Reptile & Amphibian Forums

currently in the state of Ga we cannot own native non venomous snakes with out a permit if do plan on keeping them we must use them for educational purposes and it cost $59 a year. We also must document the hours spent educating people each year. We can own native hots with no permit.
if you are in Ga and want to see some progress made about native non venomous snakes and other reptile laws. Its about time someone stood up for the Ga herpers rights. He is willing to meet in Atlanta with dnr.

for more info
contact Micheal Parkinson
at fischefather@yahoo.com

thanks,
john

MANY states are outlawing keeping of native herps altogher to keep people from harvesting them for profit (a good thing)

If you can get an education permit for $50 a year...that seems pretty reasonable. I guess it depends if that's per animal...or just a flat $50 fee.

That law is there for a good reason...I don't think DNR is going to change it b/c hobbiests just want to keep them.

Educational use seems reasonable to me.

Dean
That also includes any morphs including corn snakes. Yes even the an albino striped motlet snow corn. Now how is that protecting native wildlife? Besides GA corns aren't all that. How do you feel about having to pay $50 to keep one albnino corn and then have to prove you did hours of educational lectures every year? Kinda stupid IMO.

Besides GA corns aren't all that.

Oh how I will make you eat those words in a week or two....

And IMO it isn't reasonable for someone to have to prove educational reasons for keeping animals that would be entirely legal to keep in ANY of the surrounding states (of course excluding threatened/protected species) a permit system is fine, a permit fee is fine. But one shouldn't be forced to "educate" others, qualifications for keeping a cornsnake and educating others about them are not the same, there are plenty of people out there who can sucessfully keep, breed, and enjoy native GA non venomous snakes yet have no business trying to educate others about same. And as any brief look at the classifieds will clearly show, this law is in no way protecting anything here in GA. Want some GA bloodline Easterns, Mole Kings, Eastern Milks?? {Of course not ALL getula descended from GA animals are progeny from illegally taken animals, but I would bet the WC GA animals that I have seen recently for sale would constitute questionable} They don't enforce the law out in the field where commercial collection occurs. They would rather take the easy route and raid collectors homes. Lucky thing is, the "wildlife biologists" that accompany the Law Enforcement couldn't tell you the difference between a grey rat and a glossy.

Horridus

I would like to know what wild Georgia animals you saw for sale ? Ive never seen any . I scan all the classifieds and Ive never seen any wild GA animals offered for sale.

Keith
-----

Besides GA corns aren't all that.

Oh how I will make you eat those words in a week or two..

NOW those are some strong words coming from someone who wants to stop, look, take snapshots and get histerical over every DOR trash snake out west. Yipeeeee!

Are you implying that you have been handed down the hierarchy of the reptile world by God? Or are you implying that you ARE God?

I am just trying to help the unhappy GA herpers thats all. The hardest thing is getting people to support the law change. And its not just snakes that are effected. DNR is so half a$$. I don't see why they didn't rewrite the laws years ago. Don't they see if that if they regulated native non venomous snakes like some states do such as Florida. It would indeed create more jobs for the dnr. Cuz more people would be needed to identify the snakes and other reptiles. Thus creating more jobs.

john

Rainer,

Will you be at the dixe reptile show? i may there filming for a reptile documentary if I can get some help with it. I refuse to be bullied by dnr. I do not own any native non venomous snakes. If we give up we they win. I am trying to get a reptile documentary recorded and I know of someone who can get it aired.

john

I know it might be a long wait but when they have the Atlanta reptile show this year you might want to film all the native herps on dealers tables. That outta shake things up.LOL!

Seriously. For reasons unmentionable.. filming at the Alabama Dixie show may fuel the fire in support of the existing GA herp laws.

That abnormal morphs should should be excluded.

We have that problem in Ohio with Albino black rats etc.
Trouble is going to be finding people to identify and enforce.

It always comes down to manpower and it's much easier to say "if it looks at all like it, than it's illegal"

Not saying it's right, but that's the wall we are running into.

No one in the gov't groups feels comfortable ID'ing snakes when it comes down to it.

I have many years of biology in school and barely made a living doing it.I have voluteered to ID animals for court cases only to find that jobs for "biologists"are being taken up by veterans or law enforcement types that dont know a snake from a turtle! THEN they want me to teach a class on IDing animals!! F...them!!Everyone I went to school with that works in the DNR HATES their job and it trickles down to everyone else.My feeling is if you are doing what is RIGHT,and you can defend it,DNR rules hardly apply.Just dont go telling the neighborhood or selling wc animals.I think it perfectly OK for someone to keep and breed local animals(selling only cb babies) as long as they dont sell them in state.Its that simple temptation to bring others into it that hurts populations,not individual breeders.Jeff

I wouldn't mind paying a permit fee to keep a native snake but having to 'educate' others is ridiculous and just plain stupid.

They pass the law to protect the animals from overcollection.
I think that's great. I know of people (let's call them "dirtbags" to be nice) who have collected HUNDREDS of scarlet kings from one region in GA in the past. They sell them at swap meets for $100 a peice. With this kind of motivation, these dirtbags can do serious damage.

So...the DNR folks think about exemptions to the law. and they think, "what's a good reason to have these animals"?

-- just for a pet? don't think so.
--education of Georgia citizens and youth about these animals?
"ok".

Sorry that makes sense to me. There's nothing "stupid" about it.
Again, I agree that albinos and other recessive morphs should be exempt.

The only reason I have a problem with not keeping natives in my home state is I can't educate kids with them anymore.

I think you guys should lobby to get albinos and forget about trying for anything else. You are not going to get it.

I still think the 'education' requirement is stupid. There are many of us that just want to have one for a pet without having to go around showing it off.

