Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just kind of want to vent because I'm not sure if there is anything else I can or should do. Yesterday when I got home the first thing I found was that one of my weanlings was dead and half eaten by her siblings. I didn't notice any signs of sickness before hand and the others seem fine. Would weanlings kill each other if they were feeling over crowded? There were only six (almost 5 weeks olds) in the cage but it's not a huge cage. Just a temporary cage I put them in to take them to the petstore tomorrow. Now I am worried about taking them because the dead one could have died of some disease before it was eaten although I haven't had any illnesses that I know of and no new rats.

Then, to top it off one of my other rats was giving birth so I left her alone to let her finish up. I did see her cleaning up a baby that looked like it was alive at the time. I should mention that this rats last litter was 1/16/04 so it's 7 weeks later but I didn't think she was looking fat enough to actually be due. When I went back in to change waters and see how it was going she'd had six babies and all of them were dead. There was also more blood than I would normally associate with birth. The mother's tail was splotched with it and there was quite a bit in the shavings. She'd cleaned up five of the babies and was sitting on them like she was trying to nurse. The last one was still attached to the placenta and looked like it was crushed a bit. The babies looked full term so her small size might have been due to the fact she only had six. Her last litter was 14 and she was huge. So now she helping raise some fuzzies that are in the colony but I don't know what to do with her. I am worried about her having any more babies.

If you guys have any good suggestions, please let me know. Last night was the first time I have had a real disaster, and it was depressing.
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Anna

The Zoo
Corns
1.0 Snow - Cornelius
1.1 Ghost(pastel) - Gray Ghost & Pink
1.1 Amel - Parker & Scarlet
0.1 Hypo - Nikko
0.1 Anery - Missy
0.1 Hypo Motley - Cordelia aka Cordy
Boas
0.1 Columbian (BCC) - Bella
Lizards
1.0 Leopard Gecko - Leo
Rats
0.1 Dumbo Agouti - Moon
1.0 Silvered Black - Pluto
1.0 Powder Blue - Corner
0.1 Dumbo Siamese - Lily
Plus the breeders & babies
Cats
1.1 Siamese - Blue & Fiona
0.1 Gray DMS - Druscilla aka Dru
Horses
1.0 Thourghbred (Hunter/Jumper) - Morgan's Majesty aka Cody

If it were me I wouldn't panic for either the mice or the rats. I would take the other mice to the pet store if that is where they were headed. Could be lack of water, protein, died and cleaning up or just plain some sick mousey Lord of the Flies thing. I wouldn't try too hard to understand unless it becomes a habit with a group.

With the rat litter....If she is one of only a couple of rats you are breeding I would probably give her another chance. If she is one of many, I might freeze her off. Again, could be disease, could be she went early, or after the 14 she was a bit too beat to breed back still. If there was a dead and she had eaten some she was likely cleaning up and not killing them. Again, I gave up trying to figure out why. If I was doing it for a living I might worry more. Otherwise, life goes on.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

LOL…I love the reference. If they were mice I would totally understand some sick mousey Lord of the Flies thing but they are 5 week old rats. I keep hearing it’s more unusual for rats to kill each other especially littermates that are raised together. And the cannibalism I am sure was just cleaning up; it’s not even what bothered me. (Well…okay…it was pretty gross.) What I’m more worried about is that they might not have killed her and it was some kind of disease. Is it rare for rats to have congenital disorders? Like some kind of internal defect that might have killed her? I would have taken it to the vet but there wasn’t much left. I guess I won’t stress unless the rest of the group dies too.

I do feel better about the litter I lost. I was going to pull them anyway because I am almost out of pinks in the freezer. I figure I’ll give Mom one more chance because otherwise she’d just go into the feeder bin at the pet store. Unfortunately, she won’t make a good pet because she’s way too shy. I have another female coming up that’s about 3 weeks away from being able to replace her.

On a related note if you find a litter dead like that with no explanation do you just throw them away? I did just to be on the safe side but it felt so wasteful.
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Anna

The Zoo
Corns
1.0 Snow - Cornelius
1.1 Ghost(pastel) - Gray Ghost & Pink
1.1 Amel - Parker & Scarlet
0.1 Hypo - Nikko
0.1 Anery - Missy
0.1 Hypo Motley - Cordelia aka Cordy
Boas
0.1 Columbian (BCC) - Bella
Lizards
1.0 Leopard Gecko - Leo
Rats
0.1 Dumbo Agouti - Moon
1.0 Silvered Black - Pluto
1.0 Powder Blue - Corner
0.1 Dumbo Siamese - Lily
Plus the breeders & babies
Cats
1.1 Siamese - Blue & Fiona
0.1 Gray DMS - Druscilla aka Dru
Horses
1.0 Thourghbred (Hunter/Jumper) - Morgan's Majesty aka Cody

>>
>>On a related note if you find a litter dead like that with no explanation do you just throw them away? I did just to be on the safe side but it felt so wasteful.

Well, I often feed them to my savannah monitors, since they will eat anything. This assuming the babies are 'fresh'. Most of my snakes wouldn't eat dead rat newborns. But if I had one that did I would feed them. I haven't ever put them in the freezer for later use....but I have never been 'out' of them either. I think if I were desperate I would, provided they weren't stomped flat or something.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

Anna,
Sonya has given you some good advise and I agree with her. Don't worry too much about it. There could be any one of hundreds of causes. If it becomes a repeated thing figureing it out may be more important.

With your rats, 5 week babies spend most of their time fighting and tumbling and trying to establish dominance. Most of the time there is now harm or blood in this activity but maybe your baby got injured during a tussle. In any case, I wouldn't assume disease. I wouldn't worry about the health of the remaining babies.
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Wade's Weptiles & Wodents

Thanks to you both for the words of encouragement. Everything's gone well since that day and the smaller rats look healthy enough. Even the mom that lost her pups looks like she's getting her strength back.
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Anna

The Zoo
Corns
1.0 Snow - Cornelius
1.1 Ghost(pastel) - Gray Ghost & Pink
1.1 Amel - Parker & Scarlet
0.1 Hypo - Nikko
0.1 Anery - Missy
0.1 Hypo Motley - Cordelia aka Cordy
Boas
0.1 Columbian (BCC) - Bella
Lizards
1.0 Leopard Gecko - Leo
Rats
0.1 Dumbo Agouti - Moon
1.0 Silvered Black - Pluto
1.0 Powder Blue - Corner
0.1 Dumbo Siamese - Lily
Plus the breeders & babies
Cats
1.1 Siamese - Blue & Fiona
0.1 Gray DMS - Druscilla aka Dru
Horses
1.0 Thourghbred (Hunter/Jumper) - Morgan's Majesty aka Cody