Reptile & Amphibian Forums

is their anything thats real good for helping them gain weight thats good for them?
my female saharan is eating peas collard greens and whatever other greens my moms gets at the store.
she just looks so deflated compared to my other fatso lizards

what protein do you feed her?

you should feed her small amounts of protein, like waxies, crix, supers, or mealies. just feeding sparingly....only 1 or 2 every other day. hope this helps'

trevor

UroJade,

I personally disagree with Trevor as I do not believe you should feed your Saharan small amounts of protein, like waxies, crix, supers, 1 or 2 every other day.

As I have mentioned in previous posts, there is quite a bit of research that suggests feeding herbivores and some omnivores a diet with too much animal protein can lead to serious health complications with the kidneys and liver. There is conflicting information on whether a uromastyx is an herbivore or omnivore. I am under the belief that they are more herbivore. One field study on ornates indicated that they did not seek out insects in the wild as adult or juveniles and only ingested a minor amount through vegetation.
In my opinion, feeding 1-2 insects every other day is not ‘sparingly’ for an herbivore.

Regarding the insects mentioned, if you are going to feed insects you might want to take a look at the nutritional value. Crickets have a better calcium to phos ratio than that of the larval insects such as the meal worms and wax worms. The larval insects have a much higher fat count. Some suggest that the wax worm is so low in nutritional value and so high in fat that it is not beneficial to feed to reptiles except to those that store fat such as the leopard gecko but there is even conflicting evidence and opinions on this. It is my understanding that the calcium phos balance can be offset somewhat by feeding the insect a specific diet (depends on insect) and including calcium in that diet.

You just receive your Saharan a few weeks ago and they are notorious for not acclimating as quickly as some other uromastyx. The fact that she is eating well is a good sign at this point. She is probably a recent import so I would not expect to see a lot of weight on her right now..

The only accurate way to determine whether or not your uro is gaining weight is to measure and track her weight. If you do not have a good gram scale to weight your uro, I would suggest looking at her tail and limbs rather than her belly to judge her weight. The tail should be nice and thick and the tail bone should not noticeable protrude. Again, she might be a little underweight right now if recently imported. If your Saharan continues to eat well and is not gaining any weight, I would suggest having a fecal done

In my humble opinion, I believe that one of the ongoing health risk for uromastyx in captivity is rapid weight gain and too much weight. Diet plays a HUGE part in this. I personally would be more worried about the ‘fatso’ lizards rather than those that are not fat or overly thin.

Just my opinion

I agree with your thoughts on the growth rate and the feeding of insects to herbivores. I've got a (sort-of) related question about baby saharans.

I got 2 new Saharans almost 2 weeks ago, as well. They seem to be basking, and their temps, etc are all good. But I'm not seeing the food in their dishes go down any. I'm not sure they're eating.

They're very young, and captive-hatched, and definitely on the scrawny side. I know they're taking some time to settle in. I'm wondering, how long do I wait for them to eat on their own before looking at taking them to the vet?

Or do you know any way to entice them to eat?

I offer food in a very low dish every day, with a mixture of collards, peas, green beans, I added parsley yesterday, bok choy the other day, and I've put some soaked juvie iguana pellets in the salad today. Any other ideas? We're still stuck in cold and snowy weather, so the dandelions won't be out until probably April or May, tho I can sometimes get the greens in the grocery store.

I've even been looking around to see if I could buy human-grade edible flowers, but that fad seems to have passed here, and flower stores only have flowers pumped full of chemicals.

Any advice or help would be appreciated!

Nicki

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0.0.2 Uromastyx geyri (Saharan Uromastyx) - New babies!
1.1.0 Uromastyx maliensis (Mali Uromastyx) - Spike and Lizzy
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri (Variable (Thayer’s) Kingsnake) - Kavi
0.0.1 Lampropeltis triangulum campbelli (Pueblan Milksnake) - Callia
0.2.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis (Red-Sided Garter Snakes) - Spot and Fluffy

Hi, I am relatively new to the "lizard" world. However, my Mali that I got roughly 7 weeks ago was a little "slow" starting out to eat - but I put some of the soaked Juvenile Iguana pellets on my hand and she/he would eat them off there (be careful - don't have them on the ends of your fingers - might decide to munch on the fingers by accident!! LOL)

Then I would try hand feeding her greens, now she eats like a pig, but still likes to be hand fed!!

