be to have it all come together on one site? So what do you think Keith? Interested?

Yeah Im in. I would like to do it with the same format that my new site looks. Its not done yet but it is AWESOME ! I cant wait for it to be done. So if anybody has any web building expertise and some free time lets hear from you.

Keith
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I certainly have enough photos and scale counts of them from seven of the nine states in which they are known to occur,and probably know more about these animals than most. If I ever do that Keith, I'll need your help, I'm a total boob when it comes to computer knowledge beyond the most basic aspects.

Bart Bruno

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Thanks Keith! I know what you mean about the corn snake thing. I love them myself, but I keep only strictly locality corns. KY locality to be exact. Big surprise there I guess!

Maybe one of these days I can talk you into including nigra on your site. For that matter, it would be very cool to have floridans and holbrooki there too.

Keep up the good work with those awesome eastern kings!

That's a nice snake Phil. I like them. They certainly don't seem to be well represented in the hobby though. My sister lives in their natural range and she has told me the ones she has found have been of very nice disposition.
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Tim

Thanks Tim, my experience has been similar. You come across the occasional biter, but most are very tractable.

Those nigra are cool snakes, thats for sure! I finally got a pair of Hopkins Co. kings from Dwight and they're doing great! I'll have to get some photos up soon I guess.

Van

Hey Van, glad to hear the Hopkins county kings are doing well for you. Some can be a little reluctant to feed as neonates, but once they get going, they become machines!

I would like to see some pics as those guys grow. I have seen some fairly dark kings in Hopkins county, but last year we found one that was an young adult male that had a distinct chain pattern on it. Very interesting snake. Thats a neat habitat there too. Plenty of swamp, cottons, rat snakes and kings.

The black and the speckled king both get a pretty bad rap in the hobby, but the speckled is what I grew up with. Some individuals are indeed fairly jumpy, but they tame down and make great pets that are really hardy and easy to care for. Another king that is not worked with much and is a really great snake is the prarie king, they were the prize when we hunted snakes as youngsters. Enjoyed seeing the pictures of the blacks.

Thanks,

John Cherry
Cherryville Farms

Cherryville Farms - Reptiles

Thanks Phil for the wonderful pics of your eastern black kings. I wish I did see more Nigra for sale. Very robust looking Kings. Don't know if you've had Mexican blacks, but was curious if you thought the Eastern black kings were more stout/robust then their Mexican black cousins?
Having family in Ky., I used to spend alot of time camping near columbia, by the Green River area. I'm sure that's a hotbed for nigra. Take care,

Steve

Thanks Steve, glad you enjoyed! I have never kept the Mexican black king, but I have seen plenty. Very beautiful snake IMO. I do think that nigra is a larger and more robust snake than nigrita. The symphony of color and pattern throughout the getula complex is truly amazing!

Thanks for the kind words John. I agree, the speckled king is another member of the getula complex that gets very little positive print. I think a well marked holbrooki is an absolutely stunning snake!

Good point on the prairie kings too. They are another one of those overlooked snakes that terrific snakes to keep. They have always been one of my favorites. They feed voraciously, are calm, and have a quiet beauty.

Here is a pic of my male KY locale prairie king!! '03 hatchling as well. Courtesy of Dwight Good!

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1.0 Corn snake
1.0 Black rat snake
1.0 Albino Black rat snake
1.0 Everglades rat snake
0.1 Yellow rat snake
1.1 California king snake
1.0 Prairie king snake
0.1 Black king snake

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Hi!

I love that snakes
Great pics - enclosed is my 2 year old female.

Best regards

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snakes.pl

Thats a fine looking king there, but it doeasn't look like a nigra to me. Is it possible it has some desert king influence in it? It looks almost like a nigrita x splendida. Cool snake!

Hi!

The picture was taken almost a year ago - now, the yellow dots almost completely disappeared. So I think it's nigra.
But I am not 100% sure about this snake - I have 2 snakes that I am not sure.
I will post a pic of the second one - maybe someone will be able to help me identyfying them

Best regards
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snakes.pl

I've had them from Birmingham, Alabama, and Scioto County,Ohio. I have also found them in southern Illinois. All but one were quite mellow in temperment. A beautiful animal, and yes, one that is grossly underrated. I must say Phil, between Pines,Corns,Kings, and field work, I'm quite impressed. You and I think along the same lines, we should compare notes between Kentucky and Delaware Corns.

