Reptile & Amphibian Forums

np

np

It is disadvantageous for a microorganism to wipe out an entire population (even if it seems that way), so why not breed a crypto resistant lgecko? Don't depend on the biochemists to find a vaccine I would pay serious money for that offspring. In fact I DEMAND you all to start RIGHT NOW!!!! If one of mine makes it (asssuming it is crypto) I should breed her.

You cant breed a crypto-resistant leo when all of them die from it.
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Josh
My Email

I do hope one of yours is the first to make it. However, crypto is incurable. It would be irresponsible to breed her because:

A. The extra stress of breeding could do her in. Also, babies might have crypto, and they probably would not survive, and no one would want to buy crypto infected animals.

B. To breed her, you would have to expose a male to crypto, which would likely/certainly kill him.

>>I do hope one of yours is the first to make it. However, crypto is incurable. It would be irresponsible to breed her because:
>>
>>A. The extra stress of breeding could do her in. Also, babies might have crypto, and they probably would not survive, and no one would want to buy crypto infected animals.
>>
>>B. To breed her, you would have to expose a male to crypto, which would likely/certainly kill him.
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Josh
My Email

Crypto being caused by a parasite there body does not really have the capabilities of fighting it too much. It is such a strong parasite too that in fact anything that will kill it would kill your leo. I virus is easier because it can be fought on a micro scale via antibiotics or immune buildup.

Granted the parasite develops rapidly, only needs the one host and creates oocysts can live ~18months in damp/wet enviro., resists chlorine decamination (meaning BAKING/not bleach is best to kill crypto), highly contageous, and lives intracellularly (inside the cell cytoplasm)
It does not infect immune cells and has a high number of antigens (things the immune system can attack) on the surface.
What would need to take place to create a resistant gecko is a gene mutation that influences resistance to parasites (esp. the gut lymphoid tissue/ gut intraepithelial lymphocytes or the equivalent in reptiles)
A naturally occuring resistance happened with malaria (slightly similar to crypto) in humans and considering malaria is I think the leading cause of death in humans- It can definitely happen naturally and be passed on to offspring/ We just have not seen it yet.

PLEASE CORRECT ME IF I HAVE MADE A MISTAKE(I often do) or wish to argue- I love to argue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think I am blinded by hope. But I was thinking if I could find a male who was also exposed the same as her (I would never expose another animal) and lived. Starlings right, they don't know the exact mode of transmission yet, I would have to confirm that the germ line cells were not able to become infected (although the infection seems to be localized in the small intestines in most so....?). A tentative confirmation would be if you guys knew anyone who gave eggs away, learned the mother was infected and the babies became infected even when they were never exposed (not exactly scientific). I imagine it is harder for babies to become infected prenatal because of the egg shell vs. mammals or during delivery also. I would also have to make sure the crypto did not deposit on the eggshell too. anything else you guys??????????? I am just thinking here

After reading my post above I guess it sounds kinda dumb and confusing. I'll give it another shot. I believe the only way for it to happen would be for the infected creature to catch the crypto and live through it making itself immune. It would have to be transfered to the babies almost on a genetic scale. Chances are any that survive the disease would be a carrier and not really immune to the point where it's body itself produced anti-bodies to defeat and destroy the parasite. If you did find one that had produced anti-bodies to defeat the disease you could take blood from that animal and break it down to try to create antibiotics. Another way to do it would be to take a severly weak form of the disease and inject it to the subject and let it's immune system develop a resistance to it and they process a antibiotic from that. I am sure that some big name scientific people have already tried all that though. I bet they want to be the first to discover the vaccine. Big bucks rollin for that one! Any eggs would more than likely contract it just as easy as not because they soak a majority of everything that gets on them into the shell. Blah Blah Blah okay I'll shut up now LOL.

You are correct.. I know spit about reptile immune systems but human immunity I studied...Some of the human immune system is dictated by CHANCE creation of set sequences of antibody recognition arms (that are actually Not dictated directly by our parents DNA/ 1 of only system in our bodies to do this) after we are born and our thymus is being developed until puberty and then by the environment we live in- what we are exposed to. But a mutation in the host genes that controls parasite immunity can and will be passed on to offspring. Happens in alot of cases.

