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Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

Wanting more information about meaning of Circulus

dancetoday Mar 04, 2004 01:11 PM

I read in a post below about the word Circulus by Brian in relation to the Prehensile tailed skinks to mean a reptilian social group. This is the first time I've heard this word and I'd like to know more about it. Would someone either write more about it here or tell me where I could find more information about it. I have a trio of Solomon Island PT Skinks. I knew they were social skinks to some extent although some of what I had read had made it sound like I might or might not be successful keeping a group together. They are doing fine with eating and are also shy but not at all a problem with biting. I don't handle them more than necessary, as I have them for breeding, yet they are gradually getting used to me and now are coming up to the screened side of the cage to get misted when they see me.

I've kept thinking one of the females was gravid because she is so fat but nothing changes, she just stays the same. Fat but no fattter. So maybe she is just fat and it's just her.

-Lucy
SmallDragons

-----
Lucy
www.smalldragons.com

Replies (25)

jess b Mar 04, 2004 11:30 PM

Can't really help you with more meaning- I have seen it written here by Brian referring to corucia groups.

I can give you some info on gravid PTS though-
the gestation is around 8 months or so. My gravid PTSs shows a fairly consistent but slow weight gain over the months until birth. They have behavior changes as well (eating changes, defecating changes, heat seeking ect). If you really want to know whether there is food, feces, fat or fetus causing her to look so plump have her ultrasounded.
I will find my prior post about Gertie and her twins and repost that for you- it has weights, behaviors, and what could be seen with imaging (x-ray/ultrasound)
The photo is a PTS carrying a singleton a few months prior to birth.
Cheers, jess b

jess b Mar 04, 2004 11:38 PM

Here is a clip from the forum archives- it is all of the info I recorded with Gertie's first pregnancy with twins. Ultrasound
can see signs, almost from the first month. X-rays will show you baby(ies) about 2 months before birth. U/S means ultrasound. Rads mean x-ray picture. Picture is Gertie and her twins- about 3 months old.
**SNIP**
Hi! I can relate to you my experience with my female PTS Gertie that I tracked through a pregnacy with twins--

Purchased in 12/00 530gm
Noticably fatter 5/01
Ultrasound 5/30/01: 1 round homogenous structure 2-3cm in diameter in sitting in caudal abdomen. Rads: Soft tissue dense round structure in caudal adbomen/coelom. At the time I did not know whether I was looking at a tumor, cyst, or yolk. I was hoping for yolk! If yolk, she could have been ovulating or in an early gravid state.
7/6/01 U/S: Two round structures, about the same size. Now I think I am looking at yolks. Gertie is ravenous and active.
8/3/01 U/S: Two round structures, same size, surrounded by fluid, within a walled structure. On the bottom on one I can see
a focal area of increased density (probably embroyo) Gertie is ravenous and active.
9/12/01 U/S: Two similar round soft tissue structures within fluid- one sitting more cranial than the other. One has an associated struture about 1-2cm long which looks like a spine. We decide that she is definetly gravid. Gertie looks like a whale. ~700gm.
10/5/01 U/S: Can see babies moving on U/S. Can see a beating heart that is not Gerties! Can see blood flow in the heart.
Rads: 2 faint calcified heads. Can't see spines or legs. One is head toward Gertie's cloaca, one is 'breach'. ~750gm. Gertie is heat seeking, not eating well, and her respiration rate is
elevated. I am worried about her.
11/21/01 Rads: Two calcified skeletons, both facing head toward Gertie's cloaca. Gertie is not eating well, poops are tiny,
spends most of her time in warm spot. 820gm. Her abdomen is lumpy and her skin is stretched. She must be uncomfortable. She is increasingly aggressive with the male and lunges at me when I removed food/water bowls.
12/29/01 Two healthy twins born during the night. 88 and 86gm apiece. Gertie is very aggressive and remains in the birth
area for several days.

From my limited experience with this one PTS- I can say that for Gertie- from when I first detected ovulation or early gravid
state, it took 7 full months for her to give birth.

The things I saw in her from the outside as the pregnancy progressed were obvious girth increase, weight gain, increased then decreased appetite (no room for food in stomach and GI tract?), heat seeking, and increased aggression. I did not see her soaking in her water bowl,as I have read/heard that
they can do shortly before giving birth.

