Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I saw a post a long time time ago on a vet you could order it thru online. I have no faith in the only local vet around here, he dont know squat and I don't trust him or his tests. I'm looking to aquire for regular maintaince, not having any probs, cause my leos enjoy their crix. I understand many of you breeders deworm for safety twice a year. Anyone know how to get without going thru a expensive vet visit inwhich he prob wont find anything and give some anyways. I have over 20 geckos and he'd prob want to see each one. Thanks for any info.
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My posts and replies are my experiences only
1.2.15 Tokays
1.4.10 Leos(13 albino)
1.2.0 AFT's(amel male)
0.2.0 Stenodactylus Petrii(Dune Geckos)

he may not know squat but i am sure as medicine goes he prolly knows more than you. take a fecal sample to the vet. a fecal is a fecal is a fecal... they loook for parasites in it... get the medicine from him and if he once gives you the meds and you think the dosage is too much or too little then ask here to see what other experienced breeders think..... even though panacure is considered a safe wormer it can be overdosed and kill your leo
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

beanfarm.com shows to have panacur available
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Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Lizards

0.8.0 leopard geckos - mango, noodle, jaws, mosin-"nagant", sobe, libby, sonora, & "zin"fandel
0.1 bearded dragon - sydney
0.1 king snake & 0.2.3 corn snakes
1 red eye tree frogs, 3 green tree frogs, 2 firebelly toads
5 anoles,6.0 bettas & numerous tropicals
1.2 dogs (dachshund-pepper, brittany spaniel-jenni, lab-kaci)
1 hubby & 2 boys

www.skayart.com

If you have a problem and you don't like your vet, get a new vet. That's not a good excuse.
If you want to buy your own Panacur, just go to almost any feed store. They should carry some sort of Fenbendazole. I prefer the Safegard paste in apple flavor. It's actually a horse wormer but the leos like it and it's easy to use and the same ingredient as the Panacur brand.
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Rick-Geckoland USA

I agree. You should still have a fecal done in order to make sure that the medication that you are giving is the correct medication. Panacur(Fenbendazole) has a distinct coverage on what it treats. What happens if he finds something that is not covered by Panacur and you need Flagyl. I suggest finding a vet that you like and discussing your concerns. Most are very understanding and will look at fecals for you. The most important thing is to ask and discuss your situation. Also, in regards to those who deworm twice a year, most are larger breeders, I think, and therefore it is part of a maintainence plan. Realize that deworming is not always the answer. Keeping the habitat clean and good husbandry goes a long way. I am sorry if this sounds like a lecture. Have a great day.

Although Panacur is a relatively safe drug, I do not understand why people seem to think it will cure everything. I agree with JefferyVMD, (does this mean you are a veterinarian?) that a fecal exam should be performed if a parasitic infection is suspected. It is necessary to identify exactly what you are trying to treat in order to use the appropriate medication. Also, I am curious just how Safeguard in a paste form used to treat a half-ton horse can be properly dosed at 25-50 mg/kg in order to treat a 45 gram gecko?
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

I thought that was a little odd myself but it's there in black and white.

How do I get to melissa Caplans page?

Although Melissa Kaplain's site is very informative, she is NOT a veterinarian and she is dead wrong if that's what her website really says. Panacur will take care of many types of nematodes (worms), but doesn't even touch tape worms, bacterial infections, coccidia, or flagellate protozoans like giardia and thrichomonas... the last four of which are fatal if not diagnosed properly and treated with the appropirate medication. Coccidia requires Albon (sulfa drug), and Flagy is used to treat the protozoans.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

exactly. very well stated.

I was just telling you why they think this...If you do a search, that's the information you get. Now, being that it's on the internet, in print and all, EVERYTHING we see must be true, right?? LOL!

n/p
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

www.anapsid.org/mainhealth.html
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

thank you. Sorry I am a little behind in this posting. Thanks again.