Bart Bruno

I do find locality snakes to be of great interest. Its reassuring to know that there are a few of us purist still out there. I would be interested to hear more about the Delaware population of corns. I have wondered how they compare with other northern populations such as KY in regards to blotch count, habitat preference and that sort of thing.

I would be interested in comparing notes with you on Pituophis also. I can be reached at,

My e-mail address

pspeak5@msn.com

I've always been very interested in nigra. Unfortunately, the only one I've ever seen was a DOR in Land Between the Lakes in KY. I live in Illinois and I know people who find them in Shawnee forest in Southern Illinois. From the pictures I've seen, they aren't near as dark and show a little more speckling.
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Martin Whalin
My Email

Quotes from guys named Carl:

"Science stops at the frontier of logic. Nature does not, she thrives in areas as yet untrodden by theory."
-Carl Jung

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld

Martin, there is a fair amount of variability among populations of nigra. Some show considerable speckling, while others are jet black dorsally. Most of the ones that I have seen in western KY had a fair amount of pattern on them.

I found a DOR nigra in Land between the Lakes before as well. Of all I've seen, it was by far the handsomest animal yet. The pattern was strongly suggestive of the animal illustrated in Conant's Field Guide.

Bart Bruno

Well the one I saw in Western KY was smashed into the road belly up so I'm not sure what it's dorsal pattern looked like.
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Martin Whalin
My Email

Quotes from guys named Carl:

"Science stops at the frontier of logic. Nature does not, she thrives on ground as yet untrodden by theory."
-Carl Jung

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld

and here is a pic of my little hopkins county Nigra female!

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1.0 Corn snake
1.0 Black rat snake
1.0 Albino Black rat snake
1.0 Everglades rat snake
0.1 Yellow rat snake
1.1 California king snake
1.0 Prairie king snake
0.1 Black king snake

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Great looking nigra Brian, like that little calligaster you posted also.

I have very fond memories of my days spent looking for snakes and finding what we then called " black snakes ". I was fortunate enough to live in a area where I had many acres of woods to play in and explore ( I feel sorry for kids living in subdivisions today) there were many piles of old lumber and 4X8 metal signs with a 2x4 frame that made a raised area underneath that was great for snakes. We always wandered why most of what we would find were our "black snakes" and large blue racers, I later came to realize the kings ate everything else
I had no idea that what I was doing then would be the beginning of a life long obsession, so when I see those absolutely beautiful snakes it makes me smile and remember the simple pleasures in life.
Sorry for the rambling.
Thanks for the pictures Phil
Your Bullitt County neighbor
David

Hi David, thanks for the kind words and and sharing memories. It's interesting to me that of the number of black king sites that I have, they are often one of the only snake species regularly seen at those sites. It is my opinion that the black king is doing very well in KY, and fortunately they are still one of the snakes that you expect to see when spending the day in the field. I can occasionally even see one in my yard here in Jefferson county. Many of the rural people that I have spoke with around the state recognize the king snake as beneficial and spare its life when encountered. Like you, there will always be a special place for the king snake I grew up with.

has been availability.

Somewhere around 20 years ago I was really into getula and tried to get pairs of all the subspecies or wild morphs. I easily managed to get easterns, FL, CA, desert, speckleds, yuma, blotched, etc. I spent years checking every price list from every dealer/wholesaler I could find and only found 1 male nigra in all that time. They were simply unavailable. When I asked the dealers, they said there was no demand and so they generally didn't stock them. This was several years before expos, the internet, etc.

The one I finally got was a nice snake, but still had a lot of banding. I spent several years trying to find a mate and couldn't and then my tastes moved on to other snakes.
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Chris Harrison

Very good point Chris. I don't know if I have ever seen nigra on a herp price list or at a reptile show. I have bred my pairs for years, but never had any commercial interest in them. I either gave hatchlings away to friends or released them behind my house where the parent snakes came from.