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I'm sorry but I can't see how some of these people can sleep at night. I mean almost $400 shipped for adult female BP's is freaking nutz in my opinion!!! Do people really pay that?? If so, I've got 62 for sale that should go next year for sure!!!! I understand that some of the co-dominant/dominant traits as well the higher dollar morphs have increased the demand for "ready to go" females but that is just too sick. I still see visibly healthy, mostly flawless LTC animals at every show I attend available for under $100 and it's not rare to see them for 1/2 that (by show patrons looking to sell/trade) so this is only my 2 cents but man, that's pretty sad. Am I jumping the gun here?? Are they really worth that??? It just seems that since BP's are HOT right now some are taking total advantage of that and looking for a sucker...FACT: In the last 2 months I've purchased THREE adult females - super clean - all over 1,400 grams for a grand total of $110 for ALL THREE not each. Now I know that's a very good deal but still...do the math...opinions greatly appreciated.

but there will always be a long list of people who have $$ burning a hole in their pockets, but not the patience to do the research! These are the same people that get bored with their pets after a year, and give them to a reptile rescue, or sell them back to a pet store for $20! On the other hand, there will always be those opportunistic folks who will be willing to take advantage of the people who don't do their research! Forget the Golden Rule. These days it is more like, "Do unto them until they know better!"

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"I am a cop, and you will respect my authoritae!"-Cartman

Very well said. I usually try not "vent" on any of the forums, and my intentions were not to offend anyone buying or selling, but in my humble opinion I think it wrong. I know I couldn't do business that way. Just think for every 1 or 2 people that may consider buying an animal well over "market" value there is 1,000 that see it and laugh to themselves, making a mental note of the seller(s) on their "never buy from that guy" list. Well, some will say "more power to them" and call it common business practice - I call it temporary BP (Ball Python) BS (Bull****) and wouldn't buy as much as a waterbowl off of any of 'em.

Let me ask you a simple question. If you have a pair of pastels, and the female unexpectedly dies a month before you were going to breed them, and you can get a normal female ready to breed to your male pastel, would you pay $300 or $400 for that female. I would if it was CB, advertised as CB and actually a CB animal. Do the math. $400 for a normale breedable female, bred to your pastel male, you get 8 eggs, 4 pastels, 2 male and 2 female pastels, there is $6000 you made by spending $400.

Dave

Makes sense to me. Where I have a problem in the ads is normals advertised as FAKE morphs, for morph prices.

Would you put this boy with a $50 wc female?

Nice Pastel!! Yes, I agree with the whole wannabe morph thing going on as well, and in the situation you described (I'd say rare) I still wouldn't consider spending 4 times the amount of money I KNOW I could buy them for at any given moment. Patience is a virtue, and please...if you're ever in that situation, email me.

Even in your rare situation, I would NEVER pay $400 for a normal CBB ball. Thats just ridicualous. At THE MOST a normal CBB female should go for is 125-150$. We're talking ball pythons, not green tree pythons.

Why would you want to spend $300-$400 for a c/b b/p to breed with a pastel but pass up a w/c LTC $50 female thats just as healthy,eating (without assistance),parasite free,and mite free?Theres abosolutely no difference between the 2 with the exception of being w/c.Other than that the c/b is no better in characteristics than the w/c,except in your eyes.If they are both normals and havent been bred then i ask whats the difference? Regards Bill McLeod

I'd worry about if the WC female had really been deparasited or carried any other diseases. A friend of mine took a long time to work through all the nasties in a group of LTC females with a top reptile vet years ago. Maybe they have better meds now but I know it took him several tries to get rid of all the tapeworms.

Also, a vet student friend of mine was telling me about snake venereal diseases. I forget the details but there where at least two known. In one case it was self-limiting in one sex but the other had it forever or something like that. Probably wouldn't have any trouble with a LTC but I guess if you had a high dollar male you would want to be pretty careful.

Also, with the unknown of how common sperm retention is (probably not very but do we really know?) it would be another plus to have a virgin if possible. Still probably not worth the big bucks but worth a little something extra to have captive hatched or captive bred over LTC.