Hi

If anyone is interested in knowing more about Melissa Kaplain and her hands on experience with things, here is a web page that has a brief autobiography on her. She is also suffer from chrones disease due to an oil spill she went to, to help rescue animals.

http://www.anapsid.org/aboutmk/bio.html

Take Care, TLB

Melissa lives near me, and is disabled with the same diseases I am disabled with, and mine is due to long term overexposure to harmful chemicals from 1972 to 1995 when I was a Chemical Engineer for all those years. I had over half of my large intestine removed about a year ago, and still suffer terribly with FMS/CFSS along with spinal and cervical spondylosis. These are degenerative immune diseases, and there is no cure or treatment for them.

Melissa has dedicated herself to reptile conservation, and although I do not agree with much of what she has published or many of her philosophies, I have a lot of respect for her as a person. Most of her expertise and information relates to Iguanas, and not other reptiles, so there are many discrepancies and ambiguities in her publications.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

HI Marcia

Do you now if Melissa is still around and active in reptiles or has her degenerative disease stopped her. I think the last I heard which was about 3yrs. ago was that it was making it all but impossible to type on the computer anymore.

Take Care, TLB

I don't know the answer to that. I only know pretty much what the general public knows based on the information she feels comfortable giving out.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

um melissakaplin?... dude read through her stuff a bit and then consider the source
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

I am sorry but I did not understand that last note. I am sorry but I do not know who Melissa Caplan is and I was just wondering how I can get to her page. Sorry if I came across wrong but I am interested in reading the info that she has on her web page.

n/p

from first glance it looks good and i supose maybe she means well but with comments like this..........

"At 8 feet and 40 pounds, a 2-year old Boa may already be eating rabbits a couple of times a month and can be very unwieldy to handle alone. "

however well worded in all my year i have never seen an 8ft 2 year old boa

"That cute little 2 ounce, 14-22" hatchling laying cupped in the palm of your hand will increase its size by up to 300% in its first year, reaching 5-6 feet during that time. The following year will add another 3-4 feet to its length, as well as several pounds"

"All of the Boa ssp. are listed as threatened on Appendix II of the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES); the Argentine Boa (B. c. occidentalis) is on Appendix I--the endangered listing. Appendix II animals can be exported and imported with the proper permits, and can legally be sold through the pet trade; Appendix I animals require special permits to buy, sell, trade and own."
ok so not on geckos or health but it just shows how little she knows and i think behind alot of that "fluff" is alot of hot air backed up by half trueths

oh yeah and she refers to baby boas as "hatchlings", boas with the exception of a couple of subspecies of sand boa are live bearers... thus called neonates not hatchlings
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

I'm quite aware that Melissa is not only a bad source at times but also would like to get our rights to keep reptiles as pets banned!

I was just pointing out that it could very well be why people believe that Panacur is this great cure-all. If you do a search for Panacur and dosages, her page appears to be the best source out there...I say "appears" because there's almost every ailment you can think of listed there and it is presented in a professional manner. So, if someone does a search and comes across that, they may very well think that Panacur will take care of it all.

i was basically confirming her ridiculous imformation and to someone with experience, her lack of knowledge....... i agree with you
she has alot of good "fluff" and presents her info in a very professional and scientific manor so it really deceives new or unexperienced herpers
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

Sybella, I'm truly not trying to pick on you, but could you please provide the reference in MK's Webiste where she states that Panacur treats just about everything? Honestly, the following link is all I could find, and in it she pretty much states just the opposite:
www.anapsid.org/parasites1.html

Thanks!
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

I did a search for "Panacur reptile dosages" and this page was the first on the list of hits:

http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html

If you read the section on parasites/worms alone, Panacur is supposed to treat EVERYTHING but tapeworms and pinworms. And, if you read the caption just below the chart, it says that you can buy and use the tubes of Panacur designed for horses.

So, there's your source and why "everyone" thinks this stuff.

