Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Posted by: theLC at Mon Mar 1 11:36:39 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

i was reading the pro exotics faq sheets and i noticed something in there about leaving the lights on 24/7 to keep the heat levels from dropping at nite. i wasn't sure if i was reading this right or not because i thought if i left the lights on all night it would mess my ackie's light cycle up and stress him out. however, he burrows under his log every night so i don't know if he knows whether the lights are on or not. i've tried the red lights and the ceramic bulbs but they don't heat up enough in my opinion. so is ok to leave the lights on all nite?
second question, can they eat eggs? if so can they be raw or do they need to be cooked.

Almost all the major ackie breeders run 24/7 lighting....give a good hide box and he will self regulate....eggs make there poo runny and smelly LOL go for it just its a pain in the @#$% to clean up i dont know if its really that beneficial to them. you want poultry in its diet try ground turkey w a good calcium/minerall supplement. just my $.o2

Light cycling really doesn't seem to pertain to monitor's overall health. I leave some lights on, some I have on timers. It is kind of neat to leave the timers on, I know what to expect. My dwarf monitors are on timers and they go in their hides at 11 pm and don't come out until after about an hour after the lights come on at 8 am. they usually like to eat at that time as well. My monitors that are not on light cycles seem to do it themselves.

a funny thing about ackies and this seems to especially be true of them is that they like really tight spaces to hide in. in my red ackie cage there is supports that stick out in the cage about an inch or so. the two females are often wedged in there and it is a bi%$ch to get them out. I cut my finger on a females tail (they are like serraded or however you spell that..knives) when I was taking her out to soak and clean her cage. The male hides in a little ceramic decoration deal with holes in it and mostly comes out to eat, bask and drink.

eggs: you can feed whatever you want to your monitor, but crickets and chopped fuzzies (pinks ok if dusted) are great.

good luck, andrew

Its the easiest, most consistant way and best way to heat the cage, you are not trying to force the animal to adjust its life to you and your schedule (they can bask when they want to), etc. Offer dirt deep enough to dig and see what happens, your ackie will spend half of his life or more as they are supposed to do underground, therefore no harm to its sleep schedule. Theres no harm to their day/night cycle from light, its the ability to escape heat by hiding from it, try sleeping after drinking 3 pots of coffee, they are active in the heat. Besides being underground helps to conserve moisture for a monitor.

so if you have a deep substate you can leave the lights on all the time??????i just measued and i have a good 13" of sub on one side slopping down to about 8" my savs always playin around in the sub

Are close to the ground to allow moisture conservation. The main purpose is to allow them to avoid the heat or use it when they want to. The light doesnt even bother them, its the constant heat acting like a pot of coffee. One of mine unfortunately doesnt have enough room for deep substrate (my male albig), but he has a large cork bark log and a few inches of dirt and a great temp gradient.

np

that if a monitor is always up when the lights are on, there is probably something wrong.

They are very active for several hours then gone, whether the light is on or not. By leaving the light on, it is their choice when to come out, they always have the option to use the hot spot.

--Robert

but, what "mid-night hot spots" do they have in the wild?

also, why would they need them at that time?

these are questions i have asked and am expirementing with rather than just taking them from the "source"

andrew

who cares what they have in the wild, you should care more about what happens in the cages. Unless of course your speaking of wild monitors. But captivity in your house well thats not wild.

The snakes around here have the heat off the road to use as a night time basking area. Most lizards seek out a burrow, or some other refuge at night. Except the gecko's, but they are only out at night.

So how does a wild house gecko bask?? he is not out in the daytime doing this. Or is he???

Glad your researching on your own, always a good thing. I have said it many times what works for one may not work for another, what works here may not there.

24/7 light is for the keepers benefit. 24/7 heat is for the monitors benefit.
If the heat source is a light, all the keeper has to do is poke their head into the monitor room to see all the cages are heated. If a bulb is out, the heat source has burned out.
I have never had a monitor not go into a burrow or under a hide when it sleeps even if the lights are off.

well, there is nothing i disagree here with i guess.

i don't know about wild geckos and basking unless they are getting there heat source by being undercover in radiant places like in black pipes, under thin pieces of bark, next to heating elements, etc. just an idea.

about the wild: it is true, we must do what makes sense here. like from where you and i live. if i had a rudi, i would not be able to put him on my porch, the humidity here would be fine as our humidity levels are really not all that far off, but the heat would not be fine, our temps are way different. so, we must do different things for different climates. but what is similar is that we try to mimic what is done in the wild such as humid but dry burrows, basking temps, climbing abilities, enough food, water, etc.