What about a LTC from someone reputable like the parkers (if they had one) or someone of that stature.Any more you really dont know if they are c/b or not so again if its a LTC thats been de-everything and a virgin to boot,whats the difference?If by chance i had the money to shell out for a pastel then surely i could cough up enough to cover something else high dollar to go with it instead of a normal.I have 4 full grown b/ps now that arent from reputable breeders and i have no idea if they are truly c/b but within the time i've had them they havent had a single problem.The oldest female i've had for 6 years now and have yet had to take her to the vet for even an RI.In fact most of my snakes and other animals have came from around my area.A few i have gotten from Ben Siegel as well as a couple others.I would be willing to breed any of them to a high dollar anything.So to me if they are truly healthy and free of everything then there is no difference between them except for preference but thats about it. Regards Bill McLeod

When i die,bury me face down so the whole world can kiss my a$$

Do you have any morph animals, have you spent $3,000 or even $30,000 on one Ball Python? If not, you may not understand, but think about it this way, if you owned a Ferrari, would you take it to the Ferrari specialist for a tune up, or take it to Bob's Weeze Gunna Fix Ur Car Garage, Speshilizing in Yugos? You have a high dollar item, do not get cheap, with the car or the snake.

Dave

On a pastel i would think that i could afford to buy something along the lines of say an albino or another pastel instead of a $400 normal.Normals should be sold rather more reasonable than a het morph dont you think.I myself wouldnt spend $3000-$30,000 for a snake of any kind unless it was made of pure gold.I could think of alllooootttt more reasonably priced items that i could actually use for something other than a pet.Hell with all the animals that i have together doesnt come close to $3000.Maybe $2000 but thats about it.Now if i was to throw in the wife then we're talking money. Regards Bill McLeod

To spend for a ferrari then i would learn how to work on it real quick because from what i've learned about specialist mechanics is the fact that they specialize in one thing and one thing only,thats ripping people off.By the time they get through tinkering to fix one little job the next thing you know you have to shell out $1000s more hard earned bucks for parts that originally wasnt broke.Specialists are crooks with a license,nothing more but a whole lot less. Regards Bill McLeod

I would pay it! There not just pets, Yes, I do treat my snakes as pets and spoil the heck out of them as much as I can (hard to spoil a snake, expecially when you have tons!) But to look at (for example a pied or albino) everyday is worth $3,000-$30,000 to me! There AMAZING animals! And besides the value is so much because in a few years time you can by far pay for the animal by breeding and selling the babies and make a nice profit! I personally don't know anyone who would dish out $20,000 for a pied to just have it as a pet.

this

You're right. I picked up a LTC that I was told was "eating like a horse" and parasite free. Guess what? Tested positive for parasites and did not eat. After 6 months of trying everything except hamsters, I tried hamsters - loved em, but damn expensive. I finally got her over to live mice. But it was an 18 month investment in time I did not want or need. Funny thing though, she's the first this year to produce.

Just a comment on price. Price is relative and elastic (look for info on Price Elasticity). It will fluctuate hi and low and does not make the price (always) wrong. Supply and demand play a large part. Some people are still breeding and these "ready-to-breed" females are worth more - especially to someone who is breeding a morph. What I find funny is the people who think all these snakes should be (basically) free. Do the math:

Feeding for a normal female through the year: $150 (low for an adult) for food
Time: ?
Vet/health medical: $50 (mine are retested every year)
Caging

If you just figure $200 you would have to sell 6 babies at $33 each. Is it worth it? If you do it strictly for fun yes. But there are some out there who feel they should be $10 each just because they can pick up an import for that. At any rate this isn't a new topic - topics like this have been surfacing on this forum for more than 3 or 4 years. Have fun!!
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Jay A. Martin

Man, obviously I live in another world that some of you. Thank God. I've been in this business 15 years, I've maintained a collection of 800 animals. I know the difference between a freshly WC animal and a LTC. I wasn't even comparing the two in this thread. I'm guessing less than 5% of people in this hobby would pay $400 for a breedable female, seems too high to me but hey, that's just me. Another thing, what is this whole CB/CH/CBB/ and WC thing??

Here's how I see it with an estimated % of each, let's compare notes:

CB= Captive Born, meaning born in captivity, either in Africa or the USA...questionable origin playable by breeders/sellers.
60%

CH= Hatched in captivity, most likely from wild caugh gravid females in the field.
30%

CBB= Parents were bred together in captivity and the CBB animals were actual offspring thereof, thus bred and born in captivity.
10%

Maybe my numbers are off for some of you, but after speaking with people that have spent a considerable amount of time in Africa, on farms, gathering data, I'd say those numbers are fair.