PS. I know you wouldn't pick on me, purposely anyway! LOL!! *hugs*

Thanks, Sybella. Although the information on this link is accurate, I can see why many people might only look at the "Parasites" heading and not look past it to realize that protozoans are also parasites. I think the layout of this page is rather ambiguous.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

I've read through this entire conversation and have formulated my opinion on it all in one place rather than replying to various posts here and there. It is simply easier.

Many people do believe that panacur is a cure all. It is probably one of the easiest medications to get a hold of without the need for a verterinarian's prescription. We all know that horse wormer paste can be bought over the counter - hence the popularity for people asking about it. Of course at the dosages that the paste comes in it is all too easy to wind up killing your animal as it is to help it if you don't know exactly what you are doing with it in relation to an animal that is not a horse.

No melissa is not a veterinarian and neither does she claim to be one. She also DOES NOT say or claim that panacur cures everything despite the general claim made in another post.

The information on Melissa's page shows that panacur will take care of many (not all) types of nematodes ie worms. However, she does not claim that it cures tape worms or bacterial infections or coccidia or flagellate protozoans.

She also cautions people about trying to treat their animals on their own rather than going to a veterinarian. My belief is that if someone is going to go to great lengths to avoid going to a vet (cost, time, whatever) and do something stupid like try to play doctor on their own without consulting a vet first then they generally get what they deserve.

Perhaps it would be wise before people choose to slam someone they should take the time to know what it is they are supposedly slamming about that person's website. It is also a good idea for other folks to actually go to the page in question that is being attacked and read it for thesmelves before replying to comments made by others. People tend to not always look so hot when they help slam a person (even unitentionally) because they are simply basing their replies on information that someone else has claimed "she/he said this/that" rather than on what they have actually read there.

Slamming "bad" information is one thing. Slamming a person for no good reason and trying to justify that "bad information" is the reason when it in fact is not is an altogether different matter. This is not a case about inaccurate care sheets that might be found elsewhere on the site. This is about the direct claims being made against Melissa in reference to the validity of the information on this page:

http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html

Where does Melissa say that panacur cures everything? I don't see it. What I see is a page where she has compiled a respectable chart of information about drug dosages for various health related problems in reptiles that was taken from books written by well known well respected reptile veterinarians and she very clearly states where that information was comiled from:

Unless otherwise noted, the doses below are from Mader (1996) and Frye (1993).

Are the people on this forum implying that Mader and Frye (and other veterinarians) are quacks who don't know their stuff? Or are people using that compiled information as an excuse to justify bashing away at someone just because *some* people here and elsewhere don't happen to like Melissa for whatever reason?

I am not sure that anyone was bashing Melissa or the information but unfortuately you can see that everyone who reads it gains their own opinion on what it says. I guess my thought are maybe information like that should not be available to the lay person who may think hey, I can get some antibiotics or other medications and give them to my animal. It is like saying that we should self medicate our children when they are sick. Unfortunately I think that we can go round and round about this and the key here is to take information from the internet carefully because we can find information that is contraindicated and based soley on one persons opinions. Melissa's site has a wealth of information on a number of things and it seems that someone worked very hard on it. But as you have stated, the smartest thing is to find someone with experience and knowledge in the veterinary field who has an understand of not only the species but also the medications.

I am not sure that anyone was bashing Melissa or the information but unfortuately you can see that everyone who reads it gains their own opinion on what it says. I guess my thought are maybe information like that should not be available to the lay person who may think hey, I can get some antibiotics or other medications and give them to my animal. It is like saying that we should self medicate our children when they are sick. Unfortunately I think that we can go round and round about this and the key here is to take information from the internet carefully because we can find information that is contraindicated and based soley on one persons opinions.

Of course if people didn't make the information available then no one would have it at all. Would we have to tell book publishers to not print or provide books to people because it contains information someone out there should not have? Would we have to tell people to stop writing books? When is a layperson no longer be consider a layperson?

