Reptile & Amphibian Forums

.. I wanted to answer your questions and not have the important reply lost way down in the threads.

Dean,

First, I wouldn't make too many assumptions about the origins of your snakes from these few photos. The Indigo in Texas has a very broad range, from the mouth of the Rio Grande northwest to at least Langtry, east and southeast in an uneven line through San Antonio and then the Gulf coast to somewhere north of Rockport. There is at least one population that will key out as couperi, just from looking at the labials and post-oculars. A better guess of where your animals came from would be the Kennedy and Kleberg county area, there was an oriental guy operating from Corpus Christi that sent very many WC, illegal, Texas Indigos from there to Florida wholesalers as recently as about 5 years ago.. Not that I'm saying that is all a bad thing or that you have illegal snakes.. read on...

My earliest memories of catching and keeping reptiles are of these great snakes! The first one I caught was in the early '60s. Later, when I was old enough to read 'Snakes, The Keeper and the Kept', I got totally lost in the fun, science (and art) of finding and raising herps, especially Indigos. Now they are rapidly disappearing, despite full protection by the state of Texas. It's habitat loss and fragmentation mainly, but a very large part of the loss of the Indigos has to do with ignorant people killing them wherever they see or encounter them.

Again, when I was young these big animals roamed the neighbourhood. Nobody would kill them, we had big rats in the garage, why kill a snake? You could walk around a diamondback rattlesnake on the way to school in the morning, this was in Brownsville, houses and people all around. My dad killed every rattlesnake he ever saw but if he or any of the adults saw me or any kid mistreating an Indigo or just generally goofing with any snake in a mean or unsafe way they would wail the crud out of us. Now that is all changed, people everywhere will almost always kill any snake they see. And with the expansion and sprawl the snakes have no place to hide. Here's a spine-cramping example.. out in the same area where I took those recent photos of Indigos I recently stopped and watched a guy hang three Indigos, 3-4' long by their chins on the barbs of his fence.. I walked over and asked him where he had found those and why he had killed them.. his answer 'over by the water, we kill all the snakes we see'.. There were many other barbs on that fence with the signs of having had snakes hung there.

Now Texas is a big place, and there are lots of Indigos in Texas and because there are vast tracts of undeveloped ranch land (read that no water to develop the property) there will be indigos in Texas for a very long time. But the days of seeing these great snakes and living with them and having them teach us tolerance for snakes and natural things is going, going, gone.

And the folks at TPWD haven't got a single clue. They think the Indigos are protected. Here's another story that will churn your guts.. A U of Somewhere team, with all the permits they could ever want, was doing free-tailed bat surveys in the highway culverts of Webb county. They would put mist-nets over the ends of the big pipes and count and release the bats. I used to visit those same areas to look for lizards and snakes. Now when they were finished they left some of the nets or parts of them (maybe they were torn) under the road. One hot July day I happened to stop at one culvert.. 11 adult indigos, which used the culverts to cross under the road and also hunt there had pushed their heads through the discarded nets and then trapped, slowly died, twisting, contorting, puking and roasting to death as the sun moved into the draw.. I was so enraged and saddened I could not see straight for a while. Afterwards I went culvert to culvert checking for nets and if present, removing them, many had killed Indigos. I did also free several that had not yet died... And, in case you're interested, I did notify the TPWD, the guy who took my complaint didn't even take out his notebook.

Texas Indigos are protected, they are protected, from us! The only people who give a damn about them at all.

Gus

You realy struck a nerve with that one man. Tell me where I can find that idiot with the barbed wire fence. I've got a trick for him! I'm not kidding.
Tony.

Well, me too but you're getting angry at the wrong end of the problem.

The state and the feds take our fees and taxes and they do a lot of stuff with it, even some good stuff, especially if you are a gun-hunter or a fisherman. But for guys like us those monies just buy another badge, gun, car and ex-cop to hassle us when the regular hunters aren't out in the woods. And I'm not even angry at those uniforms, they just do as they are told or allowed to do.

