Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Forgive be if I repeat some items already covered. I have very little time to keep up with all the psots, but felt it important enough to respond to some of the ideas coming from the anonymous BB since Op Slither took place.

The ideas expressed by “Bubba” appear well intentioned, but are inherently flawed. I have heard similar arguments from only one person. That individual turned on innocent acquaintances for no apparent reason – except perhaps emotional instability. And that individual’s cohort has been ‘big brothers’ right hand man in collecting protected species, transporting them across state lines, and pushing them upon unsuspecting individuals who had NO intentions of breaking the law.

The idea that the herp community is responsible to police itself is ludicrous at best. To expand upon such logic would assume that corporate America should police itself. Or that drivers on the freeway should make sure that every passing motorist is operating within the speed limits.

I abhor the idea, as I believe most people do, that there would be countless untrained, unprofessional, ‘enforcers’ out there. (Some whose stability is questionable) Who would want their neighbors scrutinizing every move, hoping to find something that they have done wrong? And what if your neighbor has a bone to pick with you? I have enough to worry about keeping my own nose clean with the complicated rules regarding herps, let alone worry about what someone else is doing, or what someone else is thinking about me.

I submit that the herp community policing itself is the EXACT thing that wildlife enforcement divisions do NOT want to happen. Why would they want to be subjecting themselves to partial extinction? No, I propose that LE pumps up the charges to create work, and prove to financial decision makers how critical their role is. Just observe the trumped up charges and fanfare that occurred from Operations King Rosy, Rock Cut, and Slither. And where is result of those operations? Pathetic at best.

It is not that the herp community is unwilling to turn in poachers any more than hunters or fisherman. Just the opposite. There are a number of instances I am aware of where individuals were turned in. I am also aware of a time when an undercover officer was in the presence of a notorious poacher as he tried to sell wild caught animals. The sad fact of the stories above are that NOTHING was done by law enforcement in any of the circumstances. Why even bother to turn in a poacher if LE will do nothing about it? – Not even look into it further? It’s no wonder that when Operation Slither comes along, and LE is tooting their horn about how much effort they are putting forth to ‘save’ species, that informed individuals have reason to roll their eyes and feel resignation that LE does not really care about the herps. They are willing to ignore enforcing major violations, but go ballistic on some individuals for class C misdemeanors?

In fact, the severe mistreatment of the herp community by LE is the primary reason in my opinion that they don’t ‘police themselves’ more. Who would want an individual to be virtually raped for an infraction that may have been an innocent mistake. That is what is has come down to in so many of these operations. Then, to heap on the injury, often many of the confiscated animals (that are legal, and should be returned) are killed. The same crap happened in Operation Falcon. If the herp community could feel that the punishments fit the crime, there would not be so much hesitation to inform LE of wrongdoing. It’s not only that LE are testosterone Jocks, they don’t have ANY clue what they are enforcing. Its not about being able to determine a Ratsnake from a Kingsnake, it gets down to not even being able to interpret rules, and trying to enforce possession limits based on annual take limits rules!

Does it really take 6 armed LE, and two supervisors to serve a search warrant on a housewife and two kids? (yes, they knew that was the situation they would find) Does it really take five hours to review what is in the house and take loads of info that is unrelated? Wouldn’t it be beneficial if LE informed themselves of the laws BEFORE going through with the above, so they could have some clue as to whether or not a law was broken? And that was what occurred at only one house for Operation Slither. Many other atrocities occurred at other locations of enforcement.

On top of all that, you’re dealing with laws that are discriminatory, unfounded, and emotionally determined. You would be hard pressed to find a consumptive use group (and that term is used loosely, as most herpers I know are most interested in catch and release, something else that LE fails to grasp) who has to put up with what herpers have to.

What this all leads to in my opinion:
“Bubba” cannot be trusted in the least bit. I propose that his/hers/its interaction on this forum is simply a fishing expedition. By acting as a friend, preaching about the herp communities responsibility to police itself, they are hoping to receive leads. I sure hope no one has fallen into this trap. If someone is doing wrong, they should be turned in, but I sure wouldn’t want them to be subjected to discriminatory wrath of LE against herpers. I do not believe “Bubba” has the herp communities best interests in mind. Rather, only its own interest to score kudos for hooking more through its innovate and deceptive fishing technique.

