Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been around the herp game for over 10 years and have seen a lot of changes. The biggest to me is the emergence of the "basement breeders" as I call them. They're everywhere. I've also noticed a sharp decline in the number of herp shops all over really. The number of shops that specialized in herps was never as high as those for fish, etc. I'm just wondering in this age of captive breeding is there any room for the herp shop? Anyone can see the advantages of running things from your own property but is the herp store an endangered or soon to be extinct species? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I think people who breed their own herps generally take much better care of their animals than pet shops. They will take the time to learn what their animals need and focus on one type of animal. Pet shops which do all kinds of animals sometimes aren't as good with any specific animal. whereas someone concentrating on one type such as snakes or lizards can learn more about their animals. The key is learning about your animal's needs before buying it.

Reptiles are animals, not stock to be put on a shelf, not a product to increase your bank account with. While I dont have a problem with the selling and breeding of herps in general, I think there is something seriously wrong with this business when people use it to cash in on the latest fad, minimizing "overhead" by giving their animals sub-optimal care. This pertains not just to pet stores, but to the large reptile wholesalers and breeders who have no real regard for their animals and are only in it to make a living. I would far rather give my money to a basement breeder who truly cares about their herps and is less concerned with cashing in.

--Lisa

I find pet shops discusting. The animals are
rarely taken care of propperly and the staff is often moronic.
If it were up to me shops would only be allowed to sell products
and feeder animals.

People on other forums will adimately dissagree with me. I don't
know if they just have lower standards or if there really are
good pet shops in other parts of the country. (I am in New
England.) I never buy animals from shops. They are over-priced
and in terrible shape.

I notable exception I have found is JL Reptile Breeders in
East Providence, RI. It is a small shop with a pleasant
and knowledgable staff. The place is clean and does not smell.
The animals look good and are fairly priced. I highly
recomend them. I sell JL my animals at a reduced price
because I want to support a good shop. I fear for them. It
seems the good ones go out of business.

Just my opinions,

Brian

I just wanted to add to this. 2001: A Fish Odessy is a pet store in Timonium, MD, on Padonia Road, that sells both fish and reptiles, and they do a great job. Only pet store I'll recommned that sells animals. They won't sell you anything you don't need, and they won't sell an animal unless you have everything you need. They don't sell iguanas, large boids, turtles, or any of the more commonly "rescued" reptiles.

I wish more stores would learn from this example. The enclosures in the store remind me more of a good zoo enclosure than a pet store.

Katrina

I agree that most pet stores do not know how to care for reptiles esp. the larger ones like Pet Co. I know of one pet store that was selling baby ball pythons that were not eating,
my thought was why do you wanna sale something thats not eating and healthy. Pet Co uses heat rocks on there geckos and snakes.
Knowing very well that the animals get burned. I belive that private breeding is the only way to go these days.

"I sell JL my animals at a reduced price
because I want to support a good shop. I fear for them. It
seems the good ones go out of business. "

Brian,

there are a few reasons that it seems that the good shops go out of business.

1 .It costs more money to run a good shop than a bad shop (get good animals, hire knowledgable staff, clean cages regularily etc)

2. higher expenses mean neccesarily higher prices.

3. 90% of the people shop for cheap prices

therefore, if you are a good shop, but need to charge higher prices to cover your costs, people will shop elsewhere.

I believe you said earlier in your post that I quoted something about fair prices (if it wasn't you I am sorry but it still fits) Whenever people say that I ask them what they think is fair. The response is always the same "I don't know but they charge way too much) Most people have no idea what it costs to run a business. Typical markups on dry goods is about double, less on more expensive items like tanks, lighting, filtration etc. Livestock markup is generally 2.5 to 3 times but I've seen it as high as 5 or 6 times depending on what the local market will support. Things I pay a buck for (talking fish here) and sell for 3.00 I've seen shops in other areas selling for 6.00 or 7.00 (and getting it) and the day before, they were scooping them out of the same tank as I was. I'm not complaining, just stating a fact of location.

The typical reason given for the 3 times markup is that you have to cover the initial cost of the animal, you have to feed and maintain the animal until it sells, you have to cover for losses, and you NEED to make a profit. By buying better stock (CBB perhaps) stores can reduce losses and but those animals generally cost more to begin with and they still need to be maintained so if the animals are retailed for the same price as the lower quality ones the shop owner has even less margin. If they are sold at a higher price (better quality demands higher price right) most people will shop somewhere that the price is lower.

