Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dr Kathryn Tosney, Professor of Biology, The University of Michigan http://biology.lsa.umich.edu/research/labs/ktosney/index.html
Place both UVB and basking lights on an appliance timer (12-14 hours on; off at night). Erratic day lengths will screw up their circadian rhythms and make them first lethargic and then actively sick. They detect environmental cues important to their circadian rhythms through their "third eye", the parietal eye. The dark period will also allow night temperatures to fall appropriately. Temperature can go down to the 60's or even the upper 50's without harm. Dragons are well adapted to cool semi-desert nights.

Melissa Kaplan, Author and rehabilator, www.anapsid.com about bearded dragons
Never use a white light of any sort at night, for lighting or for heat. This will stress your animal, eventually affecting its ability to thrive through the resultant lack of sleep, loss of appetite, and other stress-related symptoms. If you need to provide supplemental heat at night in addition to the undertank heating, use a ceramic heating element or a nocturnal reptile bulb; the former produces no light, while the latter produces a dim bluish-purple light.

Dr. Douglas Mader, M.S. D.V.M. ,Author of Reptile Medicine and Surgery, Associate Professor Department of Medicine and Epidemiology, School of Veterinay Medicine, Univeristy of California ar Davis, Ca, Staff Vet for the Santa Anna Zoo, Attending Vet Allergan Phamaceuticals
The period lenght of the photophase may be constant or varied to correspond to the photophase observed at a selected latitude. Twelve hours of light per day is often used and corresponds to the year-round daylength at the equator. The time of lights/off may likewise be set to parallel the phasing at a given latitude. Photoperiod effects have been systematically studied in relatively few species. It has been shown that photoperiod can influence a variety of physiologic rhythms, including thermoregulation and reproduction/ Irrespective of the details, a light/dark cycle of some sort is indicated for reptiles.

Whenever possible, the daylight cycle should remain close to what the reptile would experience in the wild. Species should be on a four season cycle providing 15 hours of daylight during the summer, 12 hours during the spring and fall and 9 hours during the winter.

Please use caution when following any advice that people post and only site "personal experiences" or "other breeders" tell me that, yet can produce no factual proof or studies. They may have no experience or very little with the advice they give.
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www.reptilerooms.com

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Edited subject line.

Edited on March 6, 2004 at 21:31:27 by PHWyvern.

First since when does writing it down all of a sudden make it fact? Nothing against the authors you mention, but just because you read something doesn't make it right.

How many test's did they run to come to that conclusion?

I myself have been breeding reptiles and keeping them for along time, I have not had 1 drop dead from being exposed to light.

So with that being said why would they die from being in light? What on there body is effected by to much light? Are they now vampires and turn into flames?

Last I checked light is a not something thats harmful, the only reason we get a night and day cycle is the earth rotates. The sun is then not visible to us and the moon appears. Oh no the moon gives off light too.

Now what about that silly spot on earth you know the one with 6 months of light then 6 months of darkness. Must not be anything living there, cause otherwise they'd die in all that light.

Things evolve and adjust, we do not simply go to sleep cause the sun is gone and the moon is up. There is alot more to it then that.

Please do some more research before quoting people. They may know what they are saying and talking about, but yet they may be not so good at translating it. Therefor when you read what they say you interpret it incorrectly.

So by all means read books, but don't take them word for word sometimes you gotta read between the lines.

Oh yeah did I mention I have bred beardies too, Oh wait who hasn't?

Maybe the real question to be asked is what do I do thats different then these people have done? Why do my animals thrive whether in no light, some light, or all day long light?

Why don't you email them and ask them where they get there info? All noted there have contributed greatly to info on reptiles and you shouldn't discount it so readily.....all things need to be researched but discounting without backing is the same as taking someones word for something. You didn't give any studies or quotes regarding the validity of your beliefs on the matter.

Australia doesn't have perpetual light, and actually the 2 points of the earth that do isn't 24 light hours....max about 22 light hours or dark hours, maybe a bit less....I have a few friends in AK... one place that does that. They also have no reptiles to speak of there, just a few frogs that burrow and hibernate all winter, no snakes, no lizards.