I think a better idea would be to require a permit and to limit the number of native snakes you are allowed to have.

and there are a hundred others who just want to collect to sell

That's why I think a limit should be put on the number you are allowed to keep.

I agree with Keith their should be a fishing/hunting collection license and an amount of snakes that can be taken in a day and a year. If we give up the Dnr wins and that gos for everyone who keeps reptiles. Its not just the snakes that are affected.

just my 2 cents,
john

Dean

Come on not all people go out and ravage the land. Yes some people over collect but thats the least of the problem its developers who do the most harm by eliminating habitat. Most people want to be able to keep a couple of corns or a King and cant. From what I understand Georgia doesnt have a problem with folks killing and keeping venomous snakes but harmless ones are off limits. I bet if Ohio adopted Florida's policy on Indigo's you would be upset eh ? For you to say folks in Georgia cant enjoy the freedoms that you enjoy in Ohio is a bit hypocritcal I think.

Keith

>>They pass the law to protect the animals from overcollection.
>>I think that's great. I know of people (let's call them "dirtbags" to be nice) who have collected HUNDREDS of scarlet kings from one region in GA in the past. They sell them at swap meets for $100 a peice. With this kind of motivation, these dirtbags can do serious damage.
>>
>>So...the DNR folks think about exemptions to the law. and they think, "what's a good reason to have these animals"?
>>
>>-- just for a pet? don't think so.
>>--education of Georgia citizens and youth about these animals?
>> "ok".
>>
>>Sorry that makes sense to me. There's nothing "stupid" about it.
>>Again, I agree that albinos and other recessive morphs should be exempt.
>>
>>The only reason I have a problem with not keeping natives in my home state is I can't educate kids with them anymore.
>>
>>I think you guys should lobby to get albinos and forget about trying for anything else. You are not going to get it.

-----

Keith:

First of all, indigos are not native to Ohio (I wish they were ) So, there would be no reason to adopt Florida's law here. It's not a fair comparison. I like timber rattlesnakes and would like to keep them, but I respect the law. I could get a permit if I really put my mind to it, and that's how it should be.

The point of the law is to keep people from harvesting wild herps for profit in their home state and I respect that.

No way do I think it should be legal for just anyone to keep indigos in Florida, and no way would I support such legislation.

Now, if they had a permit system that required education, and PROOF OF PURCHASE for EACH snake from a breeder, then I'd support
it.

Yes, it's a hassle, but at some point we have to step up and protect these animals.

And...I'm not a hypocrite and I resent that remark. I've been consistent on my views. If I lived in Florida, I'd either get the permits for educational, or I'd give up my indigos and work with another species.

If it were totally legal to keep indigos in Florida with no proof of where they came from, that species would be GONE in a matter of years. People would rape the hell out of the remaining populations.

When people can make money from doing something, they do it. Period.

Dean you enjoy being able to keep just about any snake you want yet you are saying people in Georgia cant because of some assinine legislation. Eastern Kings arent rare nor are any other snake down there(except Indigo's). I dont know this as fact but from the sheer amount of Georgia Eastern King pics I get for my site I can guess Easterns are abundant. SC doesnt have any laws protecting Easterns and they seem to be doing quite well there. Just because legislation is on the books doesnt mean its right or its there for the right reasons. Here in Wisconsin you cant have more than 2 of any native species or collect more than 2 yet Biological supply houses can collect all they want. I have a problem with someone telling folks that live in a place that they should sit back and not try and at least to change some regs. I will point out I dont want some yahoo snaggin 20-30 snakes a day either but there has to be some remedy to the problem.

Keith

p.s. I know Indigo's dont range into Ohio I was just making an analogy.
-----

Keith I agree. Did you get my pics I emailed you the other day it was titled diversity in eastern king habitat. I could understand if the animals was endangered but to me its UnAmerican not to be able to have native non venomous in the state of GA. The dnr regulates the freshwater turltes, bull frogs and salamanders. but not native hots. I dont see why we cant even have native non venomous here if even if its origin is captive bred. DNR is so half @$$. If all else fails lol I plan on relocating anyways but I thought its worth a shot to help the other unhappy herpers here.

for more info contact Micheal Parkison at fischefather@yahoo.com

thanks,
john

Dean

Some would argue that people should not keep Indigo's at all as it creates a monetary desire for them. When Indigo's cost 400-1000 bucks I would think it would motivate some unscrupulous people to collect wild animals and sell them at half that price. My point is that banning the sale of Indigo's wont stop this nor will banning people from keeping native herps in GA stop them from keeping them or even killing them for fun. Snakes and other herps are not in trouble in GA so I just dont see your reasoning in supporting the current regs as you pointed out that something has to protect wild populations from getting raped by collectors.

Keith
-----

I think the law is mostly unhelpful and ineffective. It's very hard to police something like that to make a difference. The state doesn't care about the snakes or native wildlife all that much. They care about the money. That's why it's ok to build subdivisions and sprawl out over remaining habitat. They make money off that also. So they make money in two ways and look like the good guy at the same time.

Sorry I don't mean to be negative. But I think responsible people should be allowed to keep native non-venomous snakes. If the states cared, they could police by looking in the Classifieds on this site with all the wild caught snakes being sold!

Good luck Georgia,

Chris

John,
I agree with you. That law should be ammended. The problem is, as Dean points out below, with identifying snakes and their origin and, thus, legality. I think if you go into this in a combative, confrontational mode, you will lose. If you want to get something, you have to be willing to give something.

Maybe an approach like, "We will provide identification guides for Law Enforcement personnel to use as well as help with identification where needed. We will also provide help in creating the verbage used in the ammendment so as to continue to protect the native snakes while fulfilling our requirements." would be met with a little more cooperation. It would not be difficult to produce a guide that would show the common morphs produced in captivity as compared to native wild animals.

kkk

np