Reptile & Amphibian Forums

>>I don't know why this won't post properly, but here goes anyways.......

Exotic and domestic herp species breeding is largely not a problem in most states. The problem arises when people want to breed native species, and that is where the Falconer model comes in...

Falconers have been able to gain enough credibility with the authorities, which I’m sorry to say herpers mostly lack (and we pretty much all know why)...

>>>General agreement here except for this line, "Falconers have been able to gain enough credibility with the authorities, which I’m sorry to say herpers mostly lack (and we pretty much all know why)" NO, we DON'T!!! Why can't you understand this? We don't know why all herpers are vilified by the actions of a few! Are all falconer's vilified by the authorities for the actions of a few falconers that break the law (and don't tell me no falconer has ever broken the law!) If you look at ALL herpers, ie. simple pet keepers with 6 turtles, through the average herp society hobbyist with with a dozen to 50 individual animals, through the hobbyist breeders, pet stores, commercial breeders, and importers/exporters... I'll bet the number of people who actually break the law is minimal. I'd be willing to guess ten percent.

Now we’ll go back to me… yet again! .......
However, because I have stated I work on wildlife law enforcement issues, and because I have advanced degrees in biology, I may as well paint a target on my chest for people in the herp community to throw rocks at!

>>My guess is that any wildlife law enforcement "bashing" that goes on is focused on those individuals within their ranks that are uneducated about herps and their area's herp laws, who are busting people based on interpretations of laws, and IDing of herps! Also those *cowboy* law enforcement officers that go "bust happy". And yes, people do make comments about traffic cops handing out speeding tickets to meet the quota and make money - and yes, it DOES happen! It probably does happen amongst wildlife officials too - should we villify all of *them* for the actions of a few? No, we shouldn't sink to their level!

The third favorite bashing target on this forum ....... are scientists......... I don’t understand why so many people find scientists, who are people that dedicated them selves to the pursuit of knowledge, and who are frankly smart enough to have figured out a way to get paid to do what they love, to be worthy of being bashed as morons who need to be spoon fed reality by people who followed a different path in life and did not discipline themselves on a course of study, but then I’m not a big fan of bashing on people that can’t at least fight back, and I haven’t seen very many Game Wardens of scientists participating on this forum, have you?

>>Why would a Game Warden participate on this board - they "don't like herpers" remember? Also, I have never heard a herper bash scientists - in fact most every herper I personally know *LOVES* scientists and science! First of all, hello *herpetology*, then there's biology, ecology, geology, biochem, paleontology, etc. etc.

>>And are you implying that herpers are non-educated, undisciplined hicks? Many of us have degrees - many of us even have *science* degrees, SO WHAT?! So where do *your* prejudices lie?

Of course, all these loudmouths do is give the rest of ‘us’ herpers a bad name, because this cowboy attitude is all people outside the herp community see other than the whacko that kept a 10ft alligator in his bathtub and claimed to be a serous conservationist. I wonder why I suggested that herp clubs put together responsible pet ownership fairs as a way to improve our public image? Yep, I get bashed at work for keeping herps and associating with loudmouthed herpers in any way, and when I defend the position of the herp hobbyist, I get nailed to the cross and set on fire for defending the whacko smugglers, so you’ll forgive me if I get a little angry when I get bashed by the very people I get bashed for trying to protect at work!

>>See, that's EXACTLY the problem - YOU are being pre-judged NEGATIVELY by *WILDLIFE OFFICIALS* even though YOU are *one of the "GOOD GUYS"* and *ONE of THEM!!!! Even though they PERSONALLY KNOW YOU!!! Don't you see a problem with that? I wonder how many other "good citizen herpers" they have either wrongly judged, accused, or whatever. It's pure prejudice. That's all. Don't judge all herpers by the whackos, "cowboys",or the criminals! What's so difficult about that?

>>The legal system says innocent until proven guilty - but law enforcement (Game, fish, whatever) seems to think guilty until proven innocent.

If I was on this forum to try and shut down the wild collection, and captive breeding of herps, why would I say I captively breed herps, and why would I state that some people do have some valid reasons for collecting wild herps?

>>You did say just that - you only changed your tune to make allowances for wc herps in response to the points I brought up.

