Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In a post below, they are talking about live vs frozen prey. One person is saying that feeding exclusively f/t causes egg-binding.

I feed ONLY f/t mice and rats. I will probably always feed f/t, even if I start breeding my own rodents again, I will freeze them after I Co2 them.

As this is the first time I've seen egg-binding as a reason to feed live, I'd like some input from the people I "know and trust" in here. What's the deal here?
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Dianne
AKA IcedGoddess
6.7 Cornsnakes
1.3 Cats
0.1 Child
IcedGoddess Creations
Castle Serpents

is that the incidence of egg binding is increased by lack of exercise. You could increase exercise with more handling (when not full of food or stressed in some way), letting them crawl or swim outside their cage (supervised, of course), feeding live prey (could possibly be dangerous, although it is not USUALLY if supervised), or feeding f/t, but on tongs, simulating live struggling to get the snake to constrict it. Some keepers prefer one method over another, some are more time-consuming, some less. Depends on your circumstances and preferences.

These are only my own opinions, but based on experience and discussions with other breeders over the years.

As i wrote below - do as you wish.
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>>is that the incidence of egg binding is increased by lack of exercise. You could increase exercise with more handling (when not full of food or stressed in some way), letting them crawl or swim outside their cage (supervised, of course), feeding live prey (could possibly be dangerous, although it is not USUALLY if supervised), or feeding f/t, but on tongs, simulating live struggling to get the snake to constrict it. Some keepers prefer one method over another, some are more time-consuming, some less. Depends on your circumstances and preferences.
>>
>>These are only my own opinions, but based on experience and discussions with other breeders over the years.

I was wondering. In a perverse way, as I am wont to do. Is it the snakes lack of muscle tone due to feeding F/T or is it the snake that wouldn't have muscle tone anyway? Here is my thinking. All my corns hit F/T prey as if it were live and wrap it and eat. I suppose if I had one that didn't wrap then it might be an issue. Then the feeding live is 'forcing' them to use muscle.
Maybe bigger enclosures is the answer.
Yes, I know it is a different animal entirely but my Ball Pythons never eat anything but dead and never wrap and it has been noted on that board that BPs don't egg bind.
Another thought is are we breeding the likelihood of egg binding into them? Bullmastiffs (again a totally diff. animal but...) used to free birth regularly. Now many, and in some lines all, have C sections. In some it is pup size....but largely the females have little or no uterine strength and don't have the contractions needed to birth a litter. I don't know what practices are. And like feeding it is different with everyone I would think. But if I had a female that was good size and age and still egg bound I wouldn't breed her again and I don't think I would breed any offspring. Is this something that is kept track of?
I guess I am saying there is way too many variables to say that feeding f/t causes egg binding. Fast food makes fat people....yeah! along with too sedentary an existence, stress, and lack of exercise.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

That would be another good idea. I would like to build some "Habitrail" - like cages similar to Bob Applegate's. The sections are above one another and connected by tubes. Some levels are cooler, some warmer. It would be a great way to encourage exercise. Personally, I don't think live or f/t has anything to do with it except as a way of increasing exercise, which could be done is several ways as I have mentioned.

I don't know much about ball pythons, but maybe they evolved with a less active lifestyle and don't require much exercise, or just are not very prone to egg binding for whatever reason. I do believe that a tendency towards egg binding could be bred into or out of a line (not completely, just percentages), and that it would not be a good idea to use babies for future breeders hatched from females that are prone to that problem.

It is true that there could be lots of unknown variables causing the problems, but one very large breeder told me that when they switched to live from f/t (they didn't have time to let their snakes roam around or to handle them, and to my knowledge, they have not had any injuries since the switch), they have had far less egg binding than before, although they still have problems from time to time. That doesn't mean you should switch from f/t if you prefer it, but it could be prudent to increase exercise through whatever method you prefer - just my opinon.

I just want to add someting. It's true that snakes can be injured when you feed them live mice... but, if it occur, it must be very rare because corns are VERY fast at killing mice and that is natural for them to do so. I also had this fear before to try it, but my snakes have never been injured, and mice are not agressive at all because they don't know they must fear them. They walk around and sometimes step on the snake just like it was a rock... and then... the snake jump on it and the mice can not reply at all!!!!!!!!
BUT.... it can occur, so its a choice!!