If LE wants a change to be made, take a look in the mirror. Reach out in honest efforts, not just in ways to learn, then turn, and burn those that helped you.

Ryan

Ryan,

By your line of reasoning, every LE person in the country must be reformed into an expert in herpetology, all wildlife laws must be enforced 100% with no mistakes and the court system must be absolutely perfect before you advocate people taking any responsibility for their own actions. Further, you suggest that people should never be involved with enforcing the law in any way because that would just encourage people to turn on their friends and neighbors.

Can you see how unrealistic your expectations are? If your line of reasoning were applied to child abduction cases, for example, there would be a whole lot more missing children. Pick any other LE example you like and apply your logic to it, and the only result will be chaos. If you see your neighbors kid breaking into a car at the mall do you do nothing? If you see your neighbor dumping oil down the storm drain, do you pretend that it does not affect the stream or the ground water your family drinks? If your neighbor likes to drive 40 mph through the neighborhood, is there no chance his actions might result in your child being hit by his car? Our actions affect other people, and pretending that the actions of other will not affect us does not mean that they won’t.

No one is perfect and nothing is absolute, and change occurs at a very slow pace especially when you are dealing with government bureaucracy! Change, by its very nature, is a stepwise process, and any real lasting change needs to be entered into from both sides. Expecting someone else to do all the work for your benefit is simply not a realistic position, so you can either refuse to take action to save the hobby you profess to love, or you can continue on the path of allowing others to determine the fate of your hobby with out your input, the choice is yours.

All I am really advocating here is for people to look at the issue from a different perspective and stop blasting LE personnel as being the only problem when it comes to herp LE matters and recognize that our community has some problems with it that we need to address. I freely acknowledge that there is a lot of work that must be done on both sides of the fence, but if you want your side of the fence to look as good as your neighbors side, don’t expect him to pay for the fence and build it too, because if you do, you will almost certainly be looking at the posts and rails. Why should your neighbor make your side of the fence look good if you refuse to help build the fence and then criticize the way he builds it? It doesn’t matter if you have 20 years experience building fences, if you don’t help build the fence in a positive way, you will still loose!

As to the rest of your post… I had nothing to do with Operation Slither in any way. In fact, you seem to know a whole lot more about the details of Operation Slither than I do. So you can make up whatever story you like about my motives, and me, but that does not make them true. Let’s stick to discussing the issues and problems facing the herp community and stop trying to tear each other apart personally, shall we?

Big Brother

BB,

The reason LE is being blasted is because of their own gigantic egos. They brought this all on themselves. I feel pretty safe in saying the MAJORITY of the people who were cited in the Ohio bust last June were breeders of color morphs of black rat snakes. Such busts were a load of crap that have nothing to do with conservation.

In addition, the requirement of PIT tagging reptiles with an oversize tag not recommended for reptiles by its manufacturer, Avid, is a load of crap as well.

The vast majority of the herp community has the same opinion as Ryan. Aspects of Ohio's rules have nothing to do with herp conservation and until they change, LE will continue being blasted.

Tm Spuckler

Tim,

The Ohio bust was the result of the actions of a few LE personnel involved, not the entire department. Ohio is just one of fifty states in the US, and the F&WS is a completely different agency all together. In short, you have a beef with a very small number of LE personnel, even if you put forth the argument that the entire Ohio department is incompetent. Is it fair for the herp community to blast all LE personnel based on the actions of a few in Ohio or Utah? The herp community certainly claims that it is not fair for LE to place limitations on all herpers as a result of the actions of a few individuals within the herp community, so why is it ok to blast all LE officials based on the actions of a few, but it is not ok for LE to blast herpers based on the actions of a few? Further, when you call someone an incompetent idiot, your not exactly promoting an atmosphere of cooperative problem solving. A combative atmosphere will not promote change, it will only force people to dig into their positions and be closed to any suggestions or comments you may have, and it doesn’t make you look very good either. Finally, LE has nothing to loose by sticking with their plan, and the majority of the public will think it is fine or just plain don’t care (remember, the herp community is in the minority), so LE has nothing to loose, but you sure do. This kind of rhetoric only makes the problem worse, not better.