It is up to you to decide if I have any valid points in the opinions, perspective and facts that I write about. If you think I am completely full of bovine hay residue, fine, ignore me or disagree with me, but I have just as much right to post my opinions as the mysterious M5. I wonder, did you spend as much time reading and evaluating all of M5’s posts as you did mine?

>>I choose to evaluate what and who I want, for my own reasons. Just as you do. My last post was intended to be a friendly "don't sweat it, this is why they are questioning you..." type of post. It certainly didn't require this type of response. I can totally understand having a thin skin due to the constant questioning.... but now you are alienating even those people who at least partly agree with you!

perhaps I just scare you more because deep down you know I am right about the bleak future of our hobby if we don’t clean-up our act.

>>You don't scare me - you have no idea what it takes to scare me.

>>I don't believe the herp hobby's future is *bleak*. I don't have to clean up *my* act - there's nothing to clean up. There are issues and concerns that must be addressed by the hobby as a whole, and a minority of herpers have to be dealt with to clean the tarnish off of the rest of us, true. We need to band together to prevent stupid legislation, and promote positive legislation. We need to get more species to successfully reproduce generation to generation within the hobby - then we can honestly consider ending wild collection. *Bleak* indicates to me - "give up, we've already lost". I don't believe that's the case here. We do have to fight for our "rights" to keep and breed our favorite animals.

>>You have exhausted my patience with this discussion. I tried to be civil throughout. You do have valid points, but by playing devil's advocate too well, I think you have successfully alienated even those you were seeking to ally yourself with. And that's truly unfortunate.

