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I know it is possible to do this as it is the only way to get certain morphs and color patterns (ie jungle) but how safe is this??? Won't a King eat or injure a corn???

If this is possible what steps might we take to prevent injury or death???

and just for curiousity's sake...

What might happen if we were to breed a cal king (het for high yellow, albino and reverse stripe) with a sunglo corn (het for anery, amel, and snow)???

Thanks...
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Chris Vanderwees
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You can visit the Hybrid Forum and get info as to the tricks of getting a corn and a cal king to breed together. But genetically speaking, in cal kings, High Yellow and striping/reverse striping are not recessive genes and therfore cannot and are not "het" for those traits.

Kerby...

>But genetically speaking, in cal kings, High Yellow and striping/reverse striping are not recessive genes and therfore cannot and are not "het" for those traits.

Got to disagree here. Heterozygosity has nothing to do with whether a gene is recessive or dominant to normal. By definition, a heterozygous animal has two genes in a gene pair which are different from each other. One gene may be normal and the other a recessive mutant, one gene may be normal and the other a dominant mutant, one gene may be normal and the other a codominant mutant, or the two genes may be different mutants. A Cal king with one normal gene paired with a striped gene fits the definition of heterozygous.

A recessive mutant gene is one that does not produce the mutant look when heterozygous (one normal gene paired with the mutant gene). IOW, the snake looks normal.

A dominant mutant gene is one that produces the mutant look when heterozygous (one normal gene paired with the mutant gene).

Striped fits the definition of a dominant mutant gene.

FWIW, a friend of mine mated a striped to a normal Cal king. He got some striped and some normal babies. This fits the expectation of the result from the cross of a heterozygous striped Cal king and a (homozygous) normal Cal king.

Paul Hollander

***Striped fits the definition of a dominant mutant gene.***

Agreed, and that is not what the poster said.

***FWIW, a friend of mine mated a striped to a normal Cal king. He got some striped and some normal babies. This fits the expectation of the result from the cross of a heterozygous striped Cal king and a (homozygous) normal Cal king***

Exactly, that is the norm when you breed a striped cal king ( a normal occuring animal in the wild) to a banded cal king ( a normal occuring animal in the wild). You will get some banded, some striped, and some that are in-between. Striping in corns IS RECESSIVE and in cal kings IT IS NOT. That is not an opinion, but a fact. To say that a corn is het for striping is correct, but to say that a cal king is het for striping is not correct.

The term "het" has often been referred and generally accepted as a recessive gene. It is viewed as such in herp magazines, herp forums, at herp shows, etc... To say that a cal king is het for High Yellow or het for striping is not correct.

Kerby...

>Striping in corns IS RECESSIVE and in cal kings IT IS NOT. That is not an opinion, but a fact.

I agree. It's a fact that the striped mutant in the corn snake is a recessive and in Cal kings striped is not a recessive.

>To say that a corn is het for striping is correct, but to say that a cal king is het for striping is not correct.

I still disagree.

Here is a standard definition:

"Heterozygote - a diploid or polyploid individual that has inherited different alleles at one or more loci and therefore does not breed true." Robert C. King and William D. Stansfield. A dictionary of genetics. Oxford University Press. 6th ed., 2002, 530 pp. ISBN 0-19-514324-8

Please tell me how the striped king snake mentioned in both your and my posts above does not fit the definition of a heterozygous individual (heterozygote).

I am well aware of how "heterozygous" is used in the herping community. Assuming that heterozygous refers only to recessive mutants is an easy trap to stumble into when the only mutants one is aware of are recessives. Hopefully the community will adjust to the standard definition as people become aware of various dominant mutants in ball pythons, etc.

Paul Hollander

but the "proper" definition and the definition that is accepted by the herp industry are different. So, IMO it is mis-leading that on these forums and on the classifieds people are advertising cal kings as being "het" for high white and cal kings being "het" for stripe in the same breath in saying that a corn is "het" for amel, etc... Very mis-leading to the people reading those ads and comments and not accurate to the majority of the people involved with herping.