And as you point out, there are only 2 places on the earth that do this.....so it's not common at all....and yes, living things adapt to different environments, hence evolution.

My question to you, is why have the lights on all the time....what purpose does that serve? Do you sleep with all the lights on? I'm sure there maybe someone who does, but I don't think that's common either.

So, my point is having it light all the time is not a common natural state, so why impose that on any living creature? I guess you think mother nature doesn't know what they are doing either since that's the way the majority of the earth is....some light....some dark.....?

I'm glad you were a beardie breeder, so then you must know what you are talking about, since everyone has been one or is one.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Hello, why did you not answer my questions? Do you not know cause you have never left the lights one 24/7? maybe you need to research.

"Why don't you email them and ask them where they get there info?" Why? cause I don't care what I am doing works, so why change it now? I have left my lights on, I have turned them off, I have left them off. I see little to no difference in reaction to light. What I do see difference in is heat.

We are not talking about wild animals , we are talking about animals kept in our homes are we not? So what they do in the wild should only apply so far. What works or has proven to work in captivity is what you should concern yourself with.

"My question to you, is why have the lights on all the time....what purpose does that serve?" As I said before I have done with, without, and a mix. I adjust to how my animals react and to what they need not to what a book told me they need.

"Do you sleep with all the lights on?" If I fall asleep during the day then yes I guess so. Whether it is commonly done or not doesnt matter. It should only matter to you what works and what doesn't work and why.

"So, my point is having it light all the time is not a common natural state, so why impose that on any living creature?" This gives them a choice they can stay out in the light and be heated, or they can burrow or go under a hide and have dark. Thise lets them be them and decide. Instead of me deciding for them.

"I guess you think mother nature doesn't know what they are doing either since that's the way the majority of the earth is....some light....some dark.....? " If I thought this, then I would think I knew better, therefor I would be telling my animals what to do instead of letting them decide.

Again please, read between the lines. Do not take everything as facts not even from what I say. What works for me may not for you, what fails for me may work for you.

I am in FL. some of my cages are wide open with alot of airflow. Now in other please like say NY in a house. My setups would cause extreme heat loss, humidity loss, and would probly fail. Now if I wrote this in a book and someone took it word for word would it work? No, whether I write it in a book or not doesn't matter. It is only how I interpret it and if I can then apply it in the MY situation.

I didn't need to answer your questions...I never said if it was written it was fact, I said research before discounting as well. And I said do your own research and ask them how many studies they did and where they get their info....I do my own for my sake and my animals sakes. And the rest of the questions were not really questions just comments put in question form so I saw no need to address them.

So speaking of beardies as this is the beardie forum....you've kept beardies in a 24 hour light cycle? I have many dragons and only one or 2 choose to go into their hides at night, so the light would be disruptive and they wouldn't get their cooldown period without the lights off.

Also, since you're in Florida and have open set-ups, you need to state that.....it makes a big difference as you stated yourself.....most people aren't lucky enough to have the climate to do that. I'm in Arizona and I do many things that people in colder states could not, so I relate my indoor experiences generally or specify the situtaion and climate regarding my outdoor ones. If you truly want people to make educated choices you must give all the details so they can in the first place.

I've been keeping herps a long time....and I do my own research and studies, and try and have tried many different things over the years.....so you shouldn't assume I don't. I also keep great records of it all as well.

Since you all are popping over from the monitor forum, you know the requirements for them are different than beardies....and by the way, I keep red ackies and red tegus as well, my brother keeps savanahs and argus's....so I do know the differences as well....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Oh wait did I need permission to come here from the monitor forum??? I am sorry is there a fee to come here or is it OK?

"I didn't need to answer your questions." Well I did not need to answer yours either but I did, why? Cause I can, do you not know how to answer mine?

I did do my own research, did I not say I kept lights on some off some on/off?? Did you not read that part? Thats after all research you know. Or wait do you only count reading what others do research?

"So speaking of beardies as this is the beardie forum....you've kept beardies in a 24 hour light cycle?" Umm yes, among other reptiles.