Like I said, I agree w/ almost everyone's points and views expressed so far. To each his/her own, but where I come from that dollar amount is completely unfeasable, to buy or sell at.
Of course I don't have a male Spider either, but if I did, I'd breed him to a few of my hand-picked CB, CH, and CBB animals I've obtained over the past few years ALL in 100% excellent health, feeding perfectly, zero problem animals, ALL WAY WAY WAY above average in appearance/contrast/coloration/pattern and not one cost me more than $120.00 Again, that's where I'm at, not sure about all of the one's that see this as a reasonable amount of money too spend on a breedable female, like I said...you want to pay that much, I'll sell you all of mine, and double your money back if you're not 110% satisfied with their condition and appearance (weight included) I'll be checking my email...

>>collection of 800 animals. I know the difference between a freshly WC animal and a LTC. I wasn't even comparing the two in

Please tell us how you know this. I have been dealing with BPs for about 13 years and reptiles for about 25 years. Unless there are external parasites, I can't possibly see how you can tell the difference.

>>this thread. I'm guessing less than 5% of people in this hobby would pay $400 for a breedable female, seems too high to me but

That may be. But, as pointed out, if she was ready and I had a Pied, Axanthic or some other high-dollar morph needing a female to breed "now", I might consider it. My personal opinion, I've seen them go for around $250 in the "off-season". $400 now is not unreasonable and certainly not "crazy". You might be able to pickup a smaller female for less - 1000 grams for $150 but then you have to worry about issues such as putting on weight. I picked up a female from one of the top 5 breeders. I got this female in 06/01 at 1900 grams. At 06/03 (two years later), she weighs 2074. She is a royal PITA and eats when she wants and how she wants. I have invested over $400 alone in time and she has yet to produce.

>>hey, that's just me. Another thing, what is this whole CB/CH/CBB/ and WC thing??

>>Here's how I see it with an estimated % of each, let's compare notes:

CB= Captive Born, meaning born in captivity, either in Africa or the USA...questionable origin playable by breeders/sellers.
60%

CB/CH are the same thing to me. Really, what's the difference between hatch and born?? 95%

CBB Captive BRED/BORN - Few and far between. You do this for fun or you breed morphs to fund other projects. 5%

>>Maybe my numbers are off for some of you, but after speaking with people that have spent a considerable amount of time in Africa, on farms, gathering data, I'd say those numbers are fair.

Just look at the import stats - your numbers can't be too far off.

>>Like I said, I agree w/ almost everyone's points and views expressed so far. To each his/her own, but where I come from that dollar amount is completely unfeasable, to buy or sell at.

It's regional economics - just like anything else.

>>ou want to pay that much, I'll sell you all of mine, and double your money back if you're not 110% satisfied with their condition and appearance (weight included) I'll be checking my email...

Got any in the 2000gram area??
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Jay A. Martin

Nicely said, and you have some very valid points. As far as the "How can I tell??" part of your post...you answered your question. What I meant was I can tell a well kept, clean animal, with good weight, good tongue response, etc...if I see an animal w/ ticks/mites/loose skin/bad shed/etc, I know it's a fresh import. I only made that statement because it semed the CB/WC arguement was about to take place and I didn't want it to go there. I was refering to clean, feeding, parasite free animals in my original post. Trust me, I had no intentions of saying the animal wasn't worth it (investment wise) I was just alittle mind blown that they can sell for that. Your purchase from a LARGE name for a LARGE female that's been in their care...I'd say you didn't get hurt one bit.

I've read alot of very good points by various users, and I take all of them seriously, w/ an open mind. I see it from many angles now and I guess I'm just one of the few "lucky" guys that have never bought or sold one for near that much.

The 2000 g females...not for sale, LOL!! Anyway the one I saw posted for that kind of money was under 1,400 grams if I remember correctly.

Just wanted to make one thing clear, we are talking adult, breedable ball python female, not a 99 gram baby. I purchased my CB normal females for around $100 each, and was happy to pay it considering my ball collection value is in the neighborhood of a nice new Mercedes. Pretty small to some, but alot of money and time and effort to me, and would not risk it to save a few bucks. One mite infestation with a $50 ball and you would gladly pay a little more for a nice CB. Now, the person selling this ball for $400 may be looking for that one or one hundred people who have a nice morph male and NEED a CB female for it. I think it is a normal, advertised as a normal, and if the weight is close, and someone buys it, they know what they are getting. Not like buying a $500 ghostish ball and getting a normal.

