Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I asked further down but only got one response (thanks Jeff). I had two kings last summer who each in their time laid eggs, shed, and a few weeks later got very fat for a little while. They were not bred a second time, and they laid no eggs. However I thought that perhaps they ovulated, and then reabsorbed rather than laying slugs.

I've had two different opinions....

Impossible, if they ovulate, they lay slugs
Totally Possible, in the wild they wouldn't lay slugs

Anyone else have an opinion?
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~Sasheena

It seems that the terminology is confusing people. Your snake may have developed ripe/swollen ovules that were not released or fertilized. Since you did not breed her the ovules were not released from the ovaries and after time they shrank to their non-breeding season size. If the ova (egg) had been released she would have then passed infertile eggs such as happens when some eggs in a clutch are infertile but others are. Swollen ovules are not eggs and eggs are not absorbed but, swollen ovules may shrink until next breeding season. This is much the same in human females where a couple of ovules swell and ripen each month. Usually one ova is released and the others shrink until next month.

Hope this helps,
Bob Bull

Thank you, that is a very logical and sound response!

So you are saying that my breeding females probably could have had second clutches had I bred them (as indicated by the swelling?), but due to the fact that I didn't breed them, they did not lay any eggs?

Anyway, just want to make sure I got this straight. If both girls swell up in the same way this year, I am inclined to present them to a male... IF they don't lose much during their first clutches. Both females in question were first time breeders last year, and neither lost any large amount of weight and were very quick to put it back on. They also both wintered VERY well.
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~Sasheena

of kingsnake breeding because I'm a novice breeder(of snakes). The reproductive tract and processes that I mentioned are typical to many different animals. I'm sure that if I get this next part wrong Keith, Sean, Mark, etc... will jump on the mistake.

Yes, you probably could have double clutched her last year. This spring, I paid attention to the first female out of brumation and I felt the ovules as they developed leading to her first shed. The difference from day to day wasvery obvious once I figured out where to feel . She bred as soon as she shed now I hope to have some albino easterns this summer. Her ovules have not noticably changed size since breeding, but they haven't shrunk either.

I've followed your posts since last March and it is obvious that you take great care of your animals so a double clutching shouldn't overly stress them. Good animal husbandry is the key with breeding any animal.

Good luck,
Bob Bull
p.s. I like Yertl too (The King of Salamasond)

>>Thank you, that is a very logical and sound response!
>>
>>So you are saying that my breeding females probably could have had second clutches had I bred them (as indicated by the swelling?), but due to the fact that I didn't breed them, they did not lay any eggs?

Sasheena, two other possibilities:
1) sometimes females that ovulate will produce eggs--often good, fertile eggs--even if not put with a male for their second clutch, because they've retained sperm from the first clutch copulations. I've had that happen with females i hadn't intended to get a second clutch from. Nature's own course, and all that.
2) sometimes eggs form but are retained, i'm emailing with one guy right now who's got a big female that he thought had laid all her eggs but this winter discovers she's still got two in her. I've had two snakes die over the years with eggs retained from prior seasons that had become infected--up to a year later.
3) just to throw out a theory here that i revisit each year...hypothesis: sometimes the king or milksnakes that we say "resorbed" their eggs actually lay them and then eat them: the snake is still fat the next day, only slowly gets smaller as the eggs are digested, so it's easy to perceive this as gradual absorption. Closer examination, of couirse, would show that the day before this event, the swelling/eggs are low down, close to the vent, and immediately after the event the "swelling" would be more mid-body, in the stomach. I've got one report from a fella who says he SAW the first couple eggs in a clutch in the morning, that evening found the female seemingly still gravid and NO eggs in the cage. With that single observation, which i can't confirm with 100% certainty, this idea remains just a hypothesis. But i think it very neatly describes some situations that can not adequately be explained by "resorption".

I bring that 3rd possibility up now because i'd encourage everyone to at least entertain the possibility and allow for it when observing their laying females this season...maybe we'll get better insight if we all do that.

peace
terry

A friend of mine had his female Graybanded Kingsnake eat her second clutch. Same thing, he saw that she was laying her second clutch that night and then went the next morning to pull the eggs out and she had already eaten them.

Kerby...