"I have many dragons and only one or 2 choose to go into their hides at night, so the light would be disruptive and they wouldn't get their cooldown period without the lights off." Haha thats funny, if they are kept in this mannor, as you say would not be able to cool down. Well now I know your fault your not allowing thermoregulation. Lights on lights off is not thermoregulation. Allowing a cool end of the cage and warm end is thermoregulation. By doing this you are then allowing them to decide what they want and when they want it. From what you said you must not agree that mother nature knows best. Otherwise you would let them decide what they need and not let yourself decide.

"Also, since you're in Florida and have open set-ups, you need to state that." Um I believe I just did state that.

"it makes a big difference as you stated yourself." Oh yep see told you I stated that.

"If you truly want people to make educated choices you must give all the details so they can in the first place." I am the one supplying all info. right now am I not? Seems to me others are just saying do this or do that. I have given many reasons, but yet have heard nothing back other then research this so and so said that.

"I've been keeping herps a long time." Good to see your still at it, they are alot of fun. I have been doing this along time myself. Plus animals are not just a hobby they have been my life.

"and I do my own research and studies, and try and have tried many different things over the years.....so you shouldn't assume I don't. I also keep great records of it all as well." I never assumed you did not, I merely was showing you how silly it is to say well this author says this, so go by what they said. They know it all. Noone knows it all, and to think that for one second is way wrong. New things are found out by myself alone daily I still learn and will keep doing so.

"Since you all are popping over from the monitor forum, you know the requirements for them are different than beardies." No way? are you serious? oh man how so? haha come on everyone I would hope realizes this. But one thing you can always count on is they are reptiles. Which means they all thermoregulate.

".and by the way, I keep red ackies and red tegus as well, my brother keeps savanahs and argus's....so I do know the differences as well." Oh so you know it all now too? Oh man please don't think that way. I have kept and bred anything from chameleons to iguanas, from colubrids, to boas, from skinks, to monitors, but I am no expert, professional, or even close to knowing it all.

Another questions I have for you, do you think that light bulb in the cage is the sun? Do you think the reptiles see it as the sun? How does a reptile in a hide or burrow in the wild know when the sun is up if he or she has not seen the light? There is alot more to the sun and the moon then just a light. But a light bulb is a light bulb just a light that throws heat. And yes it is that simple.

Here is some philosophy from myself "I know what I see, not from what others have seen."

Didn't say you needed permission....just a notation is all....are you a little paranoid or something.....was just a comment on your specialty which is different than beardies. In my 10 years experience with beardies, most don't burrow, though many like to dig, I've had few that burrowed, which is a key difference from most monitor species.

Actually you didn't answer my questions....and your original questions weren't directed at me as I had not made those statements to begin with.....and you didn't comment on the lack of reptiles near the points of long day/long night seasons either which you used to prove one of your points. I did answer you by stating that I didn't believe 24 hour light was a natural state for most places, people and animals....and in fact there is a couple of hours of darkness or light in those places that are affected by the long day/nights some of the year. I said how I thought it would affect my dragons who do not choose to burrow at night....you spouted some thermoregulation nonsense which they have little on none at night....it's just cool....they usually don't have that choice in the wild....yes, for a couple of hours they may glean some warmth from a rock or the ground which absorbed it during the day, but they certainly can't bask.

Nope....I don't count of the research of others but I certainly do take well respected peoples into consideration....but with your beardies kept in 24 hour light and heat....I'd like to know their breeding stats, growth rates, sizes and longevity records......and any other info that would back up your statement that it doesn't hurt them and that it's beneficial by letting them choose....do you keep fresh food available(or did you) all the time, so if the chose to eat and be active at midnight they could?

As far as the cool down....my tanks have a cool side, obviously or I wouldn't have a 10 1/2 year old dragon....but at night nature cools off much more than that so they shut down even more......if mine don't chose to go into the cooler hides and stay out, should I be forcing them to by keeping the light and heat on so they must seek refuge from it when they really don't want to? Isn't that imposing your schedule and what you want on them as well. I don't decide, I keep the light schedule that is fairly close to sunset and sunrise so I'm letting nature take it's course as far as light goes. In nature you don't find them out at midnight looking for food, they are diurnal and sleep at night.