>>Lisa McCune

Lisa,
I am sorry that I have apparently angered you with my response to your post. I merely went through the issues you brought up and responded to them in turn, and I never disrespected you or your views, and that was not my intent! All I intended to do was explain my perspective on the issues that you brought up, but it seems you have taken that as a personal attack, and that was not what I intended to do, so I am sorry. I would like the opportunity to answer a couple of your question because I think they are good ones, and they get right to the heart of what I have been trying to do on this forum.
You Wrote:
>>>General agreement here except for this line, "Falconers have been able to gain enough credibility with the authorities, which I’m sorry to say herpers mostly lack (and we pretty much all know why)" NO, we DON'T!!! Why can't you understand this? We don't know why all herpers are vilified by the actions of a few! Are all falconer's vilified by the authorities for the actions of a few falconers that break the law (and don't tell me no falconer has ever broken the law!) If you look at ALL herpers, ie. simple pet keepers with 6 turtles, through the average herp society hobbyist with with a dozen to 50 individual animals, through the hobbyist breeders, pet stores, commercial breeders, and importers/exporters... I'll bet the number of people who actually break the law is minimal. I'd be willing to guess ten percent.
In Response:
If a falconer breaks the law, mistreats his birds or acts in an irresponsible manor, he looses his license at minimum, and thus he is no longer a falconer. If a herper breaks the law he pays a fine and/or jail time and goes back to being a herper. In the falconry community they keep each other inline so they don’t have problems with the authorities. In the herp community everyone does their own thing and pretends the actions of the other members of the community has no effect on them. A falconer keeps a bird that most people outside the world of falconry think are majestic. A herper keeps animals most people outside the herp community at minimum think are strange and many people are out right afraid of. You won’t see a red-tailed hawk sitting in it’s own filth for sale in a pet store, but you can easily find a sickly lizard sitting in it’s own filth in a pet store. I know we would like to believe people look for the good in things, but human nature dictates that most people see the problems with herps not the good things herpers do because they are exposed to more bad than good. In short, herpers like to look at the good things in the hobby and gloss over the bad things, but outside the herp community people see the bad things, and rarely if ever see the good things. My intention all the way along has been to get herpers to police their own ranks and clean up the problems that people on the outside see with our hobby before PETA and HSUS shut us down. This is a battle of public perception, and the herp community by its inaction is loosing badly!
You Wrote:
>>Why would a Game Warden participate on this board - they "don't like herpers" remember? Also, I have never heard a herper bash scientists - in fact most every herper I personally know *LOVES* scientists and science! First of all, hello *herpetology*, then there's biology, ecology, geology, biochem, paleontology, etc. etc.
In Response:
I’ve been here for just a short time and every time I put pen to paper I get bashed. The bashing I love best is when people accuse me of not looking at a problem from all perspectives when my intent is simply to present the other perspective to try and get people to find some common ground, so I am completely wrong on the issues because I present a different perspective that is totally invalid. The irony is wonderful!
As to the scientist bashing, let’s forget the rocks I’ve taken and check out the Monitor forum where Dr. Sam Sweet, who aside from being one or the world authorities on monitor lizards is also the past Editor of the Journal of Herpetology and a major figure in the field of herpetology, who put together a well thought out post about the chemistry of iron-based heat packs and how they scrub oxygen from the air, which he states could cause problems in shipping animals in closed containers. He even talks about why there probably has not been more reptile mortality associated with these heat packs (see A note about iron-based heat packs - SamSweet, Thu Feb 26 22:46:27 2004). In other words, Dr. Sweet presented a scientific solution to a potential explination to a question posed about shipping mortality. And to this effort a guy responded with sarcasm, and basically said you don’t know what your talking about because I ship animals using these heat packs all the time with no problems (see RE: A note about iron-based heat packs - JPsShadow, Thu Feb 26 23:42:22 2004), and then another guy bashes him with a lengthy post (see RE: From the, it only took a brain file - FR, Fri Feb 27 09:58:15 2004) that does everything but call Dr. Sweet a liar. And it is followed up by a guy who makes my point for me by saying “Don't open those in a small room, it may deplete the oxygen, make you retarded, and that could seriously affect your ability to get a Phd. hahahahahahaha This really is silly, heat packs are used for shipping fish, reptiles, amphibians, birds, and mammals. I do think birds and mammals need alot more oxygen than reptiles, but I don't have a Phd so you better not take my word for it. –Robert” (see Be careful Jody - RobertBushner, Fri Feb 27 13:19:34 2004). This doesn’t sound like love to me! To be fair, there were several posts supporting Dr. Sweet’s post, but they were in the minority and the same loudmouths bashed on them for suggesting he had a point. Like I said, people on this forum like to bash Game Wardens and people with degrees for some reason, so I suspect that is why there are not more members of these two groups participating on the forum, and I have never seen a post from a PETA representative on this forum. It is easy to preach to the choir, the real trick is preaching to a larger audience where the real decisions are being made, and if you want to encourage real discussion about the issues, people on this forum had better learn to try and see the problem from some of these other perspectives instead of bashing on people who do not share their views because herpers are in the minority and will loose a public debate every time with our current reputation.
