Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just bought a 50 gallon tank with a two side doors and an one inch hole on the bottom for draining. I haven't set up the tank yet but I plan on building a waterfall out of lava rocks and a small pond area for aquatic plants and animals. I also just bought a Mr. Moisture misting system to help keep the humidity high and the moisture for live plants at the right level.

Basically, my plans are to create a tropical rainforest type environment but I am not sure what type of tree frog would be the best fit for my setup and the most fun to keep. I intially wanted to avoid this decision all together by keeping a community tank of tropical tree frogs but I do not want to take on the risks that come with mixing animals. I have heard, however, from many specialists, that mixing RETFs, Tiger Legs, and Amazon Clown Tree Frogs is okay as long as they are the same size and the total does not exceed 8 tree frogs in the enclosure. Is there any truth to this?

Now, if mixing is completely out of the question, I obviously need to pick one type of tree frog out of the three but I have my concerns about each one. Please help me answer my concerns

RETF - 1) How many can I have in this enclosure? 2) They are nocturnal and I have a reptile night light but will any light in the room prevent them from eating or moving? Basically, do all ligths need to be turned off to see these guys move at night?

Tiger Legs - 1) Are these guys out of the question since I plan on have a pond and just spent a lot of money on a misting system? I hear different things about their humidity and moisture likes and dislikes. 2) How many to a tank?

Clown Tree Frogs - 1) These guys are small, so how many can I keep in a tank? 2) Anyone have any other info? Can't seem to find too much on these wonderful Tree Frogs.

General Questions - What is the best way to generate heat in any vivarium? I have a combo light already, a heat mat, and monitoring equipment but I am still worried that my tank will not be hot enough. This is especially the case since I plan on the keeping all of my animals in the basement where it is rather damp and cool. I am afraid that this will be a problem in the winter. Keeping them upstairs may also be a problem in the summer because of the constant use of the air conditioner.

Thanks for any advice...Sorry my entry is long! Just want to do all I can before I purchase any animals.

I posted the pics of the vivarium I keep retf, tiger leg tf, & green tf...along with a spotted salamander & some fish. I don't use any heat, it tends to stay warm in the room.

...completely inappropriate setup for an Ambystoma. I have a hard time believing there is enough heat for a tropical treefrog, yet cool enough (
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Believe it!! Been going strong for almost 2 years. I have 2 degrees in biology...I have a pretty good idea of what I am doing. If you're ever in GA stop by my class and take a look.

I've got two degrees in Bio as well. Did any of your studies include the natural histories of Ambystoma sp? If you are ever in VA, stop by my work and take a look at some Ambystoma sp on chillers.

http://www.caudata.org/cc/faq/FAQhou.shtml
"Tiger salamanders sometimes seem to "like" swimming. However, this is not a natural behavior, and may be caused by a lack of suitable digging substrate or hiding places in the land portion of the tank. You would never find an adult tiger salamander swimming in the wild (except during breeding). Anecdotal evidence suggests that tiger salamanders kept in semi-aquatic setups are more prone to disease in the long run."

http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Ambystoma/A_tigrinum.shtml
"As with the larvae, excessive temperatures should be avoided. Temperatures over 78°F (25.6°C) for extended periods of time are potentially life threatening. The best temperature range would be the same as for the larval salamanders."
"The aquarium should be unheated and not allowed to reach temperatures in excess of 75°F (23.9°C) with an ideal range between 65°F (18.3°C) to 72°F (22.2°C)."

And more importantly...
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/Mixing_disasters.shtml
click here for the link

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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Thanks for the links...however, if you read my post I stated it is a SPOTTED salamander in with the retf, gtf, tltf. He hides in the big hollowed out cork bark in the middle of the tank. I only see him come out if I happen to be at work late. I do keep a tank with a tiger salamander along with fire bellies as well. That should make you really have a cow! The only problem I have had in almost 2 years with that setup is the 2 salamanders fought over a new hide spot, one took a nasty bite to the face and ended up not recovering. That was about 3 weeks ago. I only saw the tigers in the water a few times, usually early in the morning, they are too busy digging up the rocks and moss. I have also witnessed the firebellies amplexing & calling a lot. (Especially lately). As far as the temperature, the tiger/fire belly tank is unheated. Temps are within about 68 (on a cold night) to about 76 (on a hot day). The fire bellies don't seem to mind the company...the salamander has never taken a nip at his roommates either. And if I travel to VA, I will visit your museum. By the way ...my studies are in physiology.