I fully agree that everyone here could go round and round over it all till the cows came home and no one would wind up happy or satisfied.

As for the apparent bashing of information. I made one all encompassing reply so that I didn't have to get bogged down in numerous responses all throughout the conversation. My response was generalized covering many concepts over what I read in everyone's replies. People who don't know the past history could of course be somewhat confused over some of the comments made by people in the conversation (as you youself were confused at one point). One would have to know the history in order to interpet the attacks for what they were I guess.

Most people like myself do take Melissa's information as it was intended to be - just one of many public resources available to them. Most people are (I would hope) smart enough to know that it's not the one and only be all compendium of information about reptiles or their care. I tend to formulate my own ideas of how my reptiles should be cared for based on other people's experiences as well as my own. I take what information I want from various sources and ignore that which I see no purpose or use for. Sometimes later I reexamine my information past and present and adjust accordingly. Just because I might not agree with every little tidbit of information that might be found on her site in particular does not give me the right to attack the person or the site and the information at large contained therein. That is just plain wrong. There are a lot of websites out there with information that is completely ridiculous and yet people don't seem to worry about zeroing in on them - just melissa's site.

Unfortunately, it's no big secret that there is a subgroup of people out there in cyberspace who are very much against nearly anything Melissa has to say regardless of what it is. Some of it may be based on jealousy. But it can also be said that some of the arguments existing out there are about things only partially understood, misunderstood, made up, or over stuff taken out of context to suit their own agendas.

There is a lot of good stuff on the site. However, I would not hesitate to say that not everything there might be accurate. But, just because some of it might not be fully accurate does not warrant having people slam her publicly and try to invalidate anything and everything on that site as being bad info just because it's on her site versus someone else's site. As I said before, slamming bad info is one thing, slamming a person and trying to claim bad info is the reason when it is not is another thing altogether. The arguement in this instance over the medication doses had no bearing at all for people trying to start arguments over other information found on other pages on the site. It just does not compute - completely irrelavent in this case.

You are right, it does NOT say that anywhere on her website, and I agree with you. Hopefully, you have noticed that in my particular posts I clearly stated that "if she really says that on her site." But, on the specific page you have linked, she does not have protozoans listed under "Parasites", so I can see why some people would not read past that to the Protozoan heading and assume that Panacur treats all parasitic infections. This could be ambiguous. She was obviously expecting people to read the entire page, and not just stop after 'Parasites.' The vast majority of herp keepers are clueless that coccidia and giardia are also parasites, and require separate medicines to treat.

Many people have very negative opinions of Melissa, and somehow have come to the conclusion she is a rabid animal rights activist along the lines of PETA, but that is far from the truth. She simply believes in educating and informing herp keepers of the responsibility of having herps, and the proper husbandry that is required. She is primarily an Iguana person, and some of her care information is incorrect with many other reptile and amphibian species. But, at least she has taken more time, energy, and dedication than any other source I know of to provide as much general information as she has on her site, most of which is a valuable resource.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

Hopefully, you have noticed that in my particular posts I clearly stated that "if she really says that on her site."

ay, I did notice and understand your reference clearly.

n/p
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

I used the word "everything" in the same tone as Marcia did, with a scarcastic undertone. I'm sorry that the inflectional meaning didn't come across as well as it should have. I really didn't feel that a better qualifier was necessary...Perhaps I should have put quotation marks on the word "everything" in the subject line of my post but alas, Kingsnake only allows so many characters in the subject heading. Mayhaps we need a sarcasm emoticon.

As Marcia has said, she can now understand why people think what they do after showing her that page. She asked a question and I gave her my speculation on what I thought the reason was. My intent was not to "bash" Ms. Kaplan. If I was "bashing" anyone, it's those who were just described...those who don't read, don't listen, don't seek out the help they need, etc. and end up harming their animals further.

PS. Maybe you can tell me why people are so quick to jump on others in this forum? Why don't people give others the benefit of doubt?