You Wrote:
>>And are you implying that herpers are non-educated, undisciplined hicks? Many of us have degrees - many of us even have *science* degrees, SO WHAT?! So where do *your* prejudices lie?
In Response:
I never said anything of the sort, and in fact I have said many times that I consider myself a herper, and I have many degrees. If you actually look at the make-up of the community of herpers I think you will find that most are fairly well educated, which is why I find it so surprising that the herp community as a whole tolerates the loudmouths that bash people who are not here to defend themselves and who give the entire community a bad name!
You Wrote:
>>See, that's EXACTLY the problem - YOU are being pre-judged NEGATIVELY by *WILDLIFE OFFICIALS* even though YOU are *one of the "GOOD GUYS"* and *ONE of THEM!!!! Even though they PERSONALLY KNOW YOU!!! Don't you see a problem with that? I wonder how many other "good citizen herpers" they have either wrongly judged, accused, or whatever. It's pure prejudice. That's all. Don't judge all herpers by the whackos, "cowboys",or the criminals! What's so difficult about that?
In Response:
This is exactly my point! The public and Gov’t perception of herpers is that they are a group of loudmouthed jerks that poach, smuggle, and keep illegal animals in greater numbers than they are allowed to because that is what they see, and they also see that the HERP COMMUNITY is either UNWILLING or UNABLE to POLICE ITSELF, so they feel they have to do it for us!!! The herp community is loosing the public perception battle by its own in action. Why is that so hard to understand? The herp community is certainly willing to lump all Game Wardens into a pile of stupid, self-righteous environmentalists out to destroy all of the herp community’s fun to justify their existence, so why is it so hard to understand that they do it to us? The only difference is that we have something to loose, and they don’t! It ain’t fair, but that’s life.
You Wrote:
>>I don't believe the herp hobby's future is *bleak*. I don't have to clean up *my* act - there's nothing to clean up. There are issues and concerns that must be addressed by the hobby as a whole, and a minority of herpers have to be dealt with to clean the tarnish off of the rest of us, true. We need to band together to prevent stupid legislation, and promote positive legislation.
In Response:
In other words, you acknowledge that there are problems in the industry, but take offence at my suggesting that you have some responsibility for the actions of other herpers, and then you go on to say that herpers have to band together to prevent stupid legislation. Can’t you see the CONNECTION BTWEEN the IRRESPONSABLE HERPERS and the STUPID LEGISLATION?
So what is my motivation for participating on the forum? It is simple; I want herpers to police their own ranks for a change and stop promoting an atmosphere of brazen bravado, because the illegal and irresponsible activity coupled with this cowboy attitude is giving us all a bad name. If we don’t recognize that this is a problem and stop tolerating and even encouraging this kind of behavior within our ranks by saying, “it is a small minority that is the problem, not me” and pretending illegal activity is no big deal despite the fact that illegal activity keeps making headlines or pretending our collective pile of dung don’t stink just because not every person participated in the making of the dung, we are all going to LOOSE BIG when the Gov’t and PETA step in to clean up our mess for us! I am advocating that every member of the herp community needs to take personal responsibility for the actions of every other member of the herp community because the bad behavior of a few affects us all in the form of stupid laws, bans and restrictions. No, we can’t stop all illegal activity and irresponsibility, but we can sure let folks know that this kind of bad behavior is not going to be tolerated within our community. People who break the law or act in an irresponsible manor should be shunned from our community, not put on a pedestal and cheered as concerning heroes in the battle against ‘the man’!
You Wrote:
>>You have exhausted my patience with this discussion. I tried to be civil throughout. You do have valid points, but by playing devil's advocate too well, I think you have successfully alienated even those you were seeking to ally yourself with. And that's truly unfortunate.
In Response:
Your right, this is unfortunate because I was civil with you (I admit there have been others on the forum I have lost my temper with, but you were not one of them), and I have even told you I think you generally have very good points that I agree with in many cases, and it was never my intention to alienate you, and I am sorry if I did. However, I have not been playing devil’s advocate, I have been advocating for myself and an alternative view on the problem all herpers face in an effort to promote discussion of the problems and get folks to change the way they look at and respond to the problem. It seems from your post, and those of others that my central point has largely been lost along the way, and I don’t understand why because I have restated the same position over, and over, and over to the point where I am tired of listening to myself!
Perhaps the Gov’t types and PETA are correct in assuming herpers are unwilling or unable to see the problems, take responsibility for their community and police their own ranks? I hope not because that means I would have to give up my animals when it becomes illegal to own herps and, some of my “kids” I have kept for 30 years or more. And that’s truly unfortunate.
Big Brother