As to the PIT tag issue, you might find the following bibliography helpful. You should look at the Keck (1994), Freeland and Fry (1995), Lehmann (1996) and Camper and Dixon (1988) papers in particular. I said I would put this bibliography together for folks, and I did because I am trying to improve the relationship between herpers and LE.

Big Brother

Boarman, W. I., M. L. Beigel, et al. (1998). "A passive integrated transponder system for tracking animal movements." Wildlife Society Bulletin 26(4): 886-891.

Bronikowski, A. M. and S. J. Arnold (1999). "The evolutionary ecology of life history variation in the garter snake Thamnophis elegans." Ecology 80(7): 2314-2325.

Camper, J. D. and J. R. Dixon (1988). Evaluation of a Microchip Marking System for Amphibians and Reptiles, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, Research Report 7100-159: 1-22.

Fasola, M., F. Barbieri, et al. (1993). "Test of an electronic individual tag for newts." Herpetological Journal 3: 149-150.

Ferner, J. W. (1979). A Review Of Marking Techniques for Amphibians and Reptiles, Society For The Study Of Amphibians And Reptiles, Herpetological Circular No. 9: v-42.

Freeland, W. J. and K. Fry (1995). "Suitability of passive integrated transponder tags for marking live animals for trade." Wildlife Research 22(6): 767-773.

Jehle, R. and W. Hodl (1998). "PITs versus patterns: Effects of transponders on recapture rate and body condition of Danube crested newts (Triturus dobrogicus) and common spadefoot toads (Pelobates fuscus)." Herpetological Journal 8(4): 181-186.

Keck, M. B. (1994). "Test for Detrimental Effects of Pit Tags in Neonatal Snakes." Copeia(1): 226-228.

Lehmann, H. (1996). "Critical aspects of marking protected reptiles and amphibians for legislative purpose." Praktische Tierarzt 77(7): 589-&.

Ott, J. A. and D. E. Scott (1999). "Effects of toe-clipping and PIT-tagging on growth and survival in metamorphic Ambystoma opacum." Journal of Herpetology 33(2): 344-348.

Perret, N. and P. Joly (2002). "Impacts of tattooing and pit-tagging on survival and fecundity in the alpine newt (Triturus alpestris)." Herpetologica 58(1): 131-138.

Sinsch, U. (1997). "Effects of larval history and microtags on growth and survival of natterjack (Bufo calamita) metamorphs." Herpetological Journal 7(4): 163-168.

Vaughan, R. K., J. R. Dixon, et al. (1996). "A reevaluation of populations of the corn snake Elaphe guttata (Reptilia: Serpentes: Colubridae) in Texas." Texas Journal of Science 48(3): 175-190.

Kevin,

I gotta agree with you (again). And BB, the feds WERE involved in the Ohio bust - over leucistic western hognose snakes! I thought we agreed that color morphs should be exempt from all this nonsense. And yes, the feds raided the breeder's facility who had the white hognose.

What is truly outrageous is the amount of money spent on these "stings" (Ohio, or otherwise) where very few illegal collectors are caught and a large amount of taxpayer's money was spent on tapping phone lines and making videotapes of legitimate breeders of colors morps of snakes not normally found in nature - and then raiding their homes.

This had nothing to do with the conservation of wild populations of herps and money of taxpayers would be better spent buying and protecting wildlife habitat. I think the herp community would be more than willing to turn in the "bad guys," within their ranks - although it seems law enforcement is less than willing to do the same with their people.

As Kevin said, this is a two-way street.