Panacur is a product that is used in almost all carnivorous and omnivorous animals including all the larger felidae(tigers, lions, etc), Ursidae (bears) and domestic animals including cats, dogs, cattle, and horses. The variability of the intestinal tracts of each species therefore makes Fenbendozole (panacur) able to treat some intestinal parasites in some species while it is not as effective in others. A good example is that in cattle it can treat tapeworms (species specific to bovine) but it does not work very well for tapeworms in dogs and cats. Fenbendazole treats ascarids, hookworms whipworms and tapeworms in dogs, ascarids and hookworms in most cats (again in the larger cats it can cover different intestinal parasites). It can also treat Giardia in a slightly dose in dogs. Anyway, what I am trying to get at is that it can treat most parasites but not in every species. Important fact to remember is that on the on the label for dogs it states the another benzimidazole(class of drug that panacur is) has been reported to cause hepatotoxicity (liver damage) in some studies. Although this is not documented with Fenbedazole, do you think that anyone has ever done studies on reptile and prolonged ingestion studies. I hope that this information helps some people understand that this is a drug, not a supplement and should be used only by individuals that have an understanding of the drug, how it works and most importantly any negative effects. Remember, all drugs need to get broken down by the body and excreted in urine and feces.

p.s. Yes I am a veterinarian.

Boy, are you ever going to get bombarded with info requests on this forum! Perhaps you can help us settle some of our "great debates?" LOL!
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

To be honest with you, there are a number of extremely smart people on this forum who really have an great understanding of gecko health which actually makes me very happy. That is why I do not say much in regards to problems because most people on this site are very informed and give good advice and suggest seeing a veterinarian when necessary.

marcia is about as good as it gets for help and advise on here i trust her compleatly.
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danny h.

1.3 leopard geckos

nipple... what should i do hehehe
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

nipple, but yesterday, when she was doing the gecko dance, my male gecko pulled off some unshed skin and revealed her nipple and some nipple jewelry she was wearing!
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Sarah Stettler aka Starling
Sarah@stargecko.com
StarGecko.Com COMING SOON! Star Quality Leopard Geckos
Specializing in Hypotangerine Tremper Albinos

i hear ya, the crazy thing those geckos do... once one left me a note that said iss off... can't ya see we are busy here" and then i was looking at one of my females the other day checking to see if she was gravid... and at first glance i thought she was but as i inspected her i noticed she had a princess albert on her cloaca (cute little ring piercing by the way had a ying yang symbol dangling from it) and had some normal swelling .... well now everytime she walks i can hear the distiinct jingle jangle of her jewelry draging the ground.....LOL the things our domesticated pets do!!!!
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

Maybe you can answer a question that has been puzzling us for a little bit...What would cause a Leopard Gecko not to grow? A couple of us have leos that refuse to grow, myself included, and I'd love to figure out this enigma. She appears to be healthy except for her size and I want my little girl to grow! LOL! I took a fecal in and it came up clear. What should I have tested now?

This may frustrate people but I think on think to understand that even some of the best minds may not have an answer for this. I have read somewhere that there is more of an incidence in these not growing or wasting diseases in leopard geckos over the past few years. Maybe part of it is us with breeding to get certain traits. Remember that wild caught leopard geckos are all very similar in appearance. Maybe a gene that is for small geckos, somewhat like poodles can be multiple sizes from selective breeding or maybe an absorption problem. I have heard people talk about intestinal disorders such as malabsorption or inflammatory bowel disease but I guess it would depend upon what the feces looked like and any evidence of parasites. I have done multiple fecals on my own geckos and found nothing when I know there is something and sometimes it takes 3-4 fecals to find something. I hope this helps a little but as I said, no one really knows, at this point it is only theory. By the way, how much does your gecko weigh?