I've provided information on the tiger salamanders because it is a little consequence in their captive husbandry.

This next point may seem like I am stretching just to win an argument, but any professional in the field will agree. Amphibians have amazing abilities to recover from massive injuries despite their delicate nature. The fact that the injured tiger salamander did not recover may be an indicator of secondary stresses inhibiting healing response. Why was the salamander not taken to a veterinarian for treatment?

I certainly am not interested in creating a heated argument, as the forum regulars have had to, on a regular basis, instruct people on the dangers of mixing species. The second to last link I provided in my last post really should be sufficient evidence. Although two years is impressive, it does not represent the entire life span of any of the species you listed, nor can it be used as primary evidence for the mixing of species. Remember, people have lived in holes in the ground and tortured on a regular basis for more than two years. This living situation is obviously not ideal, but the factors necessary for sustaining life are provided but does not represent what the environment for a human truly should be.

If you have a genuine interest in the care of the amphibians that you have, you'll recognize that keeping multiple species together has only a marginal benefit to the owner, and absolutely no benefit to the animals involved. There are so many more advantages to keeping animals in separated tanks.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

My posts were made to answer a question about an area of husbandry in which I have some experience. (See pictures & previous posts.) My posts were not in anyway argumentative, until this one! I take issue with anyone who questions my "genuine interest in the care" of any of the animals I keep, especially from someone with VERY limited knowledge of me or my collection. I pointed out my creditials simply to inform others that I am not some 12 year old who's herp experience is gigging bullfrogs in a backyard pond.
The links you provided contain common knowledge. As far as one of the links containing "sufficient evidence" of the "dangers" of interspecies housing, it was all anecdotal, NO solid research at all. And I know research...it is how I got all those nifty initials on the end of my name. I have yet to see any CONCLUSIVE RESEARCH stating that housing these species together is dangerous. One could argue that captivity is in and of itself a "stressor". One could also argue that a noncaptive (wild) situation is also stressful. Mother nature doesn't always provide an "ideal" situation; for example, predation, parasitism, natural disasters & weather issues, not even to mention human disturbance and pollution.
To answer your question about the injury to the salamander and its inability to recover from a bite being an "indicator of secondary stress". I would propose it was actually due to having over 1/4 of his face bitten off in a territorial dispute with a cagemate. The salamander was treated with neosporin & removed to a "hospital tank" (a $1 5L rubbermaid box placed in a $3000 biotronette environmental chamber!) My boss (a wise and compassionate man) is not likely to call in a substitute teacher at 8am so I can rush an injured salamander to the vet. Nor am I too excited at the prospect of running up a vet bill to have the vet tell me to "continue with the treatment". I have extensive knowledge in this area too. Every sick or injured animal a student or faculty member finds is brought to me. So I have made enough trips to the vet's to have a pretty good idea about a course of treatment for an injured salamander.
While I respect that you are obviously an educated and conscientious admirer of animals, please be sure other people with different experiences and opinions may also share those qualities.

While the responses to my original question are helpful, they don't seem to answer what I need to know. Please, can someone help me out and drop the debate over who is right. Both of you have made great points and have the experience and credentials to support your arguments. However, the debate over mixing species can go on and on. As stated on many websites, mixing should be left for experienced individuals and this seems to be the case in this situation. I, on the other hand, do not plan on mixing species and want to keep one type of tree frog. Now...can someone help me out with my questions?