BB said:
Lisa,
I am sorry that I have apparently angered you with my response to your post.

My reply:
Anger is too strong a word - try sheer frustration.

I believe in personal accountability - a person is accountable for his/her own actions. They ARE NOT responsible for the actions of others. People should have the self respect to strive to do the "right thing". If everyone could only do this, then there might not be a problem to begin with. I generally think there should be less laws, not more. In some ways I think the "herp problem" is similar to the "gun ownership problem" in that some herps can be dangerous/deadly - but mostly when handled improperly by the wrong people AND that the issue really shouldn't be about enacting newer, stricter laws, but by making clear the existing ones and properly enforcing them.

That being said, this is a country full of frivolous laws (ie. banning ownership of snakes over 6' in length in areas where snakes that get larger are native), lawsuits, well-funded political lobbyist groups with huge agendas (ie. PETA), and goverment officials who often think they know "what's best" for others, without asking for other's opinions (ie wildlife officials on ego trips).

BB's comments:
If a falconer breaks the law, mistreats his birds or acts in an irresponsible manor, he looses his license at minimum, and thus he is no longer a falconer. If a herper breaks the law he pays a fine and/or jail time and goes back to being a herper. In the falconry community they keep each other inline so they don’t have problems with the authorities. In the herp community everyone does their own thing and pretends the actions of the other members of the community has no effect on them. A falconer keeps a bird that most people outside the world of falconry think are majestic. A herper keeps animals most people outside the herp community at minimum think are strange and many people are out right afraid of. You won’t see a red-tailed hawk sitting in it’s own filth for sale in a pet store, but you can easily find a sickly lizard sitting in it’s own filth in a pet store.

My comments:
The line about breaking the law, paying a fine and going back to being a herper - replace the word herper with ANY OTHER noun and see what you get - try these - dog or cat owner, parent, doctor, CEO of a major corporation. In some of these cases, according to existing laws, they indeed would lose their license or "rights" and would thus, no longer be a (insert noun here). But many of these laws are not enforced (Enron anyone?) If existing animal humane laws and wildlife (and habitat!) protection laws were simply ENFORCED - I believe many of the "bad things" about this hobby would be GREATLY REDUCED! Where are the laws governing how petstores must humanely sell animals and provide for their needs in dealing with the sickly reptile sitting in it's own filth? Rather than realizing that herps "matter" as much as dogs and cats when enforcing humane laws, many agendas (like PETA) would rather ban their sale, than enforce their proper care. That is not the *herper's* fault! But as a result - it's *herpers* that do have to ban together, to create proper, protective legislation (for the animals AND the hobby) and prevent or repeal bad legislation.

BB's comments:
My intention all the way along has been to get herpers to police their own ranks and clean up the problems that people on the outside see with our hobby before PETA and HSUS shut us down. This is a battle of public perception, and the herp community by its inaction is loosing badly!

My comments: Total agreement with the sentiment - it's your delivery, and the specifics that herpers have a problem with.

In Response:
I’ve been here for just a short time and every time I put pen to paper I get bashed. The bashing I love best is when people accuse me of not looking at a problem from all perspectives when my intent is simply to present the other perspective to try and get people to find some common ground, so I am completely wrong on the issues because I present a different perspective that is totally invalid. The irony is wonderful!
As to the scientist bashing, let’s forget the rocks I’ve taken and check out the Monitor forum where .snip.... Dr. Sweet presented a scientific solution to a potential explination to a question posed about shipping mortality. And to this effort a guy responded with sarcasm, and basically ..snip....bashes him with a lengthy post ... This doesn’t sound like love to me! To be fair, there were several posts supporting Dr. Sweet’s post, but they were in the minority and the same loudmouths bashed on them for suggesting he had a point.

My comments:
You said it yourself - loudmouths! A post might be read by 100 people 75 of whom think, "Wow! Glad he posted that, I'll have to watch how I use those, or stop using them altogether." Three might post to say so. Of the 25 who thought, "I disagree, I use 'em all the time, with no problems." It's the 5 with the strongest, most outraged disagreement who are going to post, "That guy's crazy!" I've seen it over and over again on many boards, and do it myself - this conversation's an example. You don't neccesarily respond to a post you agree with, but you most certainly respond to a post you strongly disagree with. It's human nature.

In reference to the "preaching to the choir" comments..Kingsnake is a herp hobbyist's website. Unless a member of wildlife LE, or PETA (fat chance!) is a herper - why would they be here? Find herpers an open forum where we can talk to WLE and PETA and the gov't about these issues, and we probably will.

I Wrote:
>>And are you implying that herpers are non-educated, undisciplined hicks?

BB's Response:
I never said anything of the sort

BB said:
I don’t understand why so many people find scientists, who are frankly smart enough to have figured out a way to get paid to do what they love, to be worthy of being bashed as morons who need to be spoon fed reality by people who followed a different path in life and did not discipline themselves on a course of study,

My reply:
The implication appeared to be that herpers "frankly *AREN'T* smart enough..." and "did not discipline themselves on a course of study" But I could have misinterpreted.

I Wrote:
>>I wonder how many other "good citizen herpers" they have either wrongly judged, accused, or whatever. It's pure prejudice. That's all. Don't judge all herpers by the whackos, "cowboys",or the criminals! What's so difficult about that?

