Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know BGF has put this forward in some of the written information on his website, but until last night I had never seen the actual case. I needed to tube my young female to remove a bit of stuck skin from the tip of her tail, and a friend of mine who was helping me (and is a huge fan of Dr. Fry and knows the information on his website better than anyone else I know, lol) pointed out to me that on the underside of the bottom jaw, two small reddish areas were visible. He is the one who first informed me some time ago about reading that some taipans actually wear holes completely through their jaws and, according to Dr. Fry, they can be milked without even having to open their mouths. Two and two were quickly put together, and especially after seeing her gape a bit and "calculating" where the fang would touch the bottom jaw, it was pretty apparent that indeed, the fangs are starting to try to push through. The male is doing this as well, though his aren't quite as noticeable as the female's. I know this has been covered by Dr. Fry on his site to some degree, but this was a pretty interesting discovery to me about these specific snakes. I had a large adult some time ago that didn't exhibit this that I noticed, and these guys are just juveniles. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with being in captivity, but whatever it is, it is very interesting. Any ideas on why a fixed-fanged species would have evolved in such a manner that one body part grows too large and penetrates another? This seems pretty rare in nature. I know there are species of mountain goat whose horns occasionally grow into their skulls, and sometimes this can be fatal. I would be very interested to hear BGF's comments about this as to why he thinks they develop in this manner. After seeing the female gape a few times and see the proportion of the head to the fangs to the bottom jaw, it just floors me that they would develop such large fangs. Pictures were taken to the best of our abilities, and I will try to post them sometime later this evening or tonight.
-Chance
R

Basically, what you are seeing is a species hitting the buffers in an evolutionary trade-off between selection for greater fang length and selection for keeping the fangs intact and the mouth functional.

There is clearly selective pressure for increased fang length in Oxyuranus scutellatus. Presumably, this is related to the snake using a strike-release predatory tactic against well-defended mammals with thick fur - just like many vipers.

However, since Oxyuranus is an elapid with a more or less fixed maxilla, it cannot simply evolve a hinged fang on demand.

What we end up with is a species that has pushed extreme fang length to the extreme point where any further increase in length would be selected against, as it would result in the fangs sticking so far through the lower jaws that they would break or wear down rapidly. Having a small hole in the lower jaw obviously doesn't do much harm, anything more might.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
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WW Home

Also might explain why they are so cranky

This may be a natural condition, comparable to what happens to some rabbits and gerbils when their teeth overgrow, but I would expect that it is painful. Snake mouths are very well innervated.

Ethically and for practical health reasons I would suggest addressing this issue from a veterinary standpoint. Permanent surgical correction might be one option for severely affected animals, long term pain relief medication might be another possibility. There have been some interesting studies in reptile medicine presented recently involving long term pain management for MBD/SNHP iguanas, and the results are probably worth trying on other reptiles as well.

Its not exactly addressable in the manner you are suggesting in light of the fact that the fangs are of course shed routinely.

The pain issue is fairly trivial considering how thin the floor of the mouth is and as you metntioned the natural condition. Scar tissue can build up eventually ala pierced ears.

Cheers
Bryan

>>This may be a natural condition, comparable to what happens to some rabbits and gerbils when their teeth overgrow, but I would expect that it is painful. Snake mouths are very well innervated.
>>
>>Ethically and for practical health reasons I would suggest addressing this issue from a veterinary standpoint. Permanent surgical correction might be one option for severely affected animals, long term pain relief medication might be another possibility. There have been some interesting studies in reptile medicine presented recently involving long term pain management for MBD/SNHP iguanas, and the results are probably worth trying on other reptiles as well.
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne

www.venomdoc.com

We've put a few elapids back together in the clinic that suffered extremely severe head and mouth damage. At times necrotic bone had to be removed to prevent osteomyelitis from spreading to healthy tissue. If there was a medical, compassionate reason to surgically de-fang a snake, I am guessing that it would be within the realm of possibility at least to attempt. These kinds of operations have been successfully performed for mammals that suffer chronic tooth overgrowth, though I am unsure of how effective they would be on snakes.

The attempt would be an extremely serious, invasive and crippling operation with significant risk to the animal, and it wouldn't be a good idea to undertake it unless it was really necessary to relieve a severe chronic pain condition and the animal would have no quality of life otherwise. It sounds like a much less serious situation than I was envisioning after reading the first description, so I don't think that surgical correction would be justified.

