Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi: I wonder about the safety of Lava rock with Darts. The skin of Darts seem tender and easily broken to me. Yet, I've seen set ups with lava rock waterfalls that have ferns, incidentals, and epiphytes easily rooting/growing on them. Would those of you having experience using this material tell us your feelings about this material in the Dart frog habitat? Thanks-Maggie

This is a great question and I am sorry that I don't have an answer. All I can do is help you get an answer. If someone can help...what can you say about lava rocks in general for amphibians? I have the same question for my tree frog tank for RETFs. I want to build a waterfall out of lava rocks but I am afraid that the edges of the rock will be too sharp and may damage the skin of my pets. I figure that it is okay given that lava rocks are extremely popular for fish or all types and sizes.

I have lava rock in a couple of my tanks and it does not seem to bother the frogs at all. Never had and open sores or anything on the frogs or cuts. I would think they are just like us or any other animal, if it hurts or irritates the skin they would not get on it. Understand that this is merely my opinion and what I have seen from my exsperience with lava rocks and my darts. Again I have never had a problem with it in 2 years.

TonyT

I've been using lava rock for something along the lines of 6-8 years with lots of dart frogs and Mantellas. Some frogs bury down into the crevices. I've had tads scoot around under and between the rocks. I have never had a problem with any sort of abrasion. Lava rock is a lot cheaper than leca and serves the same basic function. I usually go with lava rock, sphagnum and oftentimes magnolia leaves (i.e. when available). The sphagnum turns to mush over time and I put more sphagnum on top. I am a firm disbeliever in false bottoms. There are too many potential problems and too much initial effort for me.

Frank

I would not put lava rocks into any frog tank. Not only do you have the possibiliby ot skin abrasions, but lava rock will leach minerals, etc. into your tank that can harm you frogs.

Melis
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Quality Captives

You know, on the subject of abrasions... I wonder if tumbled/smoothed out Lava rock would provide the same water resistancy, good rooting site for plants benefit while being of no concern on skin sensitivity. I have seen other igneous rocks that are pourous and smooth and could allow for those incidentals to easily root. On the subject of leaching of Minerals..I would like more info on this. I've not known about this possiblity. How do aquarist deal with this? That would pose a big problem. Thanks for the heads up Melissa! Maggie

I am not trying to argue this with anyone but I just have never heard of them leeching anything. I don't believe they do or like someone else said how would they be safe in a fish aquarium. I would not go and get a bag of landscaping lava rock and put them in a tank but, I would use lava rock from a pet store. Again this is just my .02..............
THANKS
TonyT

Hey I've used lava rocks in two set-ups. I mainly use them instead of gravel. I put a layer of lava rock in the tank then put a layer of landscaping fabric then my fern root or whatever i'm using for my plants. the lava rock gives more room for benneficial bacteria than most products out there which is just all around good. I dont use lava rock where my frogs would come in contact with it(I think it is ugly) but since it is about the easiest rock to sculpt or drill it is more than suitable for constructing a waterfall. any water moving over the lava rock would be fantastic as far as biological filtration goes it would act like a bio wheel used in an aquarium. Personally I feel that the biological filtration produced by the lava rock out weighs the dangers of mineral leaching, after all the roots of the plants in your tank should help to filter out minerals. Furthermore what do you think happens when you dust your feeders with supplements? any of that dust the frogs dont eat ends up in the water. Also your frogs are not going to absorb extremely high amounts of the minerals unless you keep them in poor conditions where they are always in contact with water. Darts come from a place that if very humid and rainy not from a place that is always soggy and wet. Infact they spend much of their time on dry leaves, roots, and branches.
Abrasions from the sharp edges of the rocks may be a real problem. though hopefully anyone thinking of using lava rock would have their viv. set up for atleast a few weeks prior to putting the frogs in. Given adequate lighting this is more than enough time for types of moss(java moss especially) to grow over the sharp edges.
Anyway these are just my feelings on the issue and I suspect that they are no more or less valid than anyone else's in the forum. All I can really tell you is to do as much research as you can and try to make the most informed decissions based on what you may find.
-Adam

Just because a rock or type of rock can be used in an aquarium, doesn't mean it can be used in a frog tank. Limestone is another example. Advanced hobbyists will use different types of rocks in their terrarium! FYI...the rocks sold at the aquarium store do more than decorate their tanks.