On the inside 2 months before birth, I could see partially calcified skeletons on x-ray and beating hearts and wiggling bodies on ultrasound, 1 month before I could see fully calcified skeletons (x-ray), 3 months before I could see a small spine, 7 months before I could see a yolk or follicle (ultrasound).
I got the sense that there is a large period of time when the embroyo is very small, and during the last 3 months it grows
very quickly.

dancetoday Mar 05, 2004 12:07 AM

This was very interesting, thanks. Do you know how long the babies usually stay with the mother? do people keep them all together indefinitley?
-----
Lucy
www.smalldragons.com

JeanP. Mar 05, 2004 09:14 AM

Hi Again Lucy,

They've been known to stay with the Circulus for several years. From observations, It seems to benefit the youngster to remain with the parents for at least two years. They seem to reach maximum size in about 4-5 years.

Best Regards,
Jean

dancetoday Mar 05, 2004 10:22 AM

Jean,

Where can I read more about these guys? I'm getting more and more fascinated with them! I wish I'd gotten some years ago when I had a chance (a local herpetologist sold his collection, quite a few as I remember. I didn't have the space at the time. Now I don't have the money for more than my three until I sell some more of my other lizards! I always thought it was interesting how they keep the baby with them. I have been interested in Sungazers for that same reason, but they are out of my price range.

Lucy
SmallDragons

-----
Lucy
www.smalldragons.com

jess b Mar 05, 2004 11:46 AM

Sadly, there is not much published literature out there-
the two (small) books I have are
1# General Care and Maintenance of Prehensile Tailed Skinks by Vosjoli (Herpetocultural Library)
2# Prehensile Tailed Skinks by Coborn

Coborn's book has nice color photos. Vosjoli's book I think is a little better written. They are both small books with very basic info.

If you do a general web search on this species- type in Prehensile Tailed Skink as well as Solomon Island Skink and Monkey Tailed Skink. You will find multiple care sheets as well as links to some zoos that maintain this species.

cheers, Jess b

dancetoday Mar 05, 2004 11:21 PM

Well, I was doing the search typing corucia zebrata and finding almost nothing. So I guess I should stop and use the common names!
-----
Lucy
www.smalldragons.com

zeteki Mar 05, 2004 08:46 PM

I've been searching out published articles. Here's a partial list of what I've found:

Harmon, LJ. 2002. Some observations of the natural history of the prehensile tailed skink in the Solomon Islands. Herpetological Review 33(3): 177-179.

Devare, A. 2000. Some observations on behavior, breeding and care of captive PTS, Part 1. Herptile 25(4) 149-156.
Parts 2 and 3 are in Herptile 2001; 26(1) 8-18 and 26(2) 59-63.

Devare, A. 1999. History and behavior of captive PTS, part 4. Reptilia 7: 62-65.
Part 5 is 8: 53-57.

Cooper, WE. 2000. Food chemical descriminations by an herbivorous lizard, C. zebrata. Journal of Experimental Zoology. 286(4) 372-378.

Balsai, MJ. 1995. Husbandry and breeding of the S.I. PTS. Vivarium 7(1): 4-7, 9-11.

There are many more, but that should get you started.

-Z

Brian-SFCRC Mar 05, 2004 11:03 PM

LEEWAY CORUCIA RESEARCH CENTER (LCRC)

Martin Balsai also put out a book within the past year or so on different speciation with the Genus Corucia. His theory of Genetic drift towards new speciation is based on stillborn Corucia. He believe pairing of different Phenotypes leads to incompatibilty and reproductive failure. Personally, I don't see the incompatibility with the different Phenotypes as he described and as Social as Corucia are, if they were the slightest bit different, there would be little chance of acceptance between potential mates.

Brian
LCRC

dancetoday Mar 05, 2004 11:26 PM

How did you find these?
-----
Lucy
www.smalldragons.com

zeteki Mar 06, 2004 11:33 AM

I used my universities search engine to search Biological Abstracts and Zoological Review databases.

And last night after I posted that list I went to herplit.com and did a search for Corucia and turned up many more.

Now the trick is to find the journals.

-Z

jess b Mar 05, 2004 11:08 AM

I have read that they reach sexual maturity around 3-4 years. From watching our neonates grow- this seems to be about right! Gertie's first twins are at this point- they are as large (or larger) than Dad- and are acting like they need to be moved out. The one I think is male is trying to get out (is he trying to move out and away from family?) and the one I think is female is starting to be sniffed by Dad more than I would like. My limited preference is to leave the babies with the family as long as is feasible for space and compatibility. If we move out the first twins, there are still 3 other juvies in there with the adult pair- so I don't feel bad about shrinking the group too much.
Cheers, Jess b

zeteki Mar 05, 2004 12:30 AM

np

JeanP. Mar 05, 2004 08:58 AM

Excellent Work Jess,

You are to be commended. Thanks for sharing this!