Just an idea if you haven't tried it already.
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Kelly

0.0.1 Uromastyx - Digger
0.0.1 Bearded Dragon - Spike (Actually Daughters)
0.2 Cats - Smokey & Freckles
1.1 Dogs - Rascal (Shar-Pei/Lab Mix - puppy) & Sabrina (Shepherd Mix)
0.0.8 Fancy Goldfish - One Eye & F2 (only 2 named - sorry!!)

We'll try that!
Thanks for the idea. I'm willing to try anything now!!!

Nicki
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0.0.2 Uromastyx geyri (Saharan Uromastyx) - New babies!
1.1.0 Uromastyx maliensis (Mali Uromastyx) - Spike and Lizzy
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri (Variable (Thayer’s) Kingsnake) - Kavi
0.0.1 Lampropeltis triangulum campbelli (Pueblan Milksnake) - Callia
0.2.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis (Red-Sided Garter Snakes) - Spot and Fluffy

Go to a health food store and ask for bee pollen granules. When I first got Arthur, I sprinkled some on her greens and she went nuts over it. And it should be available at any time of the year (though fresh is best).

Good luck!
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Torey
1.1 Uromastyx Geyri (Joe and Arthur)
1.1 Anolis Carolinensis (Bowser and Leeloo)
1.1 African Dwarf Frogs (Bruce and Sheila)
1.0 Betta Splendens (Mr. Miagi)
1.0 Sunset Dwarf Gourami (Sideshow)
0.0.1 False Spotted Corydoras (Spot)
0.0.2 Metae Corydoras
0.0.1 Dwarf Sucking Oto (Tootsie)
1.1 Felis Domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)

Nicki,

As Saharans are notorious for acclimating slowly (people getting tired of hearing this?), they might actually be nibbling here and there without you knowing it.

I always suggest that uromastyx owners have a gram scale and track the weight every few days for the first few weeks after shipping. (This is especially true with young uromastyx as it is easy for them to go downhill quickly and staying on top of the issue will help.) If they continue to put on weight then I would suggest going to once a week on the weight check, then once a month unless you see a problem. If you do not own a gram scale, I would highly recommend purchasing one.

I am going to assume that you do not own a gram scale at this point and make the following recommendation:
Cover any glass sides of the enclosure to lessen the stress caused by movements outside the enclosure. Ration the food so that you know exactly how many ‘pieces’ of each item you put in the enclosure. Although I think it is important to observe the behavior of newly shipped animals, try to do so without stressing the uro. Do a food ‘count’ each night and remove any old food and start over the next day. I recommend feeding early in the morning as this seems to be the time that my uros eat most aggressively. If you should see that some of the food is disappearing, it still will not tell you if one or both of your uros are eating.

I am currently working with a young ornate who apparently injured his mouth during shipping. I have been feeding a product made by Flukers called Repta Aid Herbivore Emergency Aid. I am not using a feeding needle but rather just dropping a small amount on the front of his mouth with a syringe. I find that he readily licks this stuff up. I used it for a female who was shipped after brumation and very sluggish and off feed. She also loved the stuff. Although this is not a long term solution, it might be a short term one if they are not eating. I have seen this product at two of the bigger pet store chains: Petco and Petsmart. One warning, this product does contain selenium so I make sure not to exceed the recommended dosage .

Enticing foods:, bee pollen works but I use very sparingly with the young. From my understanding, certain flowers (tulips for one) used for bee pollen collection can be toxic for uros and this concerns me with the smaller uromastyx. I purchase a local bee pollen and have spoken directly with the manufacturer to verify what flowers are used for collection. Most people will not have this advantage.
You are on the right track with edible flowers. Two of the grocery stores in my area carry edible flowers under the brand name Quail Mountain Herbs. These can be found in the refrigerated section in small plastic containers with herbs like basil. I purchase the Johnny Jump Ups and Nasturtiums but there are quite a few varieties.
My younger uros seem particularly found of the colorful pelleted finch/canary food by Zupreem. You can usually find this in your local pet store.