We have seen bones regenerate after surgical removal, so it might not be a permanent solution in any case. I have an interesting series of photographs and x-rays that document injury and recovery in a green mamba; there is clear evidence of bone regeneration on one side of the lower jaw over a six month period. For some reason the other side did not regenerate as readily and the defect where necrotic bone was removed can still be seen in this animal on only one side of the jaw. Immediately after surgery the jaw was pretty much bilateral in appearance because bone was removed from both sides. Just some interesting things to think about.

I imagine if someone had the bright idea of using true surgical de-fanging as an alternative to adenectomy, they might get an unpleasant surprise - mambas at least seem to heal some kinds of bone deficits fairly rapidly. Also it's a hell of a risky place to be fooling around in; osteomyelitis around the bones of the skull is a sure killer without intensive antibiotic support.

Removing the fangs and or the upper jaw bone would be a completely unwarranted procedure.
Many times...90% of the time veterinary procedures on reptiles is unwarranted. Especially surgical ones.
With good husbandry, even sick reptiles will come around left alone. With an exceptional quality of life left.
More often than not, the less you do the more recovery you can expect.
Terry
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

In this case, after seeing the photos, I agree that surgical intervention is not warranted in this situation. Careful husbandry practices to avoid infection is probably the level of treatment called for, and that is already in place.

Sorry about the delay. Here are the photos I said I would upload that were taken the night this was noticed.

First is a shot of the female with her mouth opened a bit so you can get an idea of the fang to head size. After seeing this, it is not difficult to imagine why they would begin to push through the bottom jaw.

Here you can see the small wounds being created by the enlarging fangs. I would imagine that this has been going on for quite some time, I only just now noticed it with close observation.

And here is the male's bottom jaw. His aren't quite as noticeable as the female's, though obviously they are definitely there.

I don't imagine that medical attention is required for this, as like Dr. Fry noted, this is a very common occurence in this species and the tissue around the hole will quickly heal just like any other piercing. I will, however, keep an eye on them and if any infection or something similar starts to show itself, they will of course be taken to the vet immediately.
-Chance

Nice pics. Interestingly, we just caught a variant of Pseudonaja textilis that has the longest fangs relative to head size of any Pseudonaja I have ever seen and the fangs are doing the taipan trick of poking through. Interestingly enough, this snake also has the most taipan like head of any brown snake we have seen as well, illustrating nicely how awfully genetically close Oxyuranus and Pseudonaja are.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne

www.venomdoc.com

Having survived the previous wars concerning any reported observations regarding an Australian snake, I think it is appropriate to enter this caveat here:
"Be it known to all that anything which can be observed or will ever be observed about any snake which can be found in Australia has already been observed and reported by Raymond Hoser - Probably before we all were born."
Having acknowledged that, we can all now be appropriately awed by Chance's personal observations.
Karl
(who is really only acknowledging for himself and is in no way obligating anyone else here to acknowledge Ray Hoser's taxonomic superiority - I am comfortable doing so as I have no desires to have anything not descended from me named after me)KHB

>>Having survived the previous wars concerning any reported observations regarding an Australian snake, I think it is appropriate to enter this caveat here:
>>"Be it known to all that anything which can be observed or will ever be observed about any snake which can be found in Australia has already been observed and reported by Raymond Hoser - Probably before we all were born."
>>Having acknowledged that, we can all now be appropriately awed by Chance's personal observations.
>>Karl
>>who is really only acknowledging for himself and is in no way obligating anyone else here to acknowledge Ray Hoser's taxonomic superiority - I am comfortable doing so as I have no desires to have anything not descended from me named after me)KHB
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WW Home

Just a point of interest. I understand that this happens in wild snakes, but just because you find it in a wild snake does not mean that it is "normal". I have a handful of Taipans of two species, and have had many more in the past. Granted I did not specifically look for signs of the fangs protruding from the bottom jaw. But I did specifically go look today at all of them. There is nothing more unusual about there lower jaw than on any other snake. Other than the obvious bulge under each fang, similar to many mambas.
My thought for you Chance would be to look at your captive husbandry of the animals in question. You are obviously going to keep them, so some help might be in order.
Look at your substrate and cage decorations. I feel it is more likely a condition of the environment ( both captive and wild ) Constantly bumping into hard objects with the "fang holster" so to speak. Might lead to an eventual abrasion or removal of the scale and skin under each fang.
Give it a thought.
Terry
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

Whenever I see bilateral symmetry in lesions, I normally start thinking about causes other than external trauma. The lesions on the lower jaw do not appear to be characteristic of rostral rubbing.

In the only photos I have seen of Chance's enclosures they seemed to provide sufficient cover, but perhaps taipans need more than other species. I rarely get a chance to work with the Aussie species and have never kept them at home. David and Bryan, please feel free to send me a big care package full of taipans and king browns and death adders and tiger snakes to remedy this situation.