I hope you don't take offense to this next part. Again I am only trying to illustrate a point. You say you sell your stuff to the pet shop for a lower price. Thats great, I am not going to ask you what kind of break you are giving them, but I will ask you this. Do you also sell your animals in the area (swaps, shows, classifieds etc.) If so you are in direct competition with them. Do you give them enough of a break so that they can compete with you on price and still make a decent profit. If not, you may not be helping them all that much. I have people offering me 2 week old baby beardeds for 30, 40 even 50 bucks each in 10 lots then they try to sell the same ones for 10 bucks more at shows and in classified ads. I can't make a living on 10 bucks profit on a 30 dollar investment espescially when I have to maintain 10 of the little buggers for another 6 weeks before I even offer them for sale. They think they are doing me a favor by giving me a "price break" then they are offended whern I offer them $20.00 each

You bring up some excellent points and I agree with what you said. I am only using your post to bring up my points because it helped to illustrated the problem so well.

Bottom line. If there is a good shop in your area, support them. Support them financially as well as through helping them push the benefits that they provide. If you don't, don't bemoan the fact when they close their doors.

Steve Schindler
Tropical Oasis

That's an excellent point--and breeders should also do the math. You can hang on to your own stock and sell it off yourself over time, but if you sell a lot to a pet store, even at a greatly reduced price, you are saved the cost of upkeeping those animals yourself. If this is a store you feel good about selling to, everyone wins. You don't have the cost and time of maintaining animals while you wait for them to sell direct.

This can save you the loss in profit you took by selling them for less money to the store. Ask the store what they will be selling your animals for, as well as what they will offer for them. 50 to 60% markup is perfectly reasonable. Keep in mind that they are also shouldering the cost of upkeeping the animals while they wait for them to sell.

Pet shops also need to be aware that breeders need to upkeep and care for all of their animals, breeders and offspring alike. They don't have the costs of running a storefront, but they do have other business costs, and the breeders need to make a profit as well. Imports are cheap for a reason. To some customers, that's all that matters...but those customers will never keep such an animal alive, because they won't be willing to pay for the necessary veterinary care an import must have. This isn't a person who will come back to buy more products from you. Their initial purchase is it, because their animal will most likely die. Then they'll blame the store that sold it to them.

Take into consideration the cost and difficulty of maintaining breeder animals, and establishing and caring for newborn offspring when you make an offer for CBB animals. If you need to price them beyond what the market will tolerate in order to make a profit, it's better to turn the breeder down and tell them the truth about why, rather than making an offer that would cause them a loss if they accepted it.

Here's another possibility that I haven't seen implemented: consignment. If the animal doesn't sell in X amount of time, it goes back to the breeder. The store pays nothing up front, and both parties profit if it DOES sell. The store is still responsible for upkeeping the animal while it is there on display for sale, but this is a much lesser risk than if they had purchased the animal outright, and it didn't sell. The store could even agree to split the cost of upkeep with the breeder. I personally would love to have a GOOD store offer me this option. Unlike mammals, adult reptiles sell for higher prices than younger ones, so there is no loss to the breeder if their animal doesn't sell while it's in the store. The store's loss is minimal.
I'd personally even be willing to cover upkeep and food costs for the animals entirely, if a store allowed me to place them there for sale. I wouldn't expect to take as much of a loss as if I'd sold them the animal outright, and don't think they should expect as high a markup, but I think it would work well for all parties concerned.

What's your opinion, as a store owner?

OK, I'm seriously POed right now. I just spent 1/2 hour responding to your excellent post and I hit the wrong button and lost everything. (lucky for you guys I guess)

I shorten it up a bit.

I always tell people what I will be selling the animals for if I make an offer on them. Most of the time they will see that the amount I will be charging is significantly lower that what other stores would be charging. I've had people tell me that other stores were offering more but would be selling for a whole lot more (I offer 20 sell for 50 other store offers 25 sells for 80) so they sold to me as a matter of principle even though they made less money (goes along with your comment about finding a store you feel comfortable dealing with) Ive also had people tell me they were offered less and the store would charge more so they sold to me as well. Another thing to remember is that If I wanted to pay the going wholesale rate for something I would probably have it already, so just because some stores are paying X amount doesn't meant that I am willing to pay that much. If I was I probably would have already.

As far as consignmet goes I really don't like it. The question about the split is often a sticky issue, espescially after a long period of time goes by. Another problem comes into play when someone is just shopping around for something and I have several options. I have a few nice corns that in stock and if I sell one I will make a nice profit. I also have this nice cal king that you brought in on consignmet that I am selling for the same amount. If I sell the cal king I will make less money on it. Any of the snakes would make excellent pets, and all fit the customers wants and needs, which one will I try to sell. And yours sits around for another week.

still, it could work espescially for the more rare species that I normally would not carry because they may be too expensive (green trees, emeralds etc)

Yup, thats the short version beleive it or not. You bring up some excellent ideas, it is clear that you can see it from both sides and if you ever do open a shop you would probably be very succesful. Just DON'T go in underfunded expecting to make it up. it will be a disaster.