One last word at the risk of sounding like I am preaching…..Double check your temperatures. Not only is the temperature itself important but so is the proper gradient. If you have any questions on this, feel free to post a question out here on the forum or send me an email.

even if i wanted to feed them bugs they wouldn't eat them
neither of my Saharans show any instrest in insects.
i guess i'll just keep giving her greens and veggies and be patient.

i'm glad that you told me. i was just going off of what i was told by doug dix....as i have been trying to feed that much to my uro for awhile. i haven't though cuz most of the time i don't have any insects at my house...but when i did i would throw one in....only like 2 a week. but i'm glad that i posted that...

he's gonna be getting less insects. he waasn't getting as much as i have outlined though either....not even half that much.

thanx though for saying that....good to know.

trevor

well. 3 days ago i gave my uro 2 crickets and he ate them like he didn't eat anything for 1 week!
although it was the first time i gave him crickets and after that 2 small meal worms!that is all for a while!
i have had him for 4 months and this was the first time!he was so funny to watch when he was chasing cricket across his terarium!then i gave him mealworm and he ate it from my hand!that was also for the first time he ate somthing from my hand!
now i'll stick with veggies (mostly endive)

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1.0.0 Ball python (Oz)
0.0.1 Hardwicki Uro (Amon)
0.1.0 Black cat (Tomika)

I want to makes sure that everyone understands that I am not 100% anti- insect. If 1% of a uromastyx diet in the wild is made up of animal protein (even if not intentionally ingested), then I believe that a small amount of animal protein in captivity is ok. My stance is on frequency and amount not on whether or not insects should be provided.

it is almost 1%...actually Uros are 5% insect eaters the rest are veggies...so as far as i know it's good to give them 1-2 insects per week!or a bit more rarely!
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1.0.0 Ball python (Oz)
0.0.1 Hardwicki Uro (Amon)
0.1.0 Black cat (Tomika)

Samo,

Due to your little guys size, if you do feed crickets in the future, I would recommend removing the back legs just to be safe.

Just a suggestion

thanks...in the future, yea but in a while!but as i've seen, he ate it like a piece of cake!
but i will listen to you anyway!
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1.0.0 Ball python (Oz)
0.0.1 Hardwicki Uro (Amon)
0.1.0 Black cat (Tomika)

Samo,

I know that there is much conflicting data regarding uromastyx and insects. Take for example some of the care sheets right on this site- Randall Gray feels they are omnivorous while Doug Dix and Audrey Vanderlinden indicate they are mostly herbivores. One care sheet says feed superworms while another says never to feed superworms. While all of these people are pioneers in the field, keep in mind that some of these papers were written very early on admittedly without research on nutritional data. None of these people (that I am aware of) has actually done any ‘long term’ studies in the field on the diet of uromaystx.

I based my 1% figure on an actual study that was conducted in the field. I am curious- where did you get the 5% figure you are using? I am not certain that I saw that figure anywhere and would like to read the article if possible.

I personally feel that the taste for insects might be for the most part- species driven. I believe that some species lie closer to an herbivore while some lean more towards an omnivore. It is when I am forced to lump the genus together as a whole, that my opinion is swayed to an herbivore.

Please understand that because I give an opinion on something, it does not mean that it has to be taken. I believe that everyone should gather all the information possible and then make a decision based on what they see, hear, and experience. Nothing comes close to the hands on experience you receive on a daily basis by actually working with these animals. I do like to throw opinions in the pot (so to say) so that everyone has another view or idea to toss around when making their decisions.

well said...
about 5%...it's not the exact number.i said it myself, cause i read that the best is to feed them with crickets or insects once per week (2 insects)
if you know what is better plese tell me, cause i don't really know everything and i'm always lookin forward to learn some more!
you know the saying...more heads knows more (i translated it from slovenian)
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1.0.0 Ball python (Oz)
0.0.1 Hardwicki Uro (Amon)
0.1.0 Black cat (Tomika)

'I' certainly cannot say what is best- I do not know if anyone could at this point.