my ackies, pils and kims are under a 15 hour on, 9 hour off light cycle but the ambients do not drop all that much because heat escapes the cages anyhow probably because of what they are. one is a trough with a plexi top (glaeurts), one is a melamine with a plexi front (ackies) one is a very large aquarium, 4x2x2 (pils)all allow heat to escape but the room is heated evenly all day and ambients are about 80, so the coolest parts of the cages are in the burrows and those seem to be about 78, that is the lowest they go and the upper parts of the cage (baskings) are about 80 at around 4 in the morning (mid-night pee walks, haha).

anyhow to make a long story short, they are not suffering from not having light at night. perhaps if i get pil babies and hold a few back i will keep them 24/7 and see if there are differences in behavior and health.

the nile i had listed i think i have decided to keep (he is a lot of fun and reminds me of why i first got monitors) is on 24/7 and he does what everybody else says, he digs a burrow, same with the argus and goulds cross but they dig constantly anyhow, its their past time i think

andrew

I didn't think I said they were better off with 24/7 lights or heat. I said it gives them more options, which I believe is undeniable fact.

Lights and Heat are tools, it is up to keepers to apply them appropriately.

--Robert

they aren't severely limited in their movements, with other monitors locked into the same space. No matter what I do with lights or heat, it still isn't going to be remotely close to nature.

--Robert

okay, so what if my monitors were in really big cages?

you know, like frank's outdoor lacie cage for george and gracie?

or what if my pilbaras for instance were already in something similar, a 4x2x2?

or my ackies (7.5 x 2.5 x 2.5)? ackies are probably not completely accurate, but it would be like putting 4 foot peachies in a 32 foot cage.

but my argus and goulds cross are very confined or will be soon in their 8 foot cage. it would be like keeping my pils in a 30 by 15 inch cage. doable, yes? maybe i am just ahead of myself by giving them deep substrate and 24/7 lights (goulds x flavi and argus)?

so, if they are not very confined in the cages i provide and have "getting away" spots. what about then?

again, only questions, this whole subject is theory right now anyway right?

andrew

Um, I'm not sure what you mean with the 7.5x2.5x2.5 ackie cage, but I assure you that it is not like a peachie in a 32' cage, at least any of my peachies. They are always confined.

24/7 heat can be useful. If you don't want to use it don't.

--Robert

the larger monitors i still have are on 24/7 cycle.

my snakes are not. i had a pair of coastal carpets two years ago that were on 24/7. she laid 22 infertiles, my friend who breeds carpets swears up and down it was the light cycles, i still don't know. but you have to try it to know.

andrew

If you use 24/7 heat and/or lights yet think there are problems, why are you doing it? It may be just me, but if I didn't think I was doing the right thing, I would change it.

If you don't think there are problems, than what the heck is your point? To inspire people to think? hahahahahahahahaha

--Robert

I actually do try these things, that is what I've been doing the past two years.

--Robert

i said, i was experimenting at the moment to see which is better, rather from taking it from the "source"

andrew

But I fail to see your point, you should have been trying things from the beginning. In the end, keeping monitors is an endless cycle of trying things, isn't it?

If you would learn to read, my response was directly related to why would you want to keep your ackie awake all night. Which it doesn't, I have seen that, my ackies aren't up for more than serveral hours. I also have two peachies together with 24/7 light/heat and they run alternate cycles so they don't have to deal with each other, so an individual isn't up all night, yet the lights/heat are used day and night. I also have peachies on day/night schedules, gouldii complex (two pairs) are all on 24/7. In summer it all gets switched around.

My posts were based on what I've experienced.

--Robert

substrates, lighting, heat levels (like bringing the baskings down on my glaeurts to 110),

constantly trying and learning new things,

i agree this is what we should do.

andrew

Did you allow them to get out of the light?? Remember when setting your snakes up with 24/7 it must be done the same as the monitors.

They too need a dark side of the cage without that they are stuck in light always. Being stuck there is not allowing them to have a choice, therefor they are stressed.

I breed coastals and jungles, I have had them produce with or without a light cycle.

yeah, i allowed them out of the light. they had two hides, one moist with sphagnum (laying) and one dry. they were rubbermaids with holes large enough for them to get in but not too large as to let out moisture or to allow too much light.

i am keeping my carpets without a light cycle out all currently except for what they might get out of a room that is lit at times.

andrew

Between Theory and spectulation.