Your stated your additional facts of where you live and how your cages are in your reply....not in your original post, so I was just pointing out that should've been done to start with if you want someone to have all the info and choices as you say.

Nope...didn't say I knew it all...said I'm well aware of the differences in the species is all.....as you said you were. I have also kept and bred others as well, but was just adding the ackie/tegu/monitor thing for comparison......

Yes....all reptiles thermoregulate....but some are noctural and others are diurnal and others in between.....so I suppose the nocturnals or semi-nocturals wouldn't be hurt by 24 hour lighting as well, since it's not really the sun, just light and heat....but wait a minute....those are 2 of the things the sun brings us, light and heat....and oh yes UVB....which I use MVB's so they get that to with my light bulbs. Oh yeah, the sun also gives light intensity that proves beneficial to people and other non-nocturnal animals as well....so properly lit tanks provide that as well......

And I know what I see as well....I have long lived animals so I must be doing something right.....

Let me share my philosophy in life.....it seems to fit most everything.....

Moderation is the key to health and well-being in all things.....too much of anything, though in the short term may appear fine and dandy, in the long term it usually has negative side effects......
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

That is why we offer 24/7 basking lights, they choose when they want to use that option or any after all the animals know better than people do what they need or want. They are the experts at their husbandry we are only keepers. Hide spots, drift wood, logs, etc burrows, yes my beardies also make small temporary shallow burrows. Burrows in a usable substrate can allow them very importantly to prevent moisture loss, dirt is the best by far for this.

I just said....most of my dragons don't use the hides/burrows....if the lights were on 24/7 they would be forced to, so then I'm imposing on them.....most dragons do not burrow.....so therefore I would not be giving them a choice! So your choice premise doesn't work for most dragons....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

We offer our lizards to do what they do when they want or need to do it. Its not about you or my personal choices, its about allowing them to do what they can do on their schedule. Any lizard that doesnt hide when it needs to feel secure, needs to conserve moisture, needs to do what lizards do seems wrong to me, but that what choices are all about, letting them be lizards. If you look at any lizard in the wild or captivity with options they will prefer to secrete away from us if given the option of a warm damp dark place to do so. Conserving moisture is important to them, if they drink alot, or soak alot theres a sign somethings wrong and needs fixed because they are limitied on choices. Try it, like I said years and years ago I tried different ways and stick with what works, many others did that same thing. Frank Retes lives in Arizona where many different types of lizards do the same things as all of his monitors, ask him I believe he mentioned breeding beardies many years ago using the same ideas. After all he brought the availablity of many Australian reptiles to us by breeding them snakes, monitors, etc etc.

You are imposing that one them......I will say again, many beardies don't burrow....but that would force them to to get away from the light....so therefore...I say for the 5th or so time, you are imposing light on them.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

They have to bask, or be awake when you set the timer or turn the lights on for them. All healthy reptiles hide for many reasons whether it for security- physical or mental, because that lowers their stress, in the wild or captivity to hide from sources of stress (us, our dogs, cats, kids, or other dragons). They hide to preserve moisture (from lose as its the cause of dehydration) if they cant, which can do many bad things to any reptile. They hide to thermoregulate, as if offered the choice to hide and be warmed up to their preferred temp at the same time they take that choice,its only natural to lower stress from predators, prying eyes, cage mates, etc. Think, whats good for them not convenient for us, to scoop up the dirty cage quicker or to offer choices to them. If we are asleep and they decide to bask and eat mate whatever it may be they can do so much better with privacy and quiet because they feel safer that way, its instinct not a farming thing. If they can hide they can escape the light, if they can walk away from a basking light mounted at 12 inches in a large enough cage its dark on the other side, its dark under a piece of cork bark (and more moist), its dark under a piece of plywood (and more moist), etc etc.
This is not imposing anything on them its offering them the choice to do what they want when they want or can. If a reptile does not hide for these reasons there are big problems with that animal.