In my opinion- long-term studies on a uromastyx diet in captivity with control groups is one way that I believe this can be determined. Again, long term. Just because a uro gains weight twice as fast in the first few years because it is fed insects does not convince me that this is what is 'best'. What if a long-term study with control groups showed that those fed insects grew at a much faster rate but had a lifespan that was 15-20 years shorter than those that were not fed insects? 'Best' may not always be what it appears.
Again, just my opinion.

I think that most of us Mali owners can vouch for the fact that they greedily relish insects. I am not sure about other Uro species, but Malis do not live in a place where they can eat flowers all day like the study of the Uros in Israel (according to my Geography professor who's done research in Mali). I think feeding the occasional insect (to Malis especially) is quite good. Hopefully they are well hydrated, it helps because of the protein. I feed mine insects only once every two months. I'll buy a 100 pack of superworms and feed them about 20 each in a two week period, with the rest going to my hedgehog (over about three weeks).
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Mark Martinez
University of Florida

Mark,

If I am not mistaken, the majority of malis come from the eastern part of Mali and the southern region of Algeria. Although vegetation is much more scattered, I believe that it still exits. If you look at the distribution map for two of the three plants that make up 84% of the ornates diet, you will see that they are also found in this section of Mali and Algeria.

What type of research did your geography professor do in Mali? Was it specific research on uromastyx or just the region?

Although I only own three malis, I wanted to let you know that only one out my three will eat insects. The one that will eat insects is the first uromastyx that I ever purchased. She was purchased from a specialty reptile store and regularly fed crickets in her enclosure prior to my purchasing her. The other two malis (male and female who will not look at an insect) were imported, had a short stay with a breeder and were not feed insects.

I guess the difficulty that I have with believing that the majority of uromastyx naturally seek out insects in the wild is by what I see with my own animals. Only 1 out of three of my malis and less than 50% of my other uros will eat insects. I have a difficult time understanding why the majority of them will not eat insects in captivity if they were doing this in their natural environment prior to being imported . None of my uros (with exception of two ornates) were captive bred.

Although I believe that insects might be tastefully appealing to uros (like candy to a kid), I think that it could be a habit acquired (for the most part) in captivity. You sort of approached this subject at the end of your post. Let me explain
I have found that uromastyx are naturally curious animals. I believe that if I threw a small piece of blue paper in the enclosure, some of my uromastyx would probably eat it. Now, if that paper was appealing to them from a ‘taste’ standpoint, they may continue to eat blue paper and do so aggressively. This would not necessarily mean that they would have sought out blue paper (had it existed) in their natural environment but in a small-contained area with their curious nature, it could very well happen. Once they have tried that appealing flavor, they may continue to readily eat it when offered. This logic supports what I see with most of my uros. It appears that those that were regularly offered insects in a small-enclosed area, will eat them. Those that were not, do not eat them. I offer insects only sparingly- maybe two or three times per year. None of those uros that originally refused insects upon arrival eat them now. However, I do believe that if I had continued to offer crickets on a ‘regular’ basis, some of them may eventually try them and acquire the taste. Could this also happen in their natural environment- certainly. Do I think that it happens with some uros, probably. Do I think that it happens with the majority of uromastyx-no. Do I hold these beliefs true for 'all' species- I can't say. Do I think we need more in depth studies in the natural environment like the one on ornates- absolutely. Until then, all we have is speculation.

You can try the t-rex Uromastyx dust. It has a small amount of protien from whey in it...plus lots of other good stuff. I use it as the only supp. for my Uros.
good luck

>>even if i wanted to feed them bugs they wouldn't eat them
>>neither of my Saharans show any instrest in insects.
>>i guess i'll just keep giving her greens and veggies and be patient.
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
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