Sorry...here's some more info:

...“Phyllomedusa hypocondrialis - Tiger-leg Monkey Frogs - the Northern or rainforest-dwelling Tigerleg (the Southern or Waxy Tigerleg haven't bred for some years; if they do we'll put them back on the page) easy keepers/ easy breeders, can handle it a little on the hotter, drier, bask-ing-er side of rainforest they are nonetheless an excellent companion to Red-Eyes,…”...“Reach 1 1/2-2". True "monkeyfrog" (people-like) creeping habit, rarely jumping/sticking (like RETF) to locomote. Quiet, clucking call. Very easy to breed producing either taco or cigar leaf-folding nests.”
http://www.mascarino.com/VariousTigerleg.html

Agalychnis callidryas
“Habitat:
This species tends to do better in a community. Tall The Arboreal Tanks are the best bet for these guys. Oh, and also be sure to provide a means for them to get out of the water pond if they fall in. While they can swim, providing a branch or something is generally a good idea.
Read more information on this subject in the Housing Your Pet Frog section.
The temperature should be about 78-85° during the day and about any where from 66 to 77° at night. The humidity should be kept around 80-100%.”
http://allaboutfrogs.org/info/species/redeye.html

“Temperature/Humidity: Red-eyes thrive in a temperature range of 75 to 85F, with a drop of up to ten degrees at night. Humidity is a controversial subject with these frogs. During breeding, they prefer the humidity level around 90 percent, and some hobbyists keep them this moist all the time. Others, citing that the frogs experience lower humidity over much of the year, keep them between 60 and 75 percent relative humidity, raising it during the summer.
Housing: Although Red-eyes do not need large terrariums, they do need tall terrariums. The ideal terrarium would he taller than it is long and wide. A tight-fitting screen top is necessary if you use an aquarium as your cage. To maintain proper humidity, you may want to cover a small part of the screen, but keep a substantial area open to the air. These are not territorial frogs, but they still should not be overcrowded. As a ruIe-of-thumb, house no more than a pair or trio for every ten gallons of volume in the enclosure. The enclosure for these frogs should be quite complex, allowing them to climb, hunt, and hide as they would in nature. This means incorporating plants (live are preferred), branches, cork bark. and a substantial water bowl into the decor.”
http://www.redeyedtreefrog.com/Red-Eyed/red-eyed.html

Hope this helps you out!

Thanks for the great and helpful advice!!! Hate to push it but do you have any expert information about Amazon Clown Tree Frogs and their ability to live in my setup?

I am not familiar with the clown frogs care. I think they are pretty little frogs. I would do a yahoo search on them. There is surely someone who breeds them & can give you any info you need about them. A little warning about setting up your tank: Plant first, plant heavy! Give the plants a few weeks to acclimate & start to "throw down roots". Don't put several frogs in all at once. Start with 1 or 2 if they were already housed together. Follw strict quarantine procedures to prevent anything nasty from being introduced into your setup. Good luck & be sure to post some pics of your setup when you can.

I currently keep Clown Tree Frogs both Hyla leucophyllata (South American) and Hyla ebraccata (Central American). You can look through my pictures I have pictures of both species posted. I keep mine in a fairly high humidity environment 80-90% with temps ranging from low 70s to around 80. fairly well planted terrarium. Feeding can be a little rough for mine will only readily take crickets and they have to be about 1/4" which is hard to find around here and I can't really raise crickets where I'm at now so I have to order them or go to shows and buy them in bulk. They are great frogs. This guys has bred them but I haven't heard anything from him lately as to whether he has any to sell.
http://www.geocities.com/frogaddictions/
You could try contacting him with information about breeding.

Thanks for the advice...How many clown tree frogs do you own and how many do you keep in your enclosure? Also, are these guys expensive or do they cost about the same as RETF? Lastly, I am assuming that you do not mix them with RETF? Thanks!

I had 2 Hyla leucophyllata but one died while left in the care of someone else. I have a well planted 15H that could easily house 4 or 5 (in my opinion. No you can't mix this species with a red eye it would be easy prey for them with them reaching about an inch in length.

you want to talk about mixing i have 1 gtf 2 fire bellied toads 3 green anoles all housed togeather and very happy conditions conditions conditions!