Well, I guess my long lived dragons and other animals are just stress free as they don't "hide" very often....I have 2 that choose to sleep in their hide....the rest have varied other spots they like too....all in full view. They seek out different temps in their cages but do so out in the open and rarely retreat to one of the hides which are available in all my tanks...with the exception of an occassional female who is getting away from the male I put her in with....and in those cases I respect her choice and put her back in her tank, where she doesn't hide.

I have dogs, cats, kids and other reptiles.....they don't seem to bother my dragons at all and don't seem to feel the need to hide. If they were stress ridden I would have sick dragons.....and in fact, I do not. Your premise that a healthy dragon should want to hide for moisture, security etc is not founded by my dragons....mine are healthy and long lived and they do not hide much and some never.

You can feel I'm imposing on them....well, heck, we all are, they are captive and not free....we decide when they eat, what they get to eat, when to clean their tanks, who they are paired with for mating, what size of tank they are in, etc, etc, etc....I just happen to use the lighting schedule mother nature provided, so if you want to call that imposing go ahead, I in turn can say you are forcing ones who may not want to hide to do so to get away from the constant light is also imposing on them......
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

They hide, if they dont, they dont live long, no matter what you say or believe your liazrds are afraid of dogs, cats, etc even you. If a lizard lays in the open all of the time in captivity it would die in the wild, thats a sign of an animal that has given up and doesnt care if it dies, because it cant get away from what scares it or stresses it out, it doesnt have the choices to do what comes naturally available to it. I guess a pair of 6 year old beardies a friend of mine and his wife bred for all 6 years and everyone else I know in person with them is wrong for offering a large cage, natural substrate, 24/7 basking lights, a usable temp gradient, hide spots, digable substrate.

I guess then its only right to stick them on a shelf liner alone in separate 10-20 gallon aquariums, with a basking light on a timer for the part of the day its convenient to me, that is what so many here profess is the right way to do it, Ive read many posts here for a few years now and I see why there are few pictures of adult dragons, the same reason so many first time bosc and nile monitor owners never see an adult animal in their care, they dont live long enough or even grow much from the time they get them. After 12 years with monitors learning the hard way (yes its sinks in better), and with some beardies, along with many other lizard species over almost 20 years (except when I was defending our wonderful country and way of life, years ago, or when a motorcyle accident 4 years ago prevented me from caring for a 4 ft blackthroat,I loved that animal even though he hated me, just how many are to people).

Geeze, are you going off the deep end or what....grasping at straws....lol

My dragons tanks all have several hides for them to retreat....they don't choose to do so....they sure do breed well, eat well and are healthy for being soooo stressed out by my keeping methods.

I don't recall anyone saying to put them in 10-20 gallons tanks....I don't recall saying you must use shelf liner....some use shelf liner with fine results, some use bran, some sand, some soil....some use UVB, some just supplement.....

My set light schedule certainly isn't for my convenience, it's my feeling that a natural light schedule following the sunrise and sunset is what's best for my dragons........in the winter, I reset my schedule of activities to feed and care for them appropriately and in the summer get up earlier to feed them sooner when their lights come on at 5 am....

I find it humerous that you don't want anyone to "condemn" you for your keeping methods which you say work for you, but in turn you seem to feel the need to mock and condemn others keeping methods which work for us.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

I dont think you ever will. You are now telling me Im condoning your husbandry and insulting you, jeesz, wake up and quit adding words to what I say.
Im telling you how to improve your husbandry for your animals, because simply put a lizard is a lizard is a lizard and a lizard is not a chicken, you get what Im saying? Yes they can adapt to coditions of living out of soil (something natural thats useful), and they can adapt to cooling down at night, but consider this, cooling down at night and not having the ability to bask and digest properly without prying eyes can reduce growth, reduced digestive activity (which can lead to impactions), etc. Yes they can adapt to a shorter period of heat per day but why not offer them something advantageous to them.
Yes, theres a reason for a temp drop every day for reptiles in captivity, to reduce food intake. They eat less, they digest less, they burn less, and use less energy, so you could save money on food in some cases (animals that dont hide like they should part of the day), you could make cages smaller (the need for a cool end or good temp gradient is reduced). I noted something you said in a post about them not being as heavy with lights on longer, yes if they are fat or obese they will lose the extra weight (which can be dangerous to them, hepatic lipidosis- occurs when an obese reptile mobilizes fat reserves to use them). Its a proven fact that obese reptiles (or any animal) have reduced reproduction (mainly males). With monitors reproductive females are fed almost twice as much becuse they make use of it, where as males gain too much weight if not regulated some when they are adults in captivity.
Well, Ive tryed to make suggestions, if you choose not to try them thats your choice but dont tell me its wrong, and theres nothing new about using what Ive mentioned, monitor keepers and yes the actual breeders have been doing it for 15 years or more. Some new it worked long before that.