BB's Response:
This is exactly my point! The public and Gov’t perception of herpers is that they are a group of loudmouthed jerks that poach, smuggle, and keep illegal animals in greater numbers than they are allowed to because that is what they see,

My reply:
No, it's not your point - what you have been saying all along was that the public, gov't, and PETA are right - and that herpers need to police ourselves "clean up our act" before our right to keep herps is taken away, and we collect wc herps into extinction.

What I'm saying is that what the public, and gov't believe is mostly misperception and fear/loathing of herps in general, fueled by soundbytes from PETA, and media sensationalizing the cases of herp abuse/neglect, salmonella,etc. etc. What I believe is that we need to EDUCATE everyone about herps/herpers, create those beneficial laws I already mentioned, and work to eliminate that "10 percent" of "bad" herpers.

BB wrote:
and they also see that the HERP COMMUNITY is either UNWILLING or UNABLE to POLICE ITSELF, so they feel they have to do it for us!!!

My comments:
How many other animal related hobbys police themselves? Cats, dogs, rabbits, ferrets, pocket pets, tropical or marine fish, horses, cows, sheep/goats, llamas/alpacas, birds? Not to my knowledge. Falconry - how do they police themselves - does the licensing come from a national falconry organization - or does the license come from the gov't? If it's from the gov't, then they don't police themselves either.

BB wrote:
In other words, you acknowledge that there are problems in the industry, but take offence at my suggesting that you have some responsibility for the actions of other herpers, and then you go on to say that herpers have to band together to prevent stupid legislation. Can’t you see the CONNECTION BTWEEN the IRRESPONSABLE HERPERS and the STUPID LEGISLATION?

My response: I absolutely do - but it is not the herp hobby's fault as a whole (or mine!), it is the fault of those individual herpers that didn't take responsibility for their own actions. And those special interests who take advantage of "bad press" to create anti-herp legislation. Unfortunately, as a result, the hobby does have to band together to defend itself. If animals, habitat, and the herp hobby benefit from herper's coming together, then justice will be served. That's how I look at it.

I pointed out to you why people were questioning your motives, and you responded by getting hot under the collar. So I replied in kind. It's too bad it came to that.

Lisa

Lisa,

I think you hit the nail on the head, if everyone did the “right thing” we would have no need of laws in society, but laws in society are needed to establish the “boundaries” within which a free society can operate. The real question is where does society draw the boundary line. Your gun example is a good one where there is a great deal of debate about where the “gun control” line gets drawn. In some states it is legal for persons to carry a concealed gun without a license, whereas in other states carrying a concealed gun requires a license. Further, there is the whole national assault rifle ban extension that folks in DC are voting on today. These are contentious issues that deal with where the line is drawn, and when news events occur, like some nut case opening fire with an assault riffle on a schoolyard for example, political pressure is applied due to the public outcry. Many years ago, in response to such an event, the National Riffle Association set up a demonstration of the proper use of an assault riffle at one of the local shooting ranges a couple of days after the killing spree. Instead of using regular targets for their demonstration, they used watermelons! Can you imagine how parents of children felt about this demonstration going on at the same time as the funerals for the slain children? I honestly think the NRA meant well, but their timing and choice of targets did not play well with the general public, so the gun control folks gained a lot of ground on the NRA that day with out even trying, because the NRA responded inappropriately to the public’s concerns, and the public responded by badgering the politicians into enacting tighter gun controls even though the guy who did the killing was not suppose to be allowed to have a gun in the first place (as I recall the guy was a convicted felon with a history of mental instability which should have prevented him from being sold or even in the possession of a gun). Clearly this is a case where if the original laws were enforced, this tragedy would have never occurred.