Steve Schindler

d'oh! Hate it when that happens.

For consignment, yes, there are some risks involved, though the amount of money the store makes on the deal need not necessarily be less than on an animal they bought outright. Another possibility is to keep a list of local breeders who have specific animals, and list them in your store as "able to acquire"--interested people could then tell you when they want one, and you could order the animal from the breeder that way, too. (This is probably old news, but bear with me, I just thought of it..).

Thank you for the tip on going into a store with enough funding. I think it's true of most businesses, that you should never assume you're going to make a profit, particularly in the first year.

Hi I am a pet store owner and I do offer consignments all the time it helps the person who needs to sell the animal and it helps me to have more stock in with out having the expense in buying every animal that a person wants -- it is a win win deal -- I have a store in southern oregon a small store that I own and run my self-- if you are intrested in consigning any animals let me know I have posts here on kingsnake -- thanks

Aquatic Environments & More
Link

Well put.

There ARE better shops in other parts of the country. I've seen areas in which NONE are good, and others which have one or two very good shops. (I've moved around a bit).

Don't tar them all with the same brush. Some of these stores were opened by people just like you. Some were opened by people who like dogs or cats and wanted to make money. Avoid the bad ones, support the good ones, if you're lucky enough to find a good one.

Hey Brian!
I just bought my Beardie from Joe. He has a great shop. I was concerned when he moved from Willett ave because I thought he was closed, but found him again thanks to Rumford pets. (I buy my feeders there). Good to see another Rhode Islander.
Kathy

Frankly, it's my dream to run one. The only obstacle is money.
Setting up any store is expensive.
Maybe one of these days.

( late on this thtread but ) > till you have a retail store of the monies are made and or spent and in consideration of this ornginal post : I had one of the biggest pet stores in the Kansas City area that had a total of 60 somewhat stores and other mass-merchant/ chain pet stores from 1990 untill 1999. We were a full line pet store with me being a reptile breeder of over 35 years. I bred for my own store and also bought from other breeders ( which even though they all knew me, many would not sell to other pet stores ). I also had to buy from various importers to keep up the supply and demand. You may want to look at it this way: if I didn't sell various herps rather captive bred or not, other stores would. Other stores may or may of not given out the knowledgement of care and other factores of the reptiles they were selling . I couldn't lose money because hey, I was in the business. Some of the captives that I had to buy were at times no better then some imports or wild caught animals.

Our reptile department was the most visited area of our 10,000 square foot business. Our reptile sales which included livestock and reptile supplies was up to 1/4 of our total sales. I have not seen a straight reptile store and or reptile stock and supplies store make it unless it was already an establish business or well known. I have never seen a full line reptile store make it unless it was a well thought, sink your money into, somewhat expensive operation.

Some one else on this thread has reported the monies involved on a retail business pertaining to a reptile store and or pet store. I will repeat and or maybe add some to this : our rent was $6,500 per month, our employees numbered at around 9- 12 on the average. We paid well beyond the national average wage. Our utilities averaged around anywhere from $1.400 to over $2,000 per month. We had to pay un-employement benifits on employees, employees tax, property taxes, ceratin permits involving livestock, sales tax ( state and federal ) workmans comp. , of course insurance and in our case on top of insurance a 5 million dollar umbrella policy in case of a accidental death in or around our premises that included our parking lot, and all of this is not even up to buying goods and animals yet. Any profits that this store made after paying all of the above had to be in reserve in case: a hot water heater went out, our air condition went out, emergency problems, some building problems not always covered by insurance, theft and shoplifting including employees, losses that is not related to the above, commonary maintence, and no doubt some that I have not remembered, forgotten.

Now on sales and buying: there is a " wheel " of profit margin. I have tried to explain this before on this forum of several years ago and to many people that know me. I have and have had people trying to tell me that a retail pet store is ridiculously priced on goods. If you are thinking this, go up there on the above and re-read it !

Profits of margin :

If you buy something for $1.00 and sale it for $2.00 you are making a profit of $1.00. Right ! WRONG ! Out of that $1.00 you are trying to pay all of the above. YOU CANNOT PAY FOR ALL OF THE ABOVE WITH THIS KIND OF PROFIT IN A RETAIL STORE ! So in order to pay all of the above with an operation like mine , you ( me ) had to make at least $2.00 profit and if you are lucky try for a $3.00 profit which was hard to do and within the supposedly $1.00-$2.00 or $3.00 profit pay for all and have a very smalll percentage outside of operations cost and overhead cost.

NOW READ MY TYPING:> you can only make that $2.00 to $3.00 profit if the market can bear it and in most places it cannot bear it ! Why ? Due to this original post, and compitetion.

I am not addressing the other issue of a bad retail petstore, etc. on this thread. Because I'm directing to only the $ of operations of a retail pet store and why so many people are not correct on the profit making of such business.