I didn't say anything about them losing weight....must have been someone else...

Neither here no there....you think they would be improvements in my husbandry, and I feel that they wouldn't...

So once again....I fully understand what you say, just don't agree....which is my right.

I don't do the light thing to cut my food bill either....and the only way that would make a difference is if you're putting fresh food in round the clock, which I doubt you are getting up every couple of hours to do. Food certainly shouldn't be left in the tanks for longer than a couple of hours without replacing or you can have spoilage problems, and I'm certainly not going to leave live feeders in my tanks to munch on my reptiles when they've run out of what they want to eat. Any more than I'd leave live mice in any of my cages of ackies, snakes or tegus to cause bodily harm to my them.

Anyway...once again...I hear you and understand you, but simply don't agree....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Goodluck with this one man, I tried to help. But some people just refuse to listen and it is not worth the breath.

Just use what works for you. If it is leaving the lights on go for it, if it is no lights go for it, if it is part lights part no lights, go for it.

I tried to show the reasons why any of these may or may not work. But it seems my words are falling on deaf ears. I don't have the time to put up shop and teach a class.

Just because I don't agree....and I have the right to....doesn't make me deaf....in my eyes and ears you haven't shown me one good reason to do what you say......

Still don't know how old your animals are....clutch and hatch rates etc.....I've shared the longevity of mine with my methods freely.....

I don't back down when someone keeps repeating themself over and over but shows no studies, no proof, no statistics....I guess we're just to take your word for it, though you said not to take the published "experts" word for it....

I've told you that my dragons don't burrow for the most part 2 out of 32 adults....show 24/7 light would impose my wants on them....you never addressed this.....

You are not letting them choose....you are imposing you idea of what it should be....funny nature must do the light cylce for a reason....but maybe the whole world should be lit 24/7 and we could all choose to burrow or come out in it.....mother nature must be wrong.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

I know I dont have to back down, I am not backing down. I just am done wasting my time. I have better things to do then argue with you all day long. I can't change your mind so why try?

"Still don't know how old your animals are." Thats funny did you not read my post? I clearly said they lived 10 years, some longer some shorter.

I have given you everything you needed. If you must read it over and over it is there. It is not my fault you do not understand it. Posting when my beardie shed its skin, ate , drank etc. has nothing to do with this. We are talking how 24/7 lights effect them and what it does, that is all. This is not a carsheet from my way of keeping reptiles. I never looked at it that way anyways. instead I am offering you what 24/7 does, what it can offer, etc. as I thought this thread was about the 24/7 lights not about my animals.

"I've told you that my dragons don't burrow for the most part 2 out of 32 adults....show 24/7 light would impose my wants on them....you never addressed this....." I talked about it plenty did you not read my post below? Please re-read it over and over again.

"You are not letting them choose....you are imposing you idea of what it should be." Again I already answered this so please re-read my post. Until you understand how leaving a light on in a cage they can decide to walk away or come back, and by shutting off the light they can no longer come back if they want to. Unless you taught yours how to walk out and flip on the light switch?

".funny nature must do the light cylce for a reason." Again nature is nature, nature is not a reptile in a cage no matter what you do to that cage it is still a cage.

".but maybe the whole world should be lit 24/7 and we could all choose to burrow or come out in it." Now thats silly your only using bits and pieces of what I say. They can do more than just burrow to get out of the light. And please keep this about reptiles as it does not fit in with other animals.

".mother nature must be wrong" Where the heck did I say this at? Man you really are not understanding a word I say. Mother nature does what she does in nature and she does it well. But my cages are not nature.