Sure, you can use either one, but you are changing the ph of the tank and making it less 'optium' for your frogs. If you want your frogs to do well, not be stressed and successfully breed, I would suggest staying away from any rock that can leach in your vivarium.

Melissa
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Quality Captives

Yes, limestone will change the PH, that is why you would not use it in an aquarium unless you wanted a high PH....but the question wasn't about limestone.

Lava rock will not change PH. It will not leach out anything bad unless it has been exposed to it. You should treat it the same as wood and other pourous materials you put in the tank, there's no difference. ALL pourous materials can leach bad things into the water if not properly prepared before placing in the tank.

Just my 2 cents

Leif

If you use lava rock in your cage, you run the risk of having unhealthy frogs.

The frogs will not breed as well nor will they be as healthy. If this is not caused by leaching...maybe it is something else.

I will not elaborate on the source of this info, but I will say he is considered one of the premier breeders in the hobby.
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Quality Captives

I'm very new to dart keeping and I don't want it to seem like I was advising putting lava rocks a vivarium, because I don't have any experience using them that way.

But I do have many years (decades) of fishkeeping experience and I have used alot of lava rock. As with a vivarium, you can't just throw any old rock in an aquarium because of the same reasons (heavy metals, dissolving etc.). That is why lava rock became so popular for aquariums, it doesn't leach heavy metals into the tank or dissolve and change the PH.

I wasn't planning on putting lava rock in any of my vivs, but truthfully I can't see any harm in it other than it's roughness.

Again, just my 2 cents from a new dart frogger...

Leif

If I remember correctly, there was a discussion on frognet about lava rock..... and I am quite sure that it was frowned upon as a gravel layer substiture because of the possibility of leaching copper. Copper is VERY BAD!!!!! Having a hunk of lava rock in a land portion of a tank is one thing..... but having your ENTIRE drainage layer of lava rock continuosuly soaking in water and potentially leaching copper into it is quite undesirable for your amphibians.
I will attempt to find the link to that frognet post in the archives either way......
I'll get back to you.
Double J

Yes, the "possibility" of lava rock leaching copper into the frog tank is bad. Copper is also bad in a freshwater aquarium. It is used sometimes to treat certain parasitic infestations, but once treatment is done it should be removed. It will kill the fish in high concentrations over time.

But I have seen fish tanks STACKED with lava rock with no ill effects. I'v also seen lava rock used in saltwater reef tanks with delicate corals and invertebrates and copper in tiny amounts is DEADLY to them.

It should be an easy thing to confirm. Put a piece of lava rock in a bucket of water and test the water for copper over time.

As I said, I'm not going to use lava rock in any of my vivs, and I'm not advising anyone to do so because I don't have experience in that area. But I'm still not convinced that lava rock would create any problems if it was used that way, other than it's roughness.
And there are other people in this post who seem to have used lava rock in the dart tanks with great success.

sorry for the ramble...just my opinion, each has their own

Leif

Something that hasn't been discussed, is the possibiliby of lava rock from different sources having different impurities. Usually info that is passed down in frognet and from other froggers is based on bad experiences people have had in the past. This might not be a problem now, but my recomendation is not to used it. The possibility of skin abrasions should be enough of a reason not to use it.

Melis
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Quality Captives

I agree with that statement.

I have been cut handling lava rock! I would just assume leave it out of a viv. Also I don't find its look appealing what so ever.

-Richard
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1.1.4 D. auratus

I absolutly agree that the roughness of the lava rock is a concern, some of it can be pretty nasty. I wouldn't use it because of that.

As for possible impurities in the lava rock from different sources, well that could apply to anything we put in the tanks. Many people use differnt types of rocks, slate, driftwood, orchid barks, forest bedding, cocoa husks...I could go on and on. It all comes from different sources and it all has the possiblitly to be contaminated with something that could leach into the tank. It all comes down to how well we prepare (clean) the item before placing it in the animals enclosure. And sometimes even this isn't enough.

It just doesn't seem logical to me to say "don't use lava rock because it will leach impurities into your tank that are bad for the frogs". If this were true it would apply to fishkeeping also. It would have shown up on my water tests and I would have many very expensive and very dead fish.