Most of what you are saying is spectulation, not theory. Look it up. FR

np

I worked third shift for 2 years. I think if I would have had a nice person size slab of cork bark over my bed I would have been pretty happy. As it was, I worked in the light and slept in the light and I was pretty ok with it, I never even got around to taping garbage bags over the windows.
I work first shift right now and it's REALLY screwing with me, by the way.
This isn't a serious post, of course, just all those monitors sleeping with the lights on remind me of me except they get a burrow.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

Dr Kathryn Tosney, Professor of Biology, The University of Michigan http://biology.lsa.umich.edu/research/labs/ktosney/index.html

Place both UVB and basking lights on an appliance timer (12-14 hours on; off at night). Erratic day lengths will screw up their circadian rhythms and make them first lethargic and then actively sick.

Melissa Kaplan, Author and rehabilator of wildlife, www.anapsid.com

Never use a white light of any sort at night, for lighting or for heat. This will stress your animal, eventually affecting its ability to thrive through the resultant lack of sleep, loss of appetite, and other stress-related symptoms. If you need to provide supplemental heat at night in addition to the undertank heating, use a ceramic heating element or a nocturnal reptile bulb; the former produces no light, while the latter produces a dim bluish-purple light.

Dr. Douglas Mader, M.S. D.V.M. ,Author of Reptile Medicine and Surgery, Associate Professor Department of Medicine and Epidemiology, School of Veterinay Medicine, Univeristy of California ar Davis, Ca, Staff Vet for the Santa Anna Zoo, Attending Vet Allergan Phamaceuticals

The period length of the photophase may be constant or varied to correspond to the photophase observed at a selected latitude. Twelve hours of light per day is often used and corresponds to the year-round daylength at the equator. The time of lights/off may likewise be set to parallel the phasing at a given latitude. Photoperiod effects have been systematically studied in relatively few species. It has been shown that photoperiod can influence a variety of physiologic rhythms, including thermoregulation and reproduction/ Irrespective of the details, a light/dark cycle of some sort is indicated for reptiles.

Whenever possible, the daylight cycle should remain close to what the reptile would experience in the wild. Species should be on a four season cycle providing 15 hours od daylight during the summer, 12 hus dueing the spring and fall and 9 hours during the winter.

Please note some posters name and use caution when following any advice from them.... as the above indicates, that advise is in fact potentially deadly to your animals.
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www.reptilerooms.com

I dont know the other individuals on post, but Melissa Kaplans caresheets and advice on monitors is horrible, if you read them then actually researched youd know that, its basic lizard biology.

Hmmmmmmm, how does one explain it and drop names to make it right, all at the same time.

First let me ask you some questions,

Do you really think a litebulb is the sun? do you think the monitors really think so? Exactly what in those papers from those fine authors caused or led them to say what they said??

Once a really great herper and keeper, Erine Wagner, came over and upon viewing my outdoor cages. He asked about the lites that were on at night. He asked, what about the photoperiod? I looked to the sky and said, in the mourning, the sun will come up over there. That is a lite bulb.

While that seems very basic and simple minded, it is. The sun is the sun and a lite bulb is a lite bulb. There is a bit more to how reptiles respond to the sun, then only from the lite. Like when they are deep down in burrows, how do they know its day?

About lites and captivity, If your going to use a litebulb as a heat source, 24/7, you really should allow the monitors to be able to excape the lite and find dark areas, like burrows etc. WAIT, shouldn't you allow that anyway?

Dr. Ube Krebs gave a talk on the effects of varying photoperiods on Ackie reproduction. I attended, the result, it did not have an effect. I agreed.

I do have a little experience with ackies, and many other species. In fact, generation after generation of experience. I have successfully kept them and bred them, with lites on 24/7, with a lite cycle, with a lite cycle that resembled the one here, and the ones where they originated. And now experimenting with no added lite. The result is again the same, as long as they have access to proper temps and other non-lite related husbandry, they do great.

More questions, I have for you, do you really think monitors or any reptiles comes out with the sun comes up, and stays out until is down? ever?

In all reality, reptiles become active and inactive for the same reasons in both captivity and nature, they do so because its allowable and benefitual. Heat is more of an attraction and a deterent then lite.