Could not even imagine these two with mites

Dave

I can understand the point about the mites but just because they are c/b doesnt mean they are in perfect health,parasites (internal),mites (yes it does happen,not often but it does).True you have a probable better chance of them being healthy but then we are talking about internet sales and unless you know who and what you are getting then there is that slim chance.You probably buy from reputable breeders but lets say for instance that someone was advertising an albino c/b b/p for $1000 (not a real price,made up) and guaranteed it to be mite/parasite free,and in great health and weighed 1060 grams.Would you take a chance at the overwhelming offer (doing your background check of course) or would you pass it up because it was too cheap? Regards Bill McLeod

Why do you care so much?

People buy what people want to buy. If the going rate for animals is higher, then is that not a good thing? If you see the same animals around for less, well bully for you.

If people have a spider male and no females and they buy 10 @ $400 (= $4,000) and 6 go with 6 eggs each, that's 18 spiders. $15,000 each and there is $270,000. You think they are crying about $400 female normals? You know another industry other than drugs or money-laundering where you can turn $19,000 (spider 10 normals) into $270,000 (1,400% return)??

I think not.

But really, in the grand scheme of life, why does it really bother you that people you don't even know or have affinity to buy normal females for more than your market value. I'm just curious.

I think that most people have an aversion to people getting scammed. If someone knows that they are paying $400 for something they could find for $100 or less, and they choose to pay $400, ok. That is an informed choice.
I would guess that someone who has obtained a Spider, or some other morph, has good connections and/or $$ to spend on the project. I have a hard time believing that someone who is well connected and knowlegable enough to be breeding morphs would pay $400 for normals, BUT...there is always an exception! I think the original post was directed toward those who are trying to make a quick buck at the expense of someone who is new to the hobby, or otherwise uninformed. Scamming newbies is bad PR for the hobby!
Does anyone here who breeds morphs shop for BP's on the classifieds? I guess it is my opinion that the longer one is in this business, the more connections one makes, and probably doesn't need to shop the classifieds. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows?!
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"I am a cop, and you will respect my authoritae!"-Cartman

The fact is that noone is getting scammed. Assuming that the seller is telling the truth and this is a captive bred animal, free of parasites and problems generally associated with wild caught adults. There would be no need for gerbils or other methods to get this adult CB Ball to eat. Since everyone knows so much about the market and what is going on, can you guys start dropping me emails of all these adult CB females that are ready to breed. Let me know who produced them, and what they have been eating and I will buy them. Since the average price (according to some of you) is $100 for a CB breedable female in the range of 1500 grams, I will give you an extra $40. This could be lucrative for you. I think the bigger scam is people selling Wild Caught adults as CB or LTC when they havent been in the country for even a year.
As far as the classifieds go, I am in no way really considered a breeder, although I have 1 clutch of hopeful Pastel eggs in the incubator, but I check the classifieds everyday. I think alot of the breeders do. I could be wrong.
Thanks, Tom Baker

I think your points are very valid. You are 100% correct in your statement that no one is getting scammed and I apologize because I can see now how some could take it that way. The subject should have read "Do people really pay that much and think it's a reasonable price considering the circumstances" (ie: HOT BP market, breedable adult female, etc...) and it seems some of our opinions vary. I'm at lunch...I'll be back w/ more,LOL!!

I agree with you now! And to answer your quesion, yes, people pay that much and more! don't think of them as single animals, pets or whatever. Think of it as an investment. Even if I had just a Pastel to breed with it, 1 $400 female could yield 6 eggs (3 pastels) for about $4,000. So I just made 1000% of my investment? That is nuts.

Adult proven female Balls should be going for $1,000. If you think about it in terms of an investment, they are a STEAL right now at $400. Its not about what they are worth as babies or as crappy WC adults. Think of the snake's value as what is worth to the seller to actually have to give it up. For me, to give up a breeder female normal, well that's about $6,000 every year I have her. So why would I sell her for anything less?

You're right when you look at it from that perspective. That's what's crazy about the male Pastel being less $$ than the female!! I mean, for the money I'd rather buy a 3-4 males breed them to my normal females and produce larger #'s than originally investing in a pair (going for Supers) so in theory the males are a more valuable asset!! But they're cheaper, LOL!! Gotta love it!! I really didn't mean to get any arguements started or anything, I was really just blown away that a $400 price tag on a breedable female was feasable. I guess if some of us look at it from these perspectives, they are or should be. Luckily for me, I haven't paid nearly that much for one.

We're discussing.

And a damn good discussion at that. Thanks for starting it!

www.jefffavelle.com

I really like the way this one turned out. Some very valid points were made, I was afraid a flame war would break out but everyone behaved themselves like I had hoped. My hat goes off to the herp community & the kingsnake faithfuls!! The forums have served their purpose once again!! By the way, I checked out your site Jeff, and you've got some screaming Carpets!! A KILLER Pastel as well!! Trade you FOUR ready to breed adult females for it, LOL!!! Seriously though, it has been a pleasure "discussing" the BP thing with you!! Keep in touch.