Now back to herps. We are also dealing with a “where to draw the line” debate much like gun control, but with herps, the debate is multi-factorial whereas the gun control debate is largely dichotomous (i.e. right to bear arms vs. keeping guns out of the reach of criminals that will use them to do harm to society). With the herp “control” issue we are dealing with the right of a person to keep a pet they enjoy, the prevention of animal cruelty due to improper care etc., the safety of the public due to irresponsible owners keeping dangerous animals (which is largely a public perception issue in and of itself, but I think we can all agree that keeping an 8 foot alligator in an apartment is not safe and neither is keeping a boomslang in a shoe box), the protection of wildlife from over collecting (which has been and still is a problem for many species, and I would argue will be a bigger problem in the future as human populations increase resulting in the loss of habitat for wild populations, but that is a different debate), and the protection of wildlife from the effects of introduced competitors/diseases from captive exotic animals. To further complicate things we have commercial vs. sport harvest issues that come into the mix to blur the line placement as well as the exotic/native/domestic species protection issues to deal with. In other words, the location as to where the lines are drawn that infringe on individual rights is not a simple two dimensional system, so there are a lot of issues that need to be discussed to find the balance between all of these competing factors.

Herpers tend to have strong views as to where those lines should be drawn on this multidimensional field, and what I have been trying to illustrate, is that where these lines get drawn is largely not up to herpers, it is up to the general public, because herpers are in the minority. The public does not understand all of these competing issues revolving around the keeping of herps any better than the politicians, whom the public drives into enacting laws to restrict the personal freedoms of herpers. If six little old ladies call up a politician and tell him that unless he protects them from these “irresponsible snake people” they won’t vote for him at re-election time, a politician looks at his voter base and decides that he can look like a big man to his voting constituents buy passing a law that restricts the freedoms of a minority group, and even though he might loose votes from this minority group, the majority of people will either think the law is a good idea or not care about it, so the politician does the only thing he knows how to do, and that’s adding laws to the books so he looks like he is doing something good for the “public good and safety” with out really improving anything. The result are a bunch of stupid laws restricting herps that are based on “News Events” such as the ubiquitous alligator in the basement or apartment next door or the guy that gets bit by his pet (insert name of venomous snake here), or the guy that walks around the streets of a city with a 15 foot python draped around his neck scarring the bagezes out of some little old lady. All of these incidents upset the general public, and when people get upset they call their local politician and demand that something be done to protect them from these irresponsible people that are a member of the minority community of herpers. So, at least at the local level, which is where most of the herp prohibition laws are enacted, the system is driven largely by the public’s fear of reptiles, and the irresponsible owners feed those fears. To make the problem worse, no one (the politician being first among them) bothers to determine how to fairly enforce the laws or even pay for the enforcement of these new “public outcry” laws, so they sit on the books to restrict the “good citizen” herpers while the irresponsible ones, who were responsible for the restrictions in the first place, continue to ignore and violate the law, which just makes the community of herpers look worse in the eyes of the general public. Similar arguments could be made for all the other factors I have listed as a result of poaching, commercial over-collection, and etc.. The point is, it is the minority of herpers, who are irresponsible, that are driving the public’s perception that these laws are needed, so we need to attack the problem at it’s route to protect the community as a whole, and not ignore the problem because no one else is going to solve the problem for us. Just look at what happened after a handful of kids in a nursery school got sick after putting dime store turtles in their mouths! No one stopped to ask what sort of conditions the teachers were keeping the turtles in, which was probably a pool of very gross water that had not been changed in weeks, before they enacted a National law banning the sale of turtles smaller than 3”, and there were many local laws banning turtles and in some cases reptiles from schools completely. Did any politician, or the general public for that matter, stop to think about how enacting such a law would impact the rights of herpers? Or did they stop to consider what impact such a law might have on wild populations when no one could afford to CB turtles as a result of this law? Of course not, which is why the minority herp community needs to take action to change the public’s perception of our community to reduce the number of stupid laws being added to the books.