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1 ? stripped amel
1 ? anery
1 male hypoamelanstic

What bothered me when the topic came up was the claim that feeding dead rodents was a cause of egg binding. I'm not that long into this hobby, and don't want to find out I'm endangering them by feeding f/t, when here I thought I was helping them.

I can completely understand how lack of exercise can cause weakness and lead to edd-binding. I'm getting more familiar with the word "atrophy" every day, as it's a part of my illness, but in me it's not caused by my diet, it's caused by lack of exercise because I can't move around as well as I once did.

Thanks for chiming in on this Kathy. I've already gone a size larger in boxes than what many people use for racks, and Ruby's now in a 55 gal tank, so I figure, I'll keep them working out and keep them on f/t. I feel better about it all this way. And that's just my opinion

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Dianne
AKA IcedGoddess
6.7 Cornsnakes
1.3 Cats
0.1 Child
IcedGoddess Creations
Castle Serpents

>>That would be another good idea. I would like to build some "Habitrail" - like cages similar to Bob Applegate's. The sections are above one another and connected by tubes. Some levels are cooler, some warmer. It would be a great way to encourage exercise. Personally, I don't think live or f/t has anything to do with it except as a way of increasing exercise, which could be done is several ways as I have mentioned.
>>
>>I don't know much about ball pythons, but maybe they evolved with a less active lifestyle and don't require much exercise, or just are not very prone to egg binding for whatever reason. I do believe that a tendency towards egg binding could be bred into or out of a line (not completely, just percentages), and that it would not be a good idea to use babies for future breeders hatched from females that are prone to that problem.
>>
>>It is true that there could be lots of unknown variables causing the problems, but one very large breeder told me that when they switched to live from f/t (they didn't have time to let their snakes roam around or to handle them, and to my knowledge, they have not had any injuries since the switch), they have had far less egg binding than before, although they still have problems from time to time. That doesn't mean you should switch from f/t if you prefer it, but it could be prudent to increase exercise through whatever method you prefer - just my opinon.

I can just see the look on my visitor's faces when they see a big habitrail set up. Hehehe. I like the image though.

BP's are 'weird' They are shy, don't do a lot of moving and mine eat less of the year than they eat. Yet they grow and thrive. They just make me a bit nuts doing it. I do think they are an anamoly though. Especially when you see the size of their dang eggs! You wonder how they were in there, let alone how they got out!

I guess herpetology isn't exempt from the same troubles as other petdom....obese, flabby pets.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

in herps, especially the smaller ones like corns, who just don't need as much as bigger snakes. I've even caught myself anxious to move up in mouse size, or feed more so they grow faster. But I haven't done it yet My cat's are obese enough, I don't need obese snakes too! lol
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Dianne
AKA IcedGoddess
6.7 Cornsnakes
1.3 Cats
0.1 Child
IcedGoddess Creations
Castle Serpents

I certainly am not an expert but I would tend to think that egg binding is a result of multple factors, not just one. I would imagine that the lack of proper nutrients would be at the top of the list. Maybe the QUALITY of mice is more important than people ever really think about. I've experienced getting some terrible f/t mice and did research to find a high quality f/t mouse source. I also think that excercise is a great idea. I have an old chair that I let my corns climb on while cleaning their enclosures. Temps could play into egg binding problems. Also, as others mentioned could be simply genetics.

I have fed live in the past and can tell you first hand DON'T if unless you have to. I had a bad experience and lost a herp as a result. Probably most likely carelessness on my part but nevertheless...its an unecessary risk.

I like, as Kathy stated, tease feeding all of my snakes. The only problem I have now is that many of them expect it now or they won't eat. I truly believe that they think its a live mouse (esp when I dip the mouse in warm water). I still have some corns that NEVER constrict so I wonder if a live mouse would do more harm than good in terms of stressing them out.

Justmy.02$

Peace,
Jason
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