Ha ha, but if I trade you the Pastel, what am I going to breed the female BP's with? LOL!

Cheers buddy.

While we are all talking about a $400 normal, anyone see the $6000 Cinamon Pastels for sale?????

Dave

I completely disagree. To even argue the topic you have to assume that the buyer is not lieing about it being captive bred. If a captive bred baby goes for $75 to $100 what should an adult breedable female go for? Maybe you lucked in to 3 adult females for $110 and that would be great, but I bet 9 times out of 10, adult females at that price are not healthy and have probably not been in the country long. Maybe that is a chance you dont mind taking, but thats your opinion... If this snake is truly advertised from an honest person, I dont see why he would have any problem getting rid of it at that price. If you cant do the math then maybe it would appear to be a problem, but if you take out the calculator, you can see how it can be very lucrative to jump into a breedable female. And to talk about spending on another morph female for that kind of money is ridiculous. Tell me which morph or het female are you going to get in the $400 price range that is not under 100 grams if you can even find one, maybe a het for ghost from an unproven line. How is that helping your immediate chances at breeding?
Thanks, Tom Baker

This thread wouldn't be here if I thought otherwise and it looks like we have a split decision. Tell you what, I'm sure more people will be adding their thoughts. I'll be thinking about some of your replies, and I will post later today (after work)

Supply and Demand is why adult female, clean, large, 6-12 eggers, are 400.00ea Hell you can breed it to a het piebald or piebald and produce over 10,000 in snakes off one female. Plus doesnt amtter if the animals is LTC..........alot of LTC balls dont breed period. I bought seven ltc that ate in front of me before I bought them, had proofthey were 3 year LTC and they never bred ecxcept for one and she laid 3 eggs. She was easily a ten egg layer. Same male bred to C.B.B. Females and they threw incredible clutches. Not saying you may not get that from a ltc but your chances are surely reduced no doubt about it. This year I have sold to breeders here in Miami large cb female balls from customers of mine and collection buyouts for 350.00ea ALL DAY LONG. They cant get enough of them, I wisdh I could find more. A true c.b. female ball ADULT is truly worth about 300-400.00ea any time of day.
Its all in the supply and demand...........there is HUGE demand, present not just on kingsnake, but at shows, etc, for large feeding c.b.b. adult female balls, and the supply is extremely short...............

I'm seeing it from many angles here, that's why I started the thread I guess. I'm open minded, and openly welcome "information" from my fellow herpers, so I'm satisfied that in theory these animals are worth every penny, I'm just lucky enough not to have to pay that for them, LOL!! Thanks for evryone's input!!!

I currently have 4 normal adult ball pythons in my collection which were absolutly free. Two of them were adopted from my herp society and two were given to me by friends who couldn't take care of them any more. So using your logic from my point of view, you got taken to the cleaners.

The main question in my mind isn't why the animals in the ad are so expensive, but why are the rest of them so dang cheap? In most other species of snakes, a breedable adult female for $400.00 would be considered a bargain. Considering the time, resources and feeding that go into raising a ball python to an adult, especially considering the low birth rate. $400.00 SHOULD be a good price. Unfortunatly, thanks to cheap imports, normal ball pythons have become cheap throw away junk animals. Personally I find it very strange that this one species of snake is both the most expensive and the cheapest snake in the reptile trade.

Mark

>>I'm sorry but I can't see how some of these people can sleep at night. I mean almost $400 shipped for adult female BP's is freaking nutz in my opinion!!! Do people really pay that?? If so, I've got 62 for sale that should go next year for sure!!!! I understand that some of the co-dominant/dominant traits as well the higher dollar morphs have increased the demand for "ready to go" females but that is just too sick. I still see visibly healthy, mostly flawless LTC animals at every show I attend available for under $100 and it's not rare to see them for 1/2 that (by show patrons looking to sell/trade) so this is only my 2 cents but man, that's pretty sad. Am I jumping the gun here?? Are they really worth that??? It just seems that since BP's are HOT right now some are taking total advantage of that and looking for a sucker...FACT: In the last 2 months I've purchased THREE adult females - super clean - all over 1,400 grams for a grand total of $110 for ALL THREE not each. Now I know that's a very good deal but still...do the math...opinions greatly appreciated.

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