Thank you kindly, Dr! I really appreciate your input on this. I must say...After I hit send, I regretted asking you about this (even though I'm really concerned about my girl). You see, I didn't want my question to spark 15 more, where you get bombarded with vet-groupies and therefore wish that you never mentioned you were a vet! LOL! If I have overstepped my bounds, I'm terribly sorry. Just tell me and I wont direct another question your way again.

My little girl was born in July. I got her in August and she's grown almost nothing since. When I had her fecal done about a week ago, she weighed 10 grams. I'm sure she still weighs the same.

Are you saying that I should have a few more fecals done?

n/p

i am not as elabborate and elequent in my wording
thank you
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

Robin, there is no one like you! Somehow, you say the things I sometimes really want to say in a way that just about everyone can understand.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

well shucks.......
i am one of those people that are very straight to the point and blunt, sometimes it comes across rude and sometimes not....... i dont like beating around the bush about things LOL...... i am one of those people whom you do not ask for an honest opinion on something because you might like what i have to say......i get it from my father, in this case i think it is an inherited trait passed downLOL i'm "het" for a$$?
but i am a really nice person , i just at times come across like an aSShole on the web
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-robin struck
Geckoheads And Geeks

No wonder I like you so much. I knew from the first time I read one of your posts, if I asked you something, you'd tell me directly...and today proved that! LMAO!! I guess I'm het for donkey too!! LOL!

Boy oh boy. Thank everyone for your input and thanks for exposing me to KP's sight. I found some useful info I had not seen before. I don't usually take any one persons advice for granted until I do more research. I currently have over 30 geckos not a couple and that number will grow greater this year. I was specifically looking for preventive maintaince for nematodes since I use crix regulary and they are known to carry nematodes that are normally treated with panucar. I have a good scale and good house cleaning skills and would have researched dosages before using, in fact I have ordered the Klingenberg on the subject. I live in the middle of the Mohave Valley, far away from big towns with lots of vets. If I had a problem I can afford to go to a vet. That was not the intent of my question. thanks for the feed back and sorry for the uproar on a certain undeserving person I had never even heard of. Im have faith in my skills and believe the leos I'm producing are the proof.

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My posts and replies are my experiences only
1.2.15 Tokays
1.4.10 Leos(13 albino)
1.2.0 AFT's(amel male)
0.2.0 Stenodactylus Petrii(Dune Geckos)

Actually, I am the one that started this 'can of worms' by asking the question, "Why do people think Panacur cures everything?" In reality, it really isn't a can of worms... it opened up a great subject that hopefully many people read and learned from!

But, your question never really did get answered. I am one of those breeders who treats my geckos with Panacur about 3 times a year, and I get mine from my veterinarian. I am fortunate that I have a great rapport with him, and he knows that I've been breeding for about 10 years and have a very good understanding of parasites and medications. However, this is an exception and not the rule.

I know of a source for liquid Panacur that can be ordered over the internet, and as soon as I can find it, I will email you with the link.
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Marcia McGuiness
Golden Gate Geckos
www.goldengategeckos.com

Thank you Marcia. The biggest reason I asked is cause I can get the paste form but feel I could administer correct doses better with the liquid form of it. I have no prob with vets what so ever and if needed will go there. Mine actually wants to see each gecko and test each. Now I don't mind a vet bill at all but I'm sure you know the cost per visit and now times that by 30. Thats my point in my case just to prevent a problem in the first place from happening by using a safe, with correct dosage medicine. I actually enjoyed the insight this post brought out. Thanks all.
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My posts and replies are my experiences only
1.2.15 Tokays
1.4.10 Leos(13 albino)
1.2.0 AFT's(amel male)
0.2.0 Stenodactylus Petrii(Dune Geckos)

I agree. You certainly did not open a can of worms. You asked a question that I am sure plenty of people wanted to ask and actually created some good dialogue. I think that a good relationship with a your vet or a vet could help you out in regards to exams for all 30 geckos because that would be a little crazy not only for you but for him also. Good Luck!!