Chambo

I agree with your post, and you hit it on the head, but still, something you said struck a nerve with me.

you said

"You may want to look at it this way: if I didn't sell various herps rather captive bred or not, other stores would."

I agree, and you are right, but just because we are in business and because of it we NEED to make a profit, that is no reason to compromise our principles. Just because other stores sell burms and retics to anyone does not mean that I will, even though I could have probably sold 3 or 4 in the last 2 weeks. If you are not bothered by selling something that is legal to sell, then by all means go ahead and sell it. But don't just sell it because if you don't someone else will and you will lose out on the money. If I ever get to that point I'll throw in the towel.

"Other stores may or may of not given out the knowledgement of care and other factores of the reptiles they were selling."

using the excuse, If I don't sell these animals, someone else will and they might not give the best advice on how to care for it so I had better sell them just to make sure that people won't kill them, is simply an attempt to justify doing something that in your mind you may not think is such a good idea. I offer people advice all the time on animals they can't buy from me because I refuse to sell them.

"I couldn't lose money because hey, I was in the business."

But you don't have to abandon your ideals just because you are in business

"Some of the captives that I had to buy were at times no better then some imports or wild caught animals."

I can't speak to this. I obviously don't work at the same volume that you did. Even so, I realize that offering substandard animals, no matter what the source, is not the way I want to do business.

Please don't take offense to my comments. It is difficult when conversing in this medium to know the exact manner in which the written words were intended. I am not at all saying that you operated with anything more than the utmost care for your animals. I don't have a problem with stores that sell WC animals. Its just that when you make comments like you did it seems like you are trying to justify what you were doing to others. You don't have to. All you have to do is take care of the animals in your charge and operate within the laws. If you do that people are free to have their opinions. Pet stores in general are looked at with negativity by some people, and I do not feel the need to justify my career choice to them.

Steve Schindler

lose site or was talking of : Not so much me and my business but the way some businesses would take this approach and you are right ! We DID refrain from selling igauanas and some other herps in the last 3 years of our 9 year business. But the " guy down the street " pet store that was approx. 1 mile continued selling. It annoyed me all to hell ! And probably the most problem that I had was contradiction on the 2 of our stores of his idea or lack of idea of caging for igaunas that was normally a 10 gallon tank. But there again we have to put the customer at fault here as well on not doing a little more research ( if any at all ).

So remember that I was talking as in general on what some stores see this as: losing money in livestock and supplies ?

Not reaching my goal , losing site, not explaining better, contradicting myself when i don't mean to, might be my age problem more than my thoughts and written word as I get older ?

Chambo ( one of the old guys )

I suspect that your concerns for the animals were in fact one of the reasons you decided to get out of the business. I know how frustrating it can be when it seems that your competitors are only in it for the money and your concerns and suggestions seem to fall on deaf ears. Most people want you tell them what they want to hear. If you refuse to do that they will find someone who will, and your sales will suffer. I am finding that out the hard way.

Steve Schindler

I have just began a reptile business. I am currently selling reptiles from my farm. I am disgusted by the local pet stores and I am trying to offer both healthy and unusual reptiles. I don't crowd my animals, they are fed appropriate food with vitamins and calcium, and they are cleaned as needed even if it is every day (messy tortoises!). I think it is difficult for large stores to do things right and make a good profit. It is also hard to compete with the people at reptile shows who sell sick imports at wholesale prices. SOmeone was selling sich baby ball pythons for $12.50, so of course no one would even look at my healthy, well-fed ones. Sadly I have to buy fish from petsmart because they have the best warrenty (14 days to die!). The Aquarium center in Maryland is one of the few places that shows that you can be large and still keep animals properly.

Well, even the Aquarium Center sells wild-caught tortoises and turtles. I've seen some sad-looking ornate box turtles in there before. I might recommend them for supplies, but I do not recommend them to anyone wanting to buy a reptile. For that I recommend 2001 or a local breeder or rescue.

Where are you located again? Are there any reptile rescues in your area? Once I learned of 2001's captive bred policy, and visited the shop to see how well cared-for the reptiles were, I started recommending them to everyone. One woman drives 45 minutes each way once a month to stock up there, rather than buying from a chain store closer to her. Get a good relationship with the rescues, even if they aren't reptile related, and they'll help you.

As for shows, if I go to one, I'll warn people about the cheap pythons and wild-caught horned toads and tortoises. I work a crowd! I can usually pick out which vendors have the healthy/captive bred animals, and have no shame about sending people to them, even as they're about to make a purchase from a WC vendor. If your animals look good, I'll show my appreciation by sending people your way.

The way things are going, it soon may become very hard indeed to import. Talking about monkey pox and snake-headed fish, and the fact that Congress may not like the idea of imports now.

Katrina