Thanks for your comments, you are the "go-to-guy" when it comes to genetics.

Kerby...

Here is foto of hybrid female E. g. guttata and L. m. mexicana. It's parents keep together for wintering period and kings do corn nothing.

As you can see - this snake very similiar to L. mexicana and almost nothing have from corns.

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Ivan Arinin
ICQ 151665951
E.g. guttata Normal 2.3
E.g. guttata Albino 2.4
E.g. guttata Oketee 2.0
E.g. guttata Hypo Oketee 1.1
E.g. guttata Albino Okeetee 2.2
E.g. guttata Ghost 2.3
E.g. guttata Motley 2.2
E.g. guttata Albino Motley 2.2
E.g. guttata Anerythristic 2.2
E.g. guttata Snow 2.4
E.g. guttata Creamsicle 2.1
E.g. rosacea 2.2
E.g. emoryi 2.2

E. persica black 3.4
E. persica brown 2.1
E. longissima 4.6
E. situla 3.3
E. dione 54
E. bimaculata 4.3
E. quatourlineata 10.15

E. o. obsoleta yellow 2.2
E. o. lindheimeri White Sided 2.2.
E. o. lindheomeri Leucistic 1.2
E. o. lindheimeri Black Orange 2.2
E. o. quatourlineata 1.3
E. o. quatourlineata Deckerti 2.2
E. o. quatourlineata Williamsi 1.0
E. o. rossalleni 2.2

Langaha madagascariensis 2.1.12
Cylindrophis ruffus 0.1
Enhydris plumbea 1.0

Here is foto.

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Ivan Arinin
ICQ 151665951
E.g. guttata Normal 2.3
E.g. guttata Albino 2.4
E.g. guttata Oketee 2.0
E.g. guttata Hypo Oketee 1.1
E.g. guttata Albino Okeetee 2.2
E.g. guttata Ghost 2.3
E.g. guttata Motley 2.2
E.g. guttata Albino Motley 2.2
E.g. guttata Anerythristic 2.2
E.g. guttata Snow 2.4
E.g. guttata Creamsicle 2.1
E.g. rosacea 2.2
E.g. emoryi 2.2

E. persica black 3.4
E. persica brown 2.1
E. longissima 4.6
E. situla 3.3
E. dione 54
E. bimaculata 4.3
E. quatourlineata 10.15

E. o. obsoleta yellow 2.2
E. o. lindheimeri White Sided 2.2.
E. o. lindheomeri Leucistic 1.2
E. o. lindheimeri Black Orange 2.2
E. o. quatourlineata 1.3
E. o. quatourlineata Deckerti 2.2
E. o. quatourlineata Williamsi 1.0
E. o. rossalleni 2.2

Langaha madagascariensis 2.1.12
Cylindrophis ruffus 0.1
Enhydris plumbea 1.0

You have to watch them when you put them together. Do not leave them alone or overnight together. This is part of the reason the price of a jungle corn is high.

I usually tease each snake with a snake of the same type. ie put the corn in with a corn and the king in with a king, of opposite sex. Then when they start the "mating dance" I switch the pairs.

as far as morphs, the way the genes combine is not as simple as normal, but here is what you should get.

What might happen if we were to breed a cal king (het for high yellow, albino and reverse stripe) with a sunglo corn (het for anery, amel, and snow)???

1/2 normal jungles het amel poss het anery
1/2 amel jungles.

the high yellow and reverse stripe in the king is not recessive, so it might show up in the jungles. There is now way to tell. I hybrid you can't tell if the offspring will look like the corn, king, or both. They are very variable, until you get into jungle to jungle breeding.

Once you get into jungle to jungle you can figure out the genes better and have a better chance of knowing what the offspring should look like, but sometime the cal or corn appreance will reappear out of know where. I have had f5 snake who had no call since p1 who have produced offspring the looked 85% king. Weird.

tom
xtremeherps@yahoo.com

np.