Again this is not about you or about me, about what we do. This is about the question at hand 24/7 is bad and harmful. I only used mine were fine it this setup as an example to show it had no ill effects as was claimed. Other then that I gave you plenty of info. on how it works for them.

Now on the other hand you have given me didly on how it effects them, and can kill them. You just keep spatting mother nature doesn't do it so why should I? That is not an answer, that is a cop out. Anyone can tell me the sunsets and then rises. But only someone that is experienced can tell me why and how that works to benefit reptiles. You have done nothing of the sort.

Again have fun with your reptiles, I am glad they are doing good for you. You obviously have had good success with keeping them in the manner you describe. I am not going to say thats a bad thing, I am only showing that 24/7 is not going to kill off your reptiles, and how silly it is to think that. if your getting anything else from my posts it is purely your poor interpretation of it.

Have a nice day

I always have a nice day....I did not say it kills them, I said show me the benefit and you still didn't....you fill your not imposing on them in your way....I say you are.....

I have no problem with agreeing to disagree...I do however have a problem when someone can't be respectful and adult about it.....and presumes someone isn't listening, when they just don't agree....I could say the same about you but that's not how I operate.....

I'm sorry I've wasted your time for you....was not my intention....I feel no discussion is a waste of time as it may aid others in their decisions.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

Well I think your imposing on them, so there ya have it. We don't agree plain and simple.

I don't know why you took it so hurtful when I said your not listening to me, but you obviously did. It is ok really. it is your decision in the long run not mine. I cannot make you do this or that.

But I can see all of this is getting out of context and out of hand. That is why I said I would be done with this debate. Nothing against you or your beliefs. It is not like that at all.

Well....they are deleting these posts right and left...

I didn't take it hurtfully...don't know you, so you can't hurt me.....I don't like when people presume someone isn't listening because they don't agree.....the 2 don't necessarily go together.....

We agree to disagree on this one.....
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com

I went to read your last post and it was gone.

I agree with you it is a good idea to disagree this time. As this debate is getting out of hand for some. When that many posts get deleted then it is probly time to move on.

Again thanks for the talk. Hope I did not offend anyone, I did not come here to do that.

Those people who publish studies, and write books, etc which was figured out a long time ago when referenced to monitors, the majority know absolutely squat about keeping the animals in captivity, because they either dont, or they study them for 1-6 months in one year of a few animals lives in a small population, then they say "this is how it is, the bible of keeping (fill in any species)". There are some who have much better observation skills, and study them for longer times and many more animals, and many more species, and some of those keep them study them and breed them in captivity, and picked what conditions and tools allow a lizard to flourish, grow fast and big, breed younger, and produce many many more offspring than whats ever possible in the natural world. I tried the timer on off, light cycle, higher wattage heat bulbs, and non digable substrate many years ago on beardies and monitors (Im not proud of it, waste of some beautiful animals because I listened to the "experts" but I learned "experts" that write books on lizard care usually are authors trying to make cash not to help you or your animals out, usually they dont have any themselves or they dont live long on their suggested care.
If whatever works for you works, then by all means do so, but dont ever tell someone that understands what a lizard is and does, that allows them to be a lizard by offering them choices, that those people are wrong, because if you are turning a lizard into a chicken you are wrong, apples to oranges. I had the same discussions as you and veiw points years ago until I understood what a lizard is and what is good for them, they dont have to burrow, but they need to hide. I also thought at one time that convenient paper was better than dirt until I tried it and then saw what all of the talk was about, after keeping a lizard on dirt youll never go back to anything else, because you get to see what a lizard really is.

everything published, but if it comes from a well respected source, I take it into consideration, doing my own research to check it out....

I guess you also missed a couple of posts back that I'm agreeing to disagree on this subject....as we are at an impass and to banter further is rather pointless....I think all points of view have been offered, and though, they aren't the same, that's ok.......I have no other new input on the issue and to rehash it over and over seems silly to me......but you feel free to do what you feel you need to do, I'm not ignoring or being "anything", just don't have any more to offer on this subject.
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Tracey
Tracey's Beardies
www.beardiecrazy.com