Anyone know if this is similar in reptiles??????????????????
(YAH... I LOVE BEING ABLE TO DISCUSS THIS WITH SOMEONE)
PLEASE CORRECT ME ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reptiles have a cloaca, which means the same opening is used for elimination and sex/laying eggs. Gecko eggs have a permeable barrier, neccessary for the egg to absorb mositure and swell as the egg develops. Crypto is so contagious it can be spread by air. One theory I have heard on this is that feces drying up and pathogens becoming airborne that way, but considering that in immunosupressed humans crypto oocysts have been found in the RESPIRATORY tract, and crypto in leopard geckos affects them like immunosuppressed humans...well I wouldn't be suprised if it gets into their respiratory systems as well. I think it highly unlikley that eggs would not become infected, passing though the prime conduit of infection...

However...while crypto is so far as I know always fatal in leopard geckos it is not fatal in all animals, not even in all reptiles. There are many kinds of crypto, it is not just one organism. There are types that affect humans, dogs, snakes...And some types of crypto that orginated in one species can cross species, though generally causing less severe symptoms in non-native species. For example. Cryptoporidium Parvum and Cryptoporidium Felis can affect humans. Crypto is generally not fatal in humans unless the individual is immunosuppressed. In that way, Crypto in humans is more analgous to coccidia in reptiles (actually, crypto is a form of coccidia), it can be managed as long as the infected animal is in good health otherwise. Which is why geckos can have coccidia for a long time, and it won't become apparent or obvious until they get something else, even something as innoculous as worms, which puts stress on their immune system and allows the parasite to multiply.

Perhaps a gecko infected with crypto that survives may have another species of crypto that is less lethal in geckos? Or perhaps genetic resistance may be possible? Even if that were possible, I don't think it would be desirable. One problem with that is those with genetic resistance would act as carriers, which is a scary thought...imagine, and animal that seems fine even after 3 months of quarantine, yet carries an organism pretty much guaranteed to wip out entire colonies when introduced...or perhaps even via the air during quarantine. Very scary.

Here is a link I think will interest you, it provides great depth on the biology of crypto, and has references as well.

http://www.ksu.edu/parasitology/

It is very possible my geckos have a different form of crypto (If that is EVEN what they have). And that is why one seems to be fine (56g after living a year around it) and is actually not at all resistant to a stronger form. Or she will show symptoms tomorrow and rapidly die (never know). It will be years before I am confident she beats it. I thought that nonimmunecompromised humans, after they recieve the infection, it can be fully cleared from the body after 10-25days (because it does not infect the immune system and is highly antigenic so does not even hide well AT ALL). I don't know if a reptile has the capacity to clear the infection fully and after what period of time. But if it does, it should be no problem to an egg (as long as the environment is free also of any crypto). I thuoght about the possibility of just having a partially resistant gecko who could be a typhoid mary to other geckos and either live or die later, and that is highly possible and does happen (hense the name typhoid mary). But if you breed eggs yourself and know they have not come into contact with crypto then if your collection is infected at least that gecko will live (problem if you sell though). REMEMBER I KNOW LITTLE ABOUT REPTILES

Did you vet say it was crypto and not coccidia? Humans may be able to clear crypto, but everything I have read says leopard geckos, once infected with coccidians (including crypto) will always be carriers, even in the case of coccidia when the animal is stabilized.

And acid fast stain is the right one, but coccidia has oocysts too...

I am really suprised Crypto is spread by air. I thought that the organism lived in wet/aquatic environments and that dryingout/ high temperatures killed the oocysts (some fungal spores can resist even autoclaveing [really high temp.] and they can become dried and airborn or like anthrax) Maybe they become an aerosol in water droplets???
For this hypothetical resistant gecko I would imagine that it
would be a carrier even past quarantine time and like evolution, alot of animals would die until the best lives (maybe like reptiles now control other coccidia). Is there any reptile that can clear a crypto/coccidia infection??? Or should I say in the gregarines because scientists are saying that crypto is more closely related to gregarines than to coccidians. That would mean there could be a different means of resistance vs. other coccidia???? And other animals seems to be able to do it with crypto that is encouraging. I am not sure if other animals clear coccidia infections?

ive herd that there was a gecko
that responded to treatments for crypto and lived,
i dont remember where i heard this tho, but if the gex did it must have been expensive treatment.
just a thought

ashley