The best way to change our public image is for each and every herper to “do the right thing.” The problem lies in the irresponsible herpers who will never change no matter what we do, and there will always be bad apples in every group. We can respond by saying these people are the exception not the rule because most herpers are responsible owners, which will wind up as the obligatory “we asked for comment from the herp community, and they denied that this was a real problem” line in the news story that makes the front page of the local news paper with a headline reading “Reptile Hobbyist Keeps Pet Alligator: Bites Leg Off Postal Worker.” Or we can respond preemptively by working on our public image and making it clear that irresponsible owners will be shunned from our community, and the best way to send that message is to make it crystal clear that irresponsible behavior will not be tolerated within the community. The recent posts about poor conditions in pet stores are a good example here. Most folks have suggested ways to quietly get the pet store to clean up its act. I would argue that maybe we should gather together a group of herpers with signs like “Responsible Herper Against Inhumane Treatment of Animals at Store X” and stage a very loud protest outside the offending pet store. In other words make our position crystal clear to the public that this kind of activity is not going to be tolerated within the herp community. Wouldn’t it be nice to see a headline like “Reptile Hobbyist’s Promote Humane Treatment of Animals” for a change? Talk about taking the wind out of PETA’s sails!

You also make a very good point that there are a lot of stupid and not so stupid laws out there that are not enforced. For the most part these laws are not enforced because they are either truly stupid laws or because of the practical realities of trying to enforce laws that are poorly designed. This is why I think wildlife laws need to be made by biologists and law enforcement personnel in concert, not individually, and certainly not by politicians with no understanding of the issues. Most importantly, the good laws in place need to be strictly enforced, which will only be the case if the herp community gets involved in the enforcement process. This does not mean you have to squeal on your friend, but it does mean that you need to tell your friend that what they are doing is illegal and has the potential to negatively impact your ability to keep herps, and you don’t ever want to see X again. All of the sudden it will no longer be cool for someone to thumb their nose at the law within the herp community. Further, money is found to enforce laws when the Gov’t is told the public wants certain laws enforced, so herp groups need to try and work with (and I know this is not always easy, but we still need to work toward this goal) not against law enforcement agencies and lobby for the money necessary to train Game Warden’s on herp identification for example, or get your herp club together, do a bake sale and donate the proceeds to pay for a Warden to drive the favorite night driving road once a month looking for poachers. All of these things will go a long way toward improving our public image as well as our image in the eyes of most LE people. There are many other way to improve our image as well, but the point here is that we must improve our image, to get what we want because we are in the minority, and it is in our own best interest to improve our public image. We have nothing to loose by trying to change our image, and everything to gain, and that is what I mean when I say we need to clean up our act.

My final comment is in response to, “In reference to the "preaching to the choir" comments..Kingsnake is a herp hobbyist's website. Unless a member of wildlife LE, or PETA (fat chance!) is a herper - why would they be here? Find herpers an open forum where we can talk to WLE and PETA and the gov't about these issues, and we probably will.” PETA has already made up their mind and they are not going to change, so don’t bother! PETA already knows the only way to win their argument is in the public arena where the issues are uncomplicated and vague. The trick is to make the public see that we, the minority herpers, are reasonable people and will respond in a reasonable manor to public concerns and that we do hold people accountable for the mistreatment and poaching of animals. If we do that, PETA will become obsolete, but our silence gives them power because it makes us look like we have something to hide. I am a member of wildlife LE, and I am here because I am a herper who sees the need for change within our community. Most wildlife LE types are not herpers, but most are hunters and fishermen who got into their career to try and protect something that they themselves love to do. It is not their job to come to us in the herp community and try and build relationships with us; it is up to us to build relationships with them. After all, we are the ones who have something to loose. If you go to almost any hunting or fishing club across the country you will find wildlife LE amongst their members because they feel welcome. How welcome do you think most wildlife LE people would feel at a meeting of your local herp club? There is a reason for that, and it is directly tied to everything we have been talking about. If a guy in a hunting club talks about poaching a deer, his buddies will jump on him like a ton of bricks! However, I cannot even count the number of times I’ve been to herp club meetings (and no, the members at these meetings did not know who I was) and heard people talking about how dealer x has a shipment of X species in that is suppose to illegal, so you better buy one while they last (and there was a recent post to that effect in one of the other forums), or I’ve got x species even though it is illegal under local law but the law is stupid cause this guy is great, or Game Wardens are such morons they can’t tell a rat snake from a kingsnake. It all comes down to taking personal responsibility AND letting others know that bad behavior will not be tolerated because it affects the entire community badly. Finally, such a change would go a long way toward fostering communication and respect between LE and the herp community, which is the first steep toward solving differences.

Just one persons opinion, take it as you see fit.

Big Brother