Tim

Tim,

It sounds like we largely agree, and yes there are LE personnel that are embarrassed by the actions of some within the LE ranks, which is why it is so important to blast individual actions and not make general statements that all LE are incompetent ego maniacs because they are not. All I am suggesting is that people in the herp community should temper their anger to appropriate and specific targets rather than broad-based bashing of the entire LE community. It makes it very difficult for the, and I will admit this, few really good LE folks to make any headway against the bureaucratic stupidity that is driven largely by politicians when the entire LE community is being broad-sided for the actions of a few. For any real change to take place within the Gov’t, there needs to be a clear dichotomy between good actions and policies and bad. Broad-based bashing merely muddies the waters, and forces people into taking more and more extreme positions (take a look at Congress for an example) that makes real change difficult to impossible to accomplish. If the herp community really wants to see changes in the way LE operates, the herp community needs to cheer the good LE actions louder than they boo the bad actions. That way even the blind bureaucrats that drive the system will be able to see the difference. Further, the acts of cheering the good actions (like busting animal smugglers at the border or busting collectors of Endangered Species form National Parks and preserves) will help eliminate the bad image that many members of the LE community has about herpers. In short, I am suggesting that folks in the herp community need to take a more positive and tempered approach to encourage changes in the way LE operates with regard to herpers, and the argument that LE needs to change the way they operate before herpers need to make any efforts is unrealistic, and it hasn’t worked yet, so why keep beating a dead horse (Boy wouldn’t PETA like that analogy!=)

Are the references I posted helpful?

Big Brother

Thanks BB for twisting logic. Sad commentary about even those in LE that profess to be on a herpers side!

LE has created HUGE offenses with this latest round of inappropriate actions. At best, it's way too soon to be preaching for herpers to trust LE.

Tell you what BB - you and those LE that are "embarrassed" deliver up the leadership in LE that is corrupting the system. You make the first gesture to repair the fence that LE just smashed, and perhaps herpers would then be willing to help. If you're following corrupt leaders, are you not then involved yourself? as are all the testosterone jocks willing to enforce their leaders illegal actions?

Gotta run,
Ryan

Tim I agree with your statement except for this " money of taxpayers would be better spent buying and protecting wildlife habitat."
In my opinion the money would have been better spent setting up public meetings and data gathering system to discuss reforming laws that regulate obviously domestic strains of animals as if they were wild-caught animals and on conducting studies to see if animals placed on protected lists really warrant protection.

Good point Aaron,

Maybe they can first spend money re-evaluating and changing the ruling and then spend the following years' budget on things other than spying on breeders of albino black ratsnakes!

We've been through these same topics over and over again, and BB, you're always siding with the government - and it shows. You need to realize that breeders have been unjustly treated and fined in Ohio as well as in other states. There is a lot of resentment and for good reason.

It's not that difficult for states to establish a bag limit on adult animals and not to regulate color morphs. This is common sense. There is no need to PIT tag herps that are part of captive breeding programs. The NOAH website addresses all of this (www.noahonline.net).

I've said it before, but here it is again: The big egos and little brains of law enforcement officials got them into this mess. They have turned a great many herper against them. It is a shame. Class action suits will be filed regarding the PIT tag regulation. I am in no way associated with the suits, but will say that there at least two herper/lawyers who are rather eager to take LE to court on this.

If won, I would not be surprised at all if the two largest reptile breeders in the country (neither located in Ohio) will file defamation of character charges. It appears that there will be a great deal of fall-out from "Operation Slither" and it all could have been avoided if egos were set aside and common sense and respect for private and professional breeders prevailed.

Once again, I was not "busted" and am not involved in any of the lawsuits, therefore I am not in a position to discuss them.

Tim

There is a technique used often by people in public relations and newspaper editing (most obviosly in the opinion section)called the "straw man" technique. This is where you restate your opponents argument twisting it or adding easily refutable points and proceed to tear them down while avoiding any valid or hard to dispute claims that were originally posed.

Aaron,

Let me be clear. I am not, in any way, suggesting that there are not valid criticisms of the way LE has handled some cases. All I am saying is that blasting the entire LE community as being moronic egomaniacs instead of focusing on specific events is not a good way to encourage change or promote cooperation. However, I’m not really sure if you’re criticizing my comments or those of others who have attacked my perspective on this forum because the “straw man” technique has oft been used against my views=)

Bubba

Terms of Service of this board forbid the naming of specific individuals. It is up to each reader to determine whose arguments it applies to.