That being said, I wouldn't put lava rock in a tank where the darts could come in contact with it because it is very sharp. But I would consider useing it as a bottom layer for my substrate, it's a great biological filter!

I'm a new dart frog keeper, and fairly new to this forum. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toe's, just offering my opinion.

Peace

Leif

Almost forgot:
0.0.3 Tincs. (olemarie)
0.0.3 Luecs.

Ok! Great thead everyone! Just the kind of info I wanted to have a disscussion on! Seems to be wise not to use it where the Frogs would contact it. Seems like the possibility of leaching is inconclusive. I'll throw that idea in the pile with the nays! Its great to be able to post a question and have you guys help me think about it! Thanks and Frog on-Maggie

Maggie,
You asked if there are any problem associated with the use of lava rocks in frog tanks and I was just letting you know that I have not had any in my exsperience with it's use in the last 2 years in my tanks. None at all. I use both lava and lime rock. I have 125 pounds (2 pieces)of lime rock that was removed from my reef tank (which I used as a PH buffer) when I broke it down. I use it in my front tank now with great success. They seem to love the tunnels and caves it provides for hiding. My Azureus started laying in this tank 3 days after I recieved them and didn't stop for like 4 months. They stopped because I moved them to a different tank and had to acclimate to the new invoroment I think. I think this is merely a matter of opinion on if it is safe to use or not. As far as the rocks being more than decorative, I know the benefits of certain rocks in an aquarium and have been in that end of the hobby for over 15 years. So I would not tell someone to use something that I knew would definately or even possibly be harmful to their frogs. Here is a general rule of thumb: If you think it could be harmful, don't use it. It is all about the best interest of your frogs.

TonyT

I know the most common type of lava rock is the red type you always see at pet stores and landscaping stores, and that's probably what you're talking about. But what are your opinions to the grey bowl lava that's occassionally available. I just started to set up a 20 gallon long dart frog tank at the pet store I work in, and used 3 peices. They have large pockets that hold water, and have small green, grey, and orange lichens growing on them. They don't seem as rough as the red variety of lava rock. If you have any experience with the lava I'm talking about, please let me know.

P.S. I will try to post pictures of the terrarium when it is done early next week.
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0.0.1 Piebald Ball Python
1.1 Albino Nelson's Milks
0.1 Dumeril's Boa
0.0.1 Albino Corn
0.1 Mex Mex

I have never used lava rock in any frog tanks but I have used it exclusively for the last 15 years in my watergardens for filtration. It is excellant for creating a biological filter system. It allows the good bacteria to set up and take care of the bad.
Any of the pond/watergarden shops will cary the lava and tell you that it won't cause any problems.
But again, as I said, I have never used it in any tanks but in my watergardens. I have had wonderful success with fish and the toads and frogs that have taken up permanent residence in my watergarden have done great year after year.
Now, roughness could be an issue to delicate little frog skin, but then again I am the one that worried about my "earth stars" having the sharp little points on the leaves. They really were sharp when I first got it but I think after getting a good watering it really softened them up.
I don't think it ever hurts to be concerned about those kinds of things, as they say, "better safe than sorry"
Rhonda

If we decide to use lava rocks, is there some kind of stain or finish that we can coat the rock with that will make it less sharp but just as appealing. By stain or finish I obviously also mean something that is safe for frogs...

If it were me personally, I would not use anything on the lava rock. That being said, I would use it under substrate for filtration but I would not use it were the frogs could come in contact with it.
I suppose you could sand down the rough edges. You could use something like a Dremel with a small bit that could get to the cracks and crevices. Although, as it was stated in an earlier post, there are much prettier rocks for aesthetic value that would be a lot less hassle.
Rhonda

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Discussions like this are exactly what these forums are all about, it's great to see all the differnt points of view and then make an informed decision.

Nice reef tank Tony! My 40 gallon reef tank is the only thing that is going to survive the invasion of the darts. My 125 gallon fresh tank is going to go to dart frog bliss. I'm actually going to divide it into 5 seperate compartments using the glass from 4 - 55 gallon tanks I have stacked in the basement.

There I go again with the ramble....
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Leif

0.0.3 Tinctorius (olemarie)
0.0.3 Luecomelas

if you know what I mean! Wait til I ask some really hard questions! Maggie