More reality, many individual monitors with 24/7 lites, choose to become active in our night. The reason, they do not like us. Or to avoid other cagemates. This is so, even with apparently tame monitors. hmmmmmmmm. FR

time to do her stuff,she sleeps all day,and about 12 at night she rises,i know this because i have a cctv camera in her enclosure,so far i havent found any ill-effects but maybe later if there is a problem ill see it.Right now shes happy when theres no-one running around banging and screaming(my kids)As soon as it quietens down shes out and aboutBy far i am not experienced in the slightest when it comes to monitors but i know that my nile sleeps well eats well and sh*ts well with 24/7 lightingAlways have done it this way,mainly for her not me,too cold here at night.
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see yah laterz people
jason
"the road to excess leads to the palace of wisdom for you never know what is enough until you have too much"

that was very well thought out there.

There's nothing wrong with giving your monitors a daynight cycle. Now, what you wrote at the bottom of your post about lizards potentially dying because of a 24 hr light cycle is ridiculous. Remember that dark hide spots and burrows are options given to them.

where one has no real experience. You are questioning the husbandry of some of the most successful monitor breeders in the country(the world, in fact).
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

Sorry, I will stick to the published experts that have proven themselves in the field, not voices on a forum, that think a few months and not killing their animals make them pros
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www.reptilerooms.com

I don't ever recall saying I was an expert at anything, but if you want to label me one, thanks. I stick with the published experts and I will stick with learning from my own experiences and other successful breeders.

>>Sorry, I will stick to the published experts that have proven themselves in the field, not voices on a forum, that think a few months and not killing their animals make them pros
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>>www.reptilerooms.com
>>
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

.>>I don't ever recall saying I was an expert at anything, but if you want to label me one, thanks. I stick with the published experts and I will stick with learning from my own experiences and other successful breeders.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Sorry, I will stick to the published experts that have proven themselves in the field, not voices on a forum, that think a few months and not killing their animals make them pros
>>>>-----
>>>>www.reptilerooms.com
>>>>
>>-----
>>Bill DiFabio
>>Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
>>Email Me
>>"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman
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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"If you don't have enemies, you don't have character." - Paul Newman

Cheri, how in the world is a 24/7 light set-up going to kill an animal that can get out of the light into it's hide-spot when ever it wants?

First since when does writing it down all of a sudden make it fact? Nothing against the authors you mention, but just because you read something doesn't make it right.

How many test's did they run to come to that conclusion?

I myself have been breeding reptiles and keeping them for along time, I have not had 1 drop dead from being exposed to light.

So with that being said why would they die from being in light? What on there body is effected by to much light? Are they now vampires and turn into flames?

Last I checked light is a not something thats harmful, the only reason we get a night and day cycle is the earth rotates. The sun is then not visible to us and the moon appears. Oh no the moon gives off light too.

Now what about that silly spot on earth you know the one with 6 months of light then 6 months of darkness. Must not be anything living there, cause otherwise they'd die in all that light.

Things evolve and adjust, we do not simply go to sleep cause the sun is gone and the moon is up. There is alot more to it then that.

Please do some more research before quoiting people. They may know what they are saying and talking about, but yet they may be not so good at translating it. Therefor when you read what they say you interpret it incorrectly.

So by all means read books, but don't take them word for word sometimes you gotta read between the lines.

Cheri,

your name dropping is hilarious.

here is a name for you: i get together with Robert Sprackland on a regular basis now (every other week), he knows a lot about monitors but he wouldn't tell me the first thing about keeping mine because he looks at them in the wild and studied them in classrooms.

there are lots of fun people with big names involved with herps and some you listen to about how to take care of our captives and some you don't. Melissa Kaplan once again does not know crap about monitors.

andrew

We dont tell them what they want or need, they know those things alot better than us, we are only keepers therefore responsible to allow our animals to have options, be healthy, and do what they do naturally, not make them into something they are not because it suits us. Its about options not personal covenience, or controlling another life form and dominating it. Give them the choice and allow them to take their path to follow, after all whether they are CBB or WC we have to offer whats best for them not our own convenience. These things as always should have been researched long before getting the animals. Dont have them suffer because of our personal agendas.
According to something I was recently (funny actually ) told is that Sobek here is a sub adult, as shes only 2 years old and over 6ft and 25lbs. Or I guess my 4ft deformed male is an adult even when he was 2 ft long at Sobeks age, a year ago. Hmmm....

Melissa Kaplan is not a monitor expert, first and foremost.

secondly, she is an iguana expert.

monitors and iquanas are far different from one another, especially the ones she writes so much about.

the first and foremost difference is one is fossorial one is not.

i am sure you can figure out what that means.

andrew