We need a better approach to non-game management. And as is seen in this instance, prohibition is not a successful management tool! The authorities should take the lead educating people and after that... yes, busting them too, whether they poach animals for money or kill them because they don't know better.

It seems pretty clear to me that what we have now isn't working..

Gus
-----
Gus
A. Rentfro
RioBravoReptiles.com
www.riobravoreptiles.com

"Quality is not an accident. Perfectly healthy animals are a minimum requirement.. everything else is just salesmanship" gus

I have been studying eastern indigo populations for years and have been amazed that I cannot find A SINGLE PAPER written on wild Texas indigos. It seems obvious the state of Texas "protected" them by passing a law, and then forgot about them.

Your message it the most I've really heard about their current populations. I always assumed that they were probably doing better than couperi, since as you mentioned there are still some vast areas of undisurbed habitat.

As the eastern indigos are proving...the Texans will proabably eventually suffer the same fate: Where there is lots of unfragmented habitat, you'll have relatively healthy populations.
Where people and roads are around...they will slowly dissappear.

That net story was gut-wretching.

Fight the good fight out there Gus...spread the word that they control rodent populations and re harmless. It may save a few.

Thanks again for taking the time to write, and we'd love to have you as a regular contributor to this forum...we need someone who knows wild erebennus!

Dean Alessandrini

This is just another example of exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. A National Herp Society could work to fix this kind of crap. There is power in numbers, and great power in great numbers. Especialy if they are well organized. It just dose'nt have to be this way. And if we do nothing, we have no right to complain!
That is why I just spent the last two days sending e-mail messages about this subject to herp. societies around the country. I would encourage the rest of you to do the same. I extended an invitation to all of them to come here and join this conversation. We must start somewhere, and this is as good a place as any. I sent the message to every single one, but if we all do it, we will surely get a greater response.
Ever since I was a small child, as far back as my mind can go, I have loved snakes, and I have hated those who hate them. I don't feel much different about those who don't care. I always wanted to do somthing about it, butin the 60s there was no internet, no herp societies, no herp shows, and no way to come together. Now there is a way to do what I dreamed. So there is no excuse not to!
So contact your buddies, send those e-mails, and think of just who and how to run this thing. I don't have a clue but I'm willing to do whatever I can. Whatya think?

www.parcplace.org

Partners in Reptile and amphibian conservation.

This is a great national group...the don't have a functional message board right now, but it's kind of an email chain thing.

Gus,

Thanks for this post and for enlightening us. I had NO idea that these beautifull creatures were maligned so much in their state of origin. It truly is sickening how people sometimes view animals, especially snakes. The irony of this all is that the protection afforded these snakes basically helps US, those that care about them , from actually helping them in ANy way, no matter how small. It reminds me very much of the San Fransisco garter snake, which is thoroughly protected in its habitat.To my knowledge, Zoos arent attempting to breed them, and private hobbyists cant have them. But, they are garters, and BREED like garters, with goodly numbers of offspring.Years ago, when I was in the bay Area, I saw some kids with a dead one, that they evidently had caught, killed and played with. So much for protecting them in the wild. Redtape and Beauracracy...

Thanks for sharing Gus,

Fred

Hi Gus, not sure who you are, but your post is far from my experience..We're probably about the same age...I caught many TX Indies as a kid in the 60's and still find them when quail hunting in TX...I keep all the subs now except Uni's...

My experience is that everyone in TX knows a TX indigo and never kill them just because they are snakes...I've been hunting and had friends scream murder because a snake crawled over their foot..Didn't shoot because it was an Indigo...Farmers and Ranchers tell me they love havbing them because they kill all the 'rattlers..Just my experience..

I absolutely agree with you(unfortunately) concerning TX Parks and Wildlife dept...

Just a different experience..I sure like mine more than yours!!

Carl snotex@adelphia.net
-----
Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

is S Texas being infiltrated by yankess unfamilir with the local wildlife perhaps?

Also...I wonder how the typical Mexican-Texan feels about these animals?

I have never really heard, but with the population of S. TX now being almost 50% Mexican origin...like first or second generation...

These people would have a big impact on the survival of the snakes.