Especially in newts and salamanders, regeneration is not uncommon. I believe even the eye can be regrown if damaged.

As for Abystomid sals being kept in a tropical tank with many tropical species, I have yet to see or hear about anyone catching an Abystomid out in the tropical weather. Even in areas where the weather could be considered semi-tropical, they will burrow to escape the forces. It is inconsequential as well wether you have a tiger, spotted, marbled, smallmouth, etc. salamander as they are all MOLE salamanders (which are known for the burrowing habits). It seems the best time to look for them is in the cool, damp weather which they seem to prefer. Hmmm...strange. But I guess tropical weather is better huh? Bathing suits year round...

2 years, as Colchicine pointed out, is nothing. Come and tell us how it is working out after 10 years. I doubt your results will be as favorable as they appear to be right now. Just like keeping an obese frog. You may not see any negative effects for years, but one day it catches up. But good luck. I believe you will be needing it.

And for the record...I still do not see how the climate from the southern and eastern US where the GTF and Abystoma come from is even close to the climate from the equatorial, tropical areas that some of the species you have come from. Just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe you need a degree in geography to go along with your others
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I did catch a large smallmouth salamander in the early afternoon in mid july in Alabama. But then, it was also at the mouth of a cave that blew a steady 70 degree breeze from within, and released a cold-water stream...plenty of conditions to keep him nice and cool. Even in an Alabama summer. :-P
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0.0.1 Piebald Ball Python
1.1 Albino Nelson's Milks
0.1 Dumeril's Boa
0.0.1 Albino Corn
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LOL well, that is a fairly different scenario. I wonder if he also has a cave that blows a steady cool breeze directly on the salamanders. Hmmm...I guess it could be possible. Maybe I also stand on my head, drive a car, and fart the alphabet at the same time. Yet another of life's challenges huh?
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I know...but hey, at least now you can say you've never heard of it lol...
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0.0.1 Piebald Ball Python
1.1 Albino Nelson's Milks
0.1 Dumeril's Boa
0.0.1 Albino Corn
0.1 Mex Mex

Not thriving. I've previously kept 4 Spotted from metamorphs to adults for a few years. I used moist sphagnum moss w/ water dish & hand fed them Repti-min pellets. Released at capture site at 8" lengths.

I agree with the others; your salamander and tree frogs come from very different enviornments and would do better if they were housed seperately. Your spotted salamander is doing well because they are hardy salamanders and will tolerate being kept in a wide range of conditions. Being kept in unusually warm temperatures is not going to do any good for the salamander. It wouldn't be hard to move the salamander to a seperate cage and place it in a cooler area like your basement. On another note, nice terrarium. Is that two 20 gallon longs stacked on top of each other? It's an interesting idea that I might have to try sometime.

As for the original questions, I would recomend keeping one species in your terrarium. There won't be as large of a chance for potential problems if you stick to one species. You can heat terrariums a number of ways. Often just the standard flourescant light fixture is enough to keep the terrarium warm but it all depends on the room temperature that the tank is in. A low wattage infra-red heat lamp or ceramic heat emiter (sp?) could be used to heat the terrarium although they tend to dry things out a bit. In most of my cages I use heat pads attached to the side of the tank but that can cause problems for tree frogs. If you use a background like cork bark the inch of bark will prevent the side of the tank from getting too hot for the frog. You could also always buy a small electric heater and just heat the room that the cage is in. Good luck,
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Devin
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com
4.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Dwarf French Guiana'
1.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Powder Blue'
5.1 Mantella aurantiaca
2.1 Mantella crocea
0.0.2 Mantella madagascariensis
1.0 Ceratophrys cranwelli
1.0 Bufo americanus
0.0.1 Salamandra salamandra
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum
0.1 Chamaeleo calyptratus
0.1 Phelsuma dubia
1.0 Uroplatus ebenaui
0.0.1 Chrysemys picta belli
1.0 Terrapene carolina triunguis