Best regards,
Jean

jess b Mar 05, 2004 11:12 AM

That was back when I had more time
Hope it helps someone!
Cheers, Jess b

riiotgrrl Mar 06, 2004 12:42 PM

O my god the babies are beautiful!

dancetoday Mar 05, 2004 12:01 AM

Yes, mine looks just like that, bulging out the sides. My other female and my male are much less fat. The thing that made me wonder is that she has been like this for quite a while and it doesn't seem like it has changed lately. She is more withdrawn than the other two lately. The other two have actually gotten a bit friendly (they have been with me about six months and were fairly new imports when i got them). They come up to the side of the cage when I mist to drink the water and the other little female crawled out onto my arm today and didn't want to go back. But the possibly gravid female just sat in one spot and didn't participate.Thanks.

Lucy
-----
Lucy
www.smalldragons.com

zeteki Mar 05, 2004 12:28 AM

Hi Jean.

I've been meaning to ask - is there a reason you choose ultrasound over xrays?

Is there a substantial difference in cost, time at which gravidity can be established by either method, or is it something else?

-Z

JeanP. Mar 05, 2004 09:17 AM

Hi Z,

I think you meant Jess not Jean.

Of course Jess is the one to answer. I would assume it is because it is potentially safer.

Best Regards,
Jean

zeteki Mar 05, 2004 09:51 AM

np

jess b Mar 05, 2004 11:37 AM

When looking for babies- ultrasound early on is the way to go. X-ray is only useful once fetal skeletons are calcified. In Gertie's case this was late in her gestation (last 2 months)- I already knew she was gravid- I wanted to confirm twins as well as determine whether X-ray were even useful. In dogs and cats we x-ray in the last 2 weeks once fetal skeletons are calcified- to count the babies and check their size. Seems about right for Gertie's babies to be x-ray visible in the last 1/4, as dog and cat gestation is about 2 months and the pups/kits are visible in the last 1/4.
Ultrasound could see yolk sacs even in the first month- this wouldn't confirm a gravid state, but only that she was reproductively active. I have x-rays of Gertie in her first months- one can't tell a yolk and uncalcified fetus from a tumor, cyst or abscess.... it just shows up as a coelomic soft tissue dense area that displaced the GI tract.
I would probably always pick an ultrasound over an x-ray if given the option- unless you knew she was very close to delivery and wanted to count.
Ultrasound can probably tell you the number of feti (in something like a PTS where you have a choice of one or two- wouldn't work in a BTS- too many!), whether they are alive or not, and give you some sense of size and how far along they are.
Safety of the ultrasound vs x-ray doesn't play much of a role in my mind- as long as the animal is not too stressed by handling and you don't do either excessively.
I subjected Gertie to both on a regular basis through her first gestation with me- not the best thing to do for her or her feti- but at the begining we didn't know whether she actually was gravid (or had an tumor/abscess), and the excellent exotics clinicians who were seeing her said the info wasn't available on what the ultrasound/x-ray images would look like in this species- so we tracked her because we could...
Cheers, Jess b

JeanP. Mar 05, 2004 09:07 AM

Hi Lucy,

There is (or was) a Gharial Research center in India I believe used the Term Circulus. Gharials have complex social interactions. On George page's Nature: Care by both parents were explored as well as a subadult female youngster of a egg-laying female who stood by and watched. It was uncertain whether she was there to provide back-up assistance and guard or was drawn to the site on nesting instinct to learn more of the reproductive process. Based on the crocodilian social structures, the term may have originated there.

Hope this helps,

Jean

dancetoday Mar 05, 2004 10:27 AM

I wasn't clear from the above post whether George Page is a person and he has a book called Nature or George has a page like a page on the web and it's called Nature? Is this book or page something that would be relevant to coruccia or just where the term circulus came from? Thanks.
-----
Lucy
www.smalldragons.com

JeanP. Mar 05, 2004 05:36 PM

Lucy,

For years and years there has been an environmental program on PBS called Nature. George Page is the Narrator and I believe the producer. It is possible old George has written books. On that, I can't answer. By you not ever having seen Nature, you have indeed missed out.
Best Regards,
Jean

dancetoday Mar 05, 2004 11:32 PM

I've probably watched that over at my parents' house. But having young children I made the decision to not have network television and to just have videos to be able to control what they watch. I don't like what the mass culture pumps into our kids. Now that the youngest is six and TVs can be programmed to let them watch just certain shows, and we have a new high definition TV, I guess I'm going to have to break down and not only get regular TV but get cable!!! I love nature shows and that's one of the first things we'll be watching, I'm sure.
-----
